Airmanship at Ardmore.

[Got the horn]

The big Red Sheds make good reporting points.......just an observation

[travnz]

What do you expect from Student/Training Pilots.
Nobody is perfect, I can guarantee that you were once a student pilot, surely you must know what it is like trying to learn all the ins and outs of aviation?
You are going to make mistakes and I bet most people learn from them

Now lets be honest, this is the first time I have heard of someone actually landing at Kelly Field This is possibly why people treat it like they do. Lets be honest its nothing more than an Ag strip.

[pakeha-boy]

....after reading this thread.....I now have more appreciation in climbing to FL 390...staying up there and out of trouble....and not getting a tounge-lashing from you blokes...or having to do anything with that bloody green barn.....

I,m thankful I get babysat all day....do this,do that.....makes me think my # is not all that bad......

[haughtney1]

Here here PB. give me a canarsi onto 13L at JFK anytime of the week.....mayby all that ETOPS plotting aint so bad after all, at least there aren't too many red or green sheds mid atlantic to get shouted at about

Kiwi Blue

As far as I'm concerned, local procedural knowledge includes information of this nature that is immediately pertinent to the intended operation

So are you suggesting a group of aeroclub members lie in wait for the days when rwy14 is in use...to make sure "the folks from not round ere" are set straight as to the dangers of mountain flying?
Mayby you could petition the CAA to ban anyone unfamiliar with QN and its surrounds?

[kiwiblue]

haughtney1: I expect better from you. That suggestion is at best peurile. You know damn well what I mean.

With 14 in use most days there is absolutely no need for aeroclub members (your suggestion, not mine) or anyone else to 'lie in wait' for anyone. What I am saying is that if asked, the information offered will include reference at least to the false horizon and terrain proximity on the 14 departure most likely in use on the day.

[Nikai]

Student pilots

Its not unusual for the training area to be crowded and if using prominent geographical features (eg. quarry lake, the big green shed, hotel du vin, pokeno paddocks) means that student pilots are making radio calls, rather than trying to figure out how many miles N/S/E/W they are from NZME, personally I'm happy. I can see how some of these could be confusing for people transiting the area however, hopefully a pilot travelling through an unfamiliar training area would be keeping an adequate lookout to avoid any issues. Airmanship around NZAR/NZME is obviously going to be an issue with so many solo students and so many training flights. The point about being a student is that these people are still learning! This means the actual flying skills and the airmanship that accompanies them. 6080ft and FL440 are exactly right, if you run into a problem contact the CFI of the school concerned. Like all flight training organisations those at NZAR have good and bad instructors and students alike, in the case of solo students they might not even be aware of what they are doing wrong. It might not be an offence worth filing on, but if you're concerned try bringing it to someone's attention so it can be dealt with. I know its not the pilot way, but how about increasing awareness of these things rather than just whinging?

[haughtney1]

Kiwi Blue, I WASN'T being puerile, I was playing the devils advocate..which I do a lot of on this board.
At least now however....we actually know what you were trying to say..

What I am saying is that if asked, the information offered will include reference at least to the false horizon and terrain proximity on the 14 departure most likely in use on the day.

rather than having to interpret or read between the lines of your previous statements.
As it happens, I think your final statement conveys what I've lamented privately for years with my NZ flying mates, and that is the loss of the culture of openness at the local aeroclub.
To often I've found when I come home for a visit...and do a bit of flying, you pitch up at the local club house (to pay landing fee's etc...) only to be met with suspicious contempt.
I thought it was just me, but I've had plenty of other "normal" mates say the same very thing.
Kiwi Blue... it appears that you are an individual that believes that you can help and have something to offer, thats about as good as it gets in my book.

[FL440]

Kiwiblue- I totally agree with regard to courtesy! Back when i was instructing i did a few south island trips as a Multi B Cat with 1500 hrs and i had not dont alot of flying in south island, maybe 50 hrs, so i would consider myself ver unfamiliar with the region, we rang the wakatipu aeroclub for a brief prior to arriving in QN and a few days later when we wished to fly into Milford, we also got a very extensive breif from one of the scenic pilots!
I think like anything, it only takes a 'few' to spoil it for the majority! And again, back to the original topic i think that there are alot of good pilots coming out of the AR region but there will always be that "few"

FL440: likewise, I have no wish for my comments to be misinterpreted. It is not the students I blame for their shortcomings, but the organisations that train them. Whilst the training offered may be appropriate to achieve a minimum standard for entry to the majors, the emphasis on the majors as a part of that training serves the students poorly in the environments that are being thrust upon them as a part of their training

Again, i think with the recent introduction of the magical 'training standards guide' from ASL, i think alot of that expereince is now hard to pass on as a student is now prepared to pass a flight test rather than prepared to be a commercial Pilot, i beleive alot of that is now left to the operation that they join be it scenic flying in QN or mountain air etc....i agree that this is where some of the short comings are!

With regards to aircraft coming down to the south, i know in the past the organisation that i was with, we had a policy that there must be an instructor in each aircraft and at least one B cat on the trip. We knew that with the level of experience some of these PPLs had that they would find the south island a very daunting experience, and as i preciously said the instructors were certainly not afraid to speak up and ask the locals, why wouldnt you? its free and you learn something! Fantastic

[qtn]

Kiwiblue, you and I must have worked together, somewhere along the line. I agree that the standard and arrogance of these institution pilots is is apalling. We were even told by one of their instuctors (on a day when no other commercial operator were flying due to the weather) that they would be ok because they are instructors.

[mattyj]

Now you know how the guys from Pukekohe East feel for all these years

[haughtney1]

Matty, are you flying out of Pukee East? (thats about 5 mins down the road from my NZ manor )

[kiwiblue]

qtn: quite possibly. What you report sounds nauseatingly familiar.

[FL440]

Guys,
I presume from the way you guys speak you are instructors?

If so, i presume that pilots coming out of the 'south' are perfect?


What are your thoughts on how some of the airliners operate? How do you feel about an operator based in Auckland ie Eagle, Nelson, Airwork, National....etc flying into QN without a breifing from 'the locals' and that the checks are conducted by someone who is not a local?

Just another point to consider?

[slackie]

FL440...is that not why AIP pg QN 45.1 etc are stamped "For Approved Operators Only"? So that they get the required training by pseudo-locals and use equipment appropriate for the job at hand??

[Now there's a term worth adopting...pseudo-local]


[Edited for format]

[clack100]

Matty, are you flying out of Pukee East? (thats about 5 mins down the road from my NZ manor

I must admit to operating out of Puke. Great fun if you can dodge the 172's on finals but not on frequency..
Yeah I know, here we go again, "on the wrong frequency, blah blah"

[FL440]

Slackie - good point, certainly for the Rnav's. But absaloutely nothing stopping a freshly qualified IF pilot going and having a crack at the VOR/DME Alfa Etc?

I was thinking with regard to some of the stuff that has been said with regard to Mercer/Ardmore and poor radio calls, heres a thought, have you flown through Alps traffic and listened to some of the radio calls there? I could not make any sense of what they were saying, yet im sure if you were a local operator it would of made total sense????

So surely this is as bad the the 'green shed'?

[NZ06AR]

People.... I have to say that this has, to a degree been blown way out.... with regards to comments made about the averageness of radio calls in the Mercer MBZ area, I have to say that there are always going to be people that do not agree or like the way people report out there, also don't forget that some students are going to be nervous and muck it up, we all have, it is a learning curve, but lets be honest how many published reporting points are actually in that area? For people to be reporting at more precise points, which are not hard to find, is a good thing, rather than something to have a rant about...

FL440- i have to agree with the point you make about Alps traffic, with regard to understanding position reports, but i do not think the use of 'the big green shed' is such a bad thing.

NZ06AR

[Wombat35]

NZ06AR, I agree, Ardmore and the surrounding areas are primarily a training environment. So it's a VERY foolish person who fly's around relying on radio calls without looking outside!

I have found the AFS guys great (get to know them) and I have flown 200+ hours in the AR circuit in the last 12 Months with no major incidents....

It's all about a bit of respect, it's a busy place, instead of pushing the tx button and having a spit, or whining about being cut off etc, just stop have a think that everyone else may not have your experience...

If guys are doing big circuits, I just ask XYZ, may I just pop in front of you...? Never been a problem...

Interesting that most of the slagging comments are from guys, who should know better... you can't come to Ardmore and expect the circuit to be perfect, aircraft free, with radio calls clipped to perfection...

Why not share some of you experience to make things better... safer...

I'd be very interested to know your thoughts..

Cheers

Wombat

[haughtney1]

It's all about a bit of respect, it's a busy place, instead of pushing the tx button and having a spit, or whining about being cut off etc, just stop have a think that everyone else may not have your experience...

Reminds me of a story doing the rounds a few years back when there was an ATC service at AR.

Grizzled old instructor "tower..XXX fu%king off to the training area for 20 minutes"
Immediate response by well known TWR guy "aircraft saying fu%k on the radio identify yourself........." followed by 10 seconds radio silence then..........all different responders
"I didn't say fu%k on the radio"
"I didn't say fu%k on the radio either..who said fu%k on the radio"
"me neither I didn't say fu%k on the radio"
and so on and so on...

[Wombat35]

Yeah, I'm F^&king off not F^&king stupid

Oh well, I'm off to practice my calls before yet another couple of hours in the circuit this arvo.. and I have to think of some new area to run up....

now that should be a good topic about Ardmore...

Is it safe to put a run up area upwind of a main taxi way?

Ohh but it's for the noise....

Wonder what noise a Cessna makes as it's blown over taxiing behind my DC3...

Or what noise does an instructor make when his fabric aircraft is peppered with loose stones....