Tailwheel techniques
Grandpa Aerotart
Here is an article on flying a Mustang for the very first time written by a fella who was not very experienced at the time...early 70s...at least not very experienced in comparison to what would be asked to solo someones Mustang today.
It basically agees with everything I have ever heard from people who do/have flown Mustangs...basically they were easy to fly after you got over the psycological hurdle of actually being sat in a Mustang...remember these aircraft were flown in the 40s and 50s by 200hr pilots...by the thousands.
I asked Col Pay years ago if the story I had heard was true....that he used to insist potential pilots of his Mustang flew in his 185 first...he said it was.
http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepMustangBurch.6.html
It basically agees with everything I have ever heard from people who do/have flown Mustangs...basically they were easy to fly after you got over the psycological hurdle of actually being sat in a Mustang...remember these aircraft were flown in the 40s and 50s by 200hr pilots...by the thousands.
I asked Col Pay years ago if the story I had heard was true....that he used to insist potential pilots of his Mustang flew in his 185 first...he said it was.
http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepMustangBurch.6.html
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silly Old Git
Thread Starter
The P-51 is a pussycat
Rather like a big Chipmunk
The view over the nose is fantastic when that tail is up and on final its (like looking down the long nose of a Pilatus Porter)
Keeping the plugs cleared on approach in the circuit with a small bursts of power cause mild yaws no more so than a 185
The noise is madness .
Rather like a big Chipmunk
The view over the nose is fantastic when that tail is up and on final its (like looking down the long nose of a Pilatus Porter)
Keeping the plugs cleared on approach in the circuit with a small bursts of power cause mild yaws no more so than a 185
The noise is madness .
Grandpa Aerotart
Rather like a big Chipmunk
Somewhere along the way these aircraft gained reputations they just don't deserve...probably from pilots like the one in the video...DCA Examiners of Airmen back in the 'good old days' who had flown them in Korea/WW2 (or actually probably hadn't, truth be known) were as guilty of promoting the BS too...good for their egos I suspect...the few DCA EoAs that I know DID fly them were unanimous in their opinion that they were just a joy to fly. Certainly they were, apparently, a little twitchy in pitch with a full fuselage fuel tank, drop tanks and ammo bins...operating at wartime gross weights and aft CofGs...but they don't get flown that way anymore and haven't been since they went out of military service in the 70s (believe it or not it was as recent as that in South America and such like).
I came close some years back...one of these days
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Grandad used to tell me Spit Mk 2 was the nicest to fly, the perfect balance between control input and result.....as the later marks he flew (up to the PR19) got heavier you needed to put a bit more muscle into it, although they were more stable creatures in the circuit..as long as you didn't move the throttle too far forward..and find yourself unleashing 2350hp of griffon..which would roll you on your back soon as you could think "uh oh"
He also reckoned the mustang in its b,c, and d variants were pretty docile machines.....the aircraft that scared him the most was the Mosquito..particulalrly with a load in it
I suppose it all comes down to what you are used too, personally I've found the 180/185 loaded or light to be the most fun piston powered aircraft all round.
The guy that taught me to fly them was an ex top dressing pilot...he knew his stuff...and would never wheel land anything with a tail-wheel
He also reckoned the mustang in its b,c, and d variants were pretty docile machines.....the aircraft that scared him the most was the Mosquito..particulalrly with a load in it
I suppose it all comes down to what you are used too, personally I've found the 180/185 loaded or light to be the most fun piston powered aircraft all round.
The guy that taught me to fly them was an ex top dressing pilot...he knew his stuff...and would never wheel land anything with a tail-wheel
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Perth Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is, and always will be a controversial subject, but for what its worth, I have been flying predominantly tailwheel types for over 25 years, from the DC3 and SJN-4 to the S1D, S1C S1S and S2B Pitts, via the late John Pennys Sopwith Triplane replica. I currently own a 1946 J-3 Cub and have previously owned numerous others, e.g. Stinson 108-2, Stolpe SA300, Fokker E111 'Eindekker' replica.
If you routinely 'wheeled' a J3 Cub or a Luscombe you would inevitably ground-loop it, not maybe, definitely. If you wheel-on a single seat Pitts at the required 90-100mph you would have a very good chance of terminating both the aircraft and yourself, yet three-pointed it will roll dead straight until down to about 40mph when a slight touch of rudder is all that is required to keep it that way. On the other hand, three-pointing a Stinson 108-1 or 108-2 (the 'small-tail' models) is possible, but extremely unwise as the tail-down rudder authority is abysmal, and you can only keep it straight with brakes so a tail down bounce will result in zero control in yaw while airborne. In my experience there is no all-encompassing 'right' way to land a conventional gear aircraft, it depends greatly on the type, and the circumstances. I would be wary of any advice that claims otherwise
If you routinely 'wheeled' a J3 Cub or a Luscombe you would inevitably ground-loop it, not maybe, definitely. If you wheel-on a single seat Pitts at the required 90-100mph you would have a very good chance of terminating both the aircraft and yourself, yet three-pointed it will roll dead straight until down to about 40mph when a slight touch of rudder is all that is required to keep it that way. On the other hand, three-pointing a Stinson 108-1 or 108-2 (the 'small-tail' models) is possible, but extremely unwise as the tail-down rudder authority is abysmal, and you can only keep it straight with brakes so a tail down bounce will result in zero control in yaw while airborne. In my experience there is no all-encompassing 'right' way to land a conventional gear aircraft, it depends greatly on the type, and the circumstances. I would be wary of any advice that claims otherwise
Last edited by VH-BOX; 12th Jul 2007 at 11:50.
Grandpa Aerotart
I found the same thing with the Helio Courier...no one to show me so had to nut it out myself...it just didn't strike me as an aeroplane that would like wheel landings so I never tried...only ever 3 pointed it
When I owned a 185 and/or was flying them a lot I would happily wheel land or 3 point them depending on the circumstances...now I only fly them every so often I only 3 point them...the sprung steel undercarriage on the Cessnas takes a certain 'touch' to wheel land and, for me at least, once every year or so is not enough to keep that touch.
Same with the Tiger Moth...I very rarey ever wheel landed one...mostly 3 pointers...except maybe on the odd occassion I landed one on bitumen.
When I owned a 185 and/or was flying them a lot I would happily wheel land or 3 point them depending on the circumstances...now I only fly them every so often I only 3 point them...the sprung steel undercarriage on the Cessnas takes a certain 'touch' to wheel land and, for me at least, once every year or so is not enough to keep that touch.
Same with the Tiger Moth...I very rarey ever wheel landed one...mostly 3 pointers...except maybe on the odd occassion I landed one on bitumen.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 12th Jul 2007 at 11:58.
Silly Old Git
Thread Starter
Having watched the video a couple more times it has occured to me that to manage such a cocked up landing in a P-51 the pilot must have dropped dead on short final 
Haugtney
What the poor old bugger (and he would be old if he dung dusted in Kiwi in 185s)probably couldnt remembry was the instinctive probe for the strip with a wheel in the tail down wheeler set up. You didnt even realise you were doing it
Good them 185s were, they had a cigarette lighter and the trim wheel on the roof and landing lights if you wanted to bugger off for a Tiki tour at night to see the girlfriend
Haugtney
The guy that taught me to fly them was an ex top dressing pilot...he knew his stuff...and would never wheel land anything with a tail-wheel
Good them 185s were, they had a cigarette lighter and the trim wheel on the roof and landing lights if you wanted to bugger off for a Tiki tour at night to see the girlfriend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Actually tinny...I reckon he was pushing 100 when he was teaching me, although to be honest I was always much better at drinking beer than I was a tail wheel student
Having said that, he did allude to the tailwheel probe you speak off.....its just that he could never do it successfully on a regular basis as it was always blowing like a B'stard when he worked
. (for those who don't know..its MUCH better to spread Super when its windy..cos then they cocky needs ya back next year on account that the Super went on "a bit thin")
I've only taken a 185 into friendly strips....none of those trouser filling PNG jobbies.
Having said that, he did allude to the tailwheel probe you speak off.....its just that he could never do it successfully on a regular basis as it was always blowing like a B'stard when he worked
. (for those who don't know..its MUCH better to spread Super when its windy..cos then they cocky needs ya back next year on account that the Super went on "a bit thin")I've only taken a 185 into friendly strips....none of those trouser filling PNG jobbies.
From the P-51 Flight manual;
"A stall in the P-51 is comparatively mild. The airplane does not whip at the stall, but rolls slowly and has very little tendency to drop into a spin. You get ample warning of any type of stall. In a straight power-off stall you feel a slight elevator buffet about 3 to 4 mph above the stall
"A stall in the P-51 is comparatively mild. The airplane does not whip at the stall, but rolls slowly and has very little tendency to drop into a spin. You get ample warning of any type of stall. In a straight power-off stall you feel a slight elevator buffet about 3 to 4 mph above the stall
When no fuel is carried in the fuselage tank, slight tail buffeting occurs about two or three knots above the stall, at which one wing drops gently.
BUT...with fuselage tank full or half full, there is no buffeting to give warning of the approaching stall, but a series of stick reversals occurs just above stalling speed; At the stall, the right wing drops sharply, and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop.....The aircraft sinks rapidly as stalling speed is approached...if the control column is held back at the stall, a wing will drop very rapidly and the aircraft will become inverted....power-on spins should never be intentionally performed....as many as five or six turns may be made after recovery action and as much as 9000-10,000ft may be lost.
Good things them 185s
Dear Mr Tin,
I've flown 185's of all vintages, but never seen one with a trim wheel on the roof. You sure you are recalling the right machine? Maybe it was a Beaver you flew to visit that girlfriend.
I've flown 185's of all vintages, but never seen one with a trim wheel on the roof. You sure you are recalling the right machine? Maybe it was a Beaver you flew to visit that girlfriend.
Silly Old Git
Thread Starter
Dear Mr Chimbu
We learn something new everyday
Kiwi topdressing 185s (some 180's)wot I was an exponent of,had the trim wheel modified and mounted flat on the roof with a big nob on so as yer didnt need to get yer head down in the cockpit trimming while flying dangerously low,and to speed up trim setting on turn arounds
And it wasnt me visitin the girlfriend ..you may recall a certain 727 Capt. pre '89?
We learn something new everyday
Kiwi topdressing 185s (some 180's)wot I was an exponent of,had the trim wheel modified and mounted flat on the roof with a big nob on so as yer didnt need to get yer head down in the cockpit trimming while flying dangerously low,and to speed up trim setting on turn arounds
And it wasnt me visitin the girlfriend ..you may recall a certain 727 Capt. pre '89?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Perth Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the P-51 Flight manual;
"A stall in the P-51 is comparatively mild. The airplane does not whip at the stall, but rolls slowly and has very little tendency to drop into a spin. You get ample warning of any type of stall. In a straight power-off stall you feel a slight elevator buffet about 3 to 4 mph above the stall
"A stall in the P-51 is comparatively mild. The airplane does not whip at the stall, but rolls slowly and has very little tendency to drop into a spin. You get ample warning of any type of stall. In a straight power-off stall you feel a slight elevator buffet about 3 to 4 mph above the stall
This however, from RAAF Publication No. 780 (September 1950) Pilot's Notes for Mustang. Page 32 Para 46 (b):
When no fuel is carried in the fuselage tank, slight tail buffeting occurs about two or three knots above the stall, at which one wing drops gently.
BUT...with fuselage tank full or half full, there is no buffeting to give warning of the approaching stall, but a series of stick reversals occurs just above stalling speed; At the stall, the right wing drops sharply, and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop.....The aircraft sinks rapidly as stalling speed is approached...if the control column is held back at the stall, a wing will drop very rapidly and the aircraft will become inverted....power-on spins should never be intentionally performed....as many as five or six turns may be made after recovery action and as much as 9000-10,000ft may be lost.
When no fuel is carried in the fuselage tank, slight tail buffeting occurs about two or three knots above the stall, at which one wing drops gently.
BUT...with fuselage tank full or half full, there is no buffeting to give warning of the approaching stall, but a series of stick reversals occurs just above stalling speed; At the stall, the right wing drops sharply, and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop.....The aircraft sinks rapidly as stalling speed is approached...if the control column is held back at the stall, a wing will drop very rapidly and the aircraft will become inverted....power-on spins should never be intentionally performed....as many as five or six turns may be made after recovery action and as much as 9000-10,000ft may be lost.
Although not evidence that he did in fact stall off the bounce, in the video the port wing drops gently, in the P51-D in which I got a (cramped) back seat ride, the port wing dropped gently, each example fitting the description in both documents of a stall with the fuselage tank empty.
Given that the RAAF document describes a sharp starboard wing drop, it would seem that either the fuel state in the fuselage tank significantly alters the characteristics at the stall, or the CAC built aircraft has slightly different characteristics to the original North American built one. Having only had a 20 minute ride as a fare paying tourist in a P51-D, I am not qualified to comment, it would be interesting to hear the opinion of someone who has flown both versions, or indeed either.
Last edited by VH-BOX; 13th Jul 2007 at 00:36.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by VH-BOX
Wow! I have watched that several times and still haven't a clue how did he missed seeing a bloody truck within his wingspan?
Where's that gene-pool chlorine when you need it...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Perth Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In conclusion, I think this chappy needs to get back into a Citabria.
Trim knob on the roof
Well I'll be..............I have indeed learned something today!
Makes a lot of sense actually, and I'm sure it also kept the super from fouling the trim mechanism too. Kiwi innovation at its best.
Don't think I knew any 727 Capts that long ago, but it wouldn't be the first time a keen young aviator has "borrowed" the boss's balus to bring comfort to a lonely lass.
Makes a lot of sense actually, and I'm sure it also kept the super from fouling the trim mechanism too. Kiwi innovation at its best.
Don't think I knew any 727 Capts that long ago, but it wouldn't be the first time a keen young aviator has "borrowed" the boss's balus to bring comfort to a lonely lass.
Silly Old Git
Thread Starter
trim on the roof
I searched the interweb thingy and cant find a reference to it all.
I would presume that all the old ag 185s have long since been converted back to normal
It was a great idea ,the trim went full up to down in about 1 and a half turns as I recall. As you know the normal trim on a 185 is woefully slow
When you were on a sowing run it only needed a reach up to tweak the trim wheel and it was great for split arse turns rather than cranking the trim on the floor which was also made more awkward by the intrusion of the fecking great hopper in the cabin
That 185 guy that posts on here may have a bit more to say on it
I would presume that all the old ag 185s have long since been converted back to normal
It was a great idea ,the trim went full up to down in about 1 and a half turns as I recall. As you know the normal trim on a 185 is woefully slow
When you were on a sowing run it only needed a reach up to tweak the trim wheel and it was great for split arse turns rather than cranking the trim on the floor which was also made more awkward by the intrusion of the fecking great hopper in the cabin
That 185 guy that posts on here may have a bit more to say on it
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Twyford, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now Now Children......don't think I am not watching youse.!!
Chuckles....the rudder cables are to be sorted early next week....
we don't wan't a ground loop do we.??
I must say, having owned three Taildraggers now, that there are taildraggers and there are taildraggers. The Jodel for example is a pussycat. The Cessna 180 is not but none of them like crosswinds.
Chuckles....the rudder cables are to be sorted early next week....
we don't wan't a ground loop do we.??
I must say, having owned three Taildraggers now, that there are taildraggers and there are taildraggers. The Jodel for example is a pussycat. The Cessna 180 is not but none of them like crosswinds.