Silly question re: aero's
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Silly question re: aero's
I was reading this regulation earlier from CAO 40.0
Does this mean that I can perform a "fast" roll legally?
2.5 The holder of an aeroplane pilot licence may carry out:
(a) a barrel roll; or
(b) a loop; or
(c) a slow roll; or
(d) a roll off the top; or
(e) a stall turn;
if an authorised flight instructor, or an approved person, who gave the holder flying training in the manoeuvre:
(f) is satisfied that the holder can safely perform the manoeuvre; and
(g) makes an entry to that effect in the holder’s personal log book.
Does this mean that I can perform a "fast" roll legally?
2.5 The holder of an aeroplane pilot licence may carry out:
(a) a barrel roll; or
(b) a loop; or
(c) a slow roll; or
(d) a roll off the top; or
(e) a stall turn;
if an authorised flight instructor, or an approved person, who gave the holder flying training in the manoeuvre:
(f) is satisfied that the holder can safely perform the manoeuvre; and
(g) makes an entry to that effect in the holder’s personal log book.
stop doing them!
Once you have the "slow roll" perfected, why could you not do a "quicker roll" and progress through the "even quicker roll" to the "quick roll" and if you are good, finishing off with a "really quick roll" ?
Dr
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On the off-chance this is a serious question:
No. A slow-roll is the name given to a specific maneouvre. Unlike the aileron roll or the barrell roll, it involves negative 'G'. So your fast-roll is out of the question.
It does, however, apear you can perform a "roll off the bottom" quite legally.
Ditto the "unstalled turn", which would be the case since the aircraft is in a state of near-zero 'G' at the top of the turn.
You'll have to find new names for them both as I have recently copyrighted those names.
No. A slow-roll is the name given to a specific maneouvre. Unlike the aileron roll or the barrell roll, it involves negative 'G'. So your fast-roll is out of the question.
It does, however, apear you can perform a "roll off the bottom" quite legally.
Ditto the "unstalled turn", which would be the case since the aircraft is in a state of near-zero 'G' at the top of the turn.
You'll have to find new names for them both as I have recently copyrighted those names.
unstalled turn?
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It was actually a serious question.
I was thinking that a slow roll involves hanging upside down for a moment, whereas a quick roll is one more like an aileron roll where no negative G's are achieved. It doesn't actually say "no aileron rolls."
It's just that it was so specific about the slow roll... however if you say that is an actual maneouvre that does make sense.
Can you elaborate on "Roll off the bottom" and the "unstalled turn for me" if you think they are legal?
Is a wingover fully legal? (without aero endorsement)
It's nice to have a few gentle (and legal) moves for entertainment purposes to break up a long flight.
I was thinking that a slow roll involves hanging upside down for a moment, whereas a quick roll is one more like an aileron roll where no negative G's are achieved. It doesn't actually say "no aileron rolls."
It's just that it was so specific about the slow roll... however if you say that is an actual maneouvre that does make sense.
Can you elaborate on "Roll off the bottom" and the "unstalled turn for me" if you think they are legal?
Is a wingover fully legal? (without aero endorsement)
It's nice to have a few gentle (and legal) moves for entertainment purposes to break up a long flight.
"It's nice to have a few gentle (and legal) moves for entertainment purposes to break up a long flight"
XXX
All jokes aside. Here's some good advice from the mad Dr.
If you want to do aeros - get an aerobatic aeroplane and go do aeros. If you are not endorsed - get an aero instructor and an aerobatic aeroplane and go do aeros.
If you are bored on a long flight - practice your map reading!
However, a long flight, boredom and aeros together in the same time frame may well breakup more than you expect!
Dr
XXX
All jokes aside. Here's some good advice from the mad Dr.
If you want to do aeros - get an aerobatic aeroplane and go do aeros. If you are not endorsed - get an aero instructor and an aerobatic aeroplane and go do aeros.
If you are bored on a long flight - practice your map reading!
However, a long flight, boredom and aeros together in the same time frame may well breakup more than you expect!
Dr
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I was reading this regulation earlier from CAO 40.0
Does this mean that I can perform a "fast" roll legally?
2.5 The holder of an aeroplane pilot licence may carry out:
.....
Does this mean that I can perform a "fast" roll legally?
2.5 The holder of an aeroplane pilot licence may carry out:
.....
Paragraph 2.4 of the very same CAO reads:
"Subject to paragraph 2.5, the holder of an aeroplane pilot licence must not, while flying an aeroplane as pilot in command, carry out acrobatic flight unless: ....."
I also endorse the good Dr's comments. Aeros without training and/or when you're bored have plenty of potential for disaster.
Last edited by Unhinged; 22nd Jun 2007 at 08:27. Reason: Syntax
It's a kind of weird regulation, as they tend to be sometimes, trying to stipulate what kind of manoeuvres can and can't be flown once someone has been signed up safe for aerobatics, as it names some but not others. It'd be more sensible if they said something like:
'Pilots may only fly aerobatics in aircraft approved for such manoeuvres when they have been trained and certified by an authorised instructor to operate an aircraft at up to 180 degrees roll and pitch attitudes from the horizon and at speeds less than stall speed, at heights not less than the minima laid down in para XXX of this section.
They must also have conducted not less than x hours of unusual attitude recovery practice and have successfully completed incipient and fully developed spin recovery training to the full extent allowed by the flight manual of the aerobatic aircraft in which they undergo training.'
Or something along those lines.
Basically, if you're not trained to do aerobatics, forget it. Don't exceed about +/- 30 pitch or +/- 60 roll. If you get the urge to do an unauthorised slow roll, don't be a ********!
'Pilots may only fly aerobatics in aircraft approved for such manoeuvres when they have been trained and certified by an authorised instructor to operate an aircraft at up to 180 degrees roll and pitch attitudes from the horizon and at speeds less than stall speed, at heights not less than the minima laid down in para XXX of this section.
They must also have conducted not less than x hours of unusual attitude recovery practice and have successfully completed incipient and fully developed spin recovery training to the full extent allowed by the flight manual of the aerobatic aircraft in which they undergo training.'
Or something along those lines.
Basically, if you're not trained to do aerobatics, forget it. Don't exceed about +/- 30 pitch or +/- 60 roll. If you get the urge to do an unauthorised slow roll, don't be a ********!
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Technically it is an order not a regulation. CAR 155 is the head of power regulation for CAO 40.0 and CAR 155 (2) states:
straight and steady stalls or turns in which the angle of bank does not exceed 60 degrees shall be deemed not to be acrobatic flight.
So, greater than 60 degrees and you need the endorsement.
The bigger picture is that if you intend to push the limits, you are an idiot. Go get yourself some training in this area and have some real fun in a safe environment.
straight and steady stalls or turns in which the angle of bank does not exceed 60 degrees shall be deemed not to be acrobatic flight.
So, greater than 60 degrees and you need the endorsement.
The bigger picture is that if you intend to push the limits, you are an idiot. Go get yourself some training in this area and have some real fun in a safe environment.
Jedi,
Sorry for the thread drift but Scotty is right.
The Americans call it a "Hammerhead". "Stall turn" is a misnomer as the aircraft is never actually stalled.
Sorry for the thread drift but Scotty is right.
The Americans call it a "Hammerhead". "Stall turn" is a misnomer as the aircraft is never actually stalled.
straight and steady stalls or turns in which the angle of bank does not exceed 60 degrees shall be deemed not to be acrobatic flight
Well, you could get the student to practice Vx and Vy climbs and climbing turns to get to 3500 before starting stalls.
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It's been a while but I'm trying to recall if climbing at Vy or Vx or Vanythingelse actually makes a difference to the ROC in a Tommo Hawk....??
A wingover is a sissy's "stall turn".
The Unstalled Turn is exactly the same as the Stall Turn except that you have to pay me a copyright fee every time you perform one.
The roll-off-the-bottom is a little move I do not recommend. To perform it, you simply fly along straight-and-level, as per normal. Then for no particular reason, you just push the prong all the way forward. Houses get bigger.
Wait til your eyeballs begin to bleed and the houses appear upside down and the horizon re-appears, then stick neutral and roll hard to the left or right, as takes your fancy, and continue as if nothing happened.
Pax really love this kind of thing.
I believe a wingover is quite legal because all it is is a climbing turn gone wrong. But I'm also quite certain that my advice and most other advice given freely here on pprune, legal or otherwise, is probably not worth a pinch of snot.
Yes, you're quite right and I fully agree with your outlook here. You are a man's man and a real pilot after my own heart. Seriously.
You could always perform endless steep turns up to the 'G' limit of the airplane to give your pax a thrill.
According to the Laws of Physics as espoused by some of the pros around here, you could probably do a level-flight 6 'G' turn without exceeding 45° AOB if you initiate it from The Step. Nice and legal-like...
Or where you thinking of a wingover...
Can you elaborate on "Roll off the bottom" and the "unstalled turn for me" if you think they are legal?
The roll-off-the-bottom is a little move I do not recommend. To perform it, you simply fly along straight-and-level, as per normal. Then for no particular reason, you just push the prong all the way forward. Houses get bigger.
Wait til your eyeballs begin to bleed and the houses appear upside down and the horizon re-appears, then stick neutral and roll hard to the left or right, as takes your fancy, and continue as if nothing happened.
Pax really love this kind of thing.
Is a wingover fully legal? (without aero endorsement)
It's nice to have a few gentle (and legal) moves for entertainment purposes to break up a long flight.
You could always perform endless steep turns up to the 'G' limit of the airplane to give your pax a thrill.
According to the Laws of Physics as espoused by some of the pros around here, you could probably do a level-flight 6 'G' turn without exceeding 45° AOB if you initiate it from The Step. Nice and legal-like...
Come on now Scotty,
Wingovers are a bit more than that! I'm sure there's a good number of us out there who've had the old "positive g coordinated pitching and rolling manoueuvre used to convert speed to height, height to speed or to position for aerobatics" drummed into the head like a nursery rhyme.
Can be done to extremes of attitude or quite gently remaining within the accepted bounds of non-aerobatic flight... no bunting allowed though.
"According to the Laws of Physics as espoused by some of the pros around here, you could probably do a level-flight 6 'G' turn without exceeding 45° AOB if you initiate it from The Step. Nice and legal-like..." - absolutely correct, but only if done when launching off a conveyor belt.
Your 'roll-off-the-bottom' sounds in some ways reminiscent of an ugly manoueuvre that was popular at one stage in the CT-4 : drill along S&L at 80kts, then push everything into one corner (ie full forward stick, full aileron and full rudder in the same direction) - round you would go in a quick, weird but surprisingly gentle mini outside barrell roll ... didn't take up much vertical room either. Definitely not pretty.
Wingovers are a bit more than that! I'm sure there's a good number of us out there who've had the old "positive g coordinated pitching and rolling manoueuvre used to convert speed to height, height to speed or to position for aerobatics" drummed into the head like a nursery rhyme.
Can be done to extremes of attitude or quite gently remaining within the accepted bounds of non-aerobatic flight... no bunting allowed though.
"According to the Laws of Physics as espoused by some of the pros around here, you could probably do a level-flight 6 'G' turn without exceeding 45° AOB if you initiate it from The Step. Nice and legal-like..." - absolutely correct, but only if done when launching off a conveyor belt.
Your 'roll-off-the-bottom' sounds in some ways reminiscent of an ugly manoueuvre that was popular at one stage in the CT-4 : drill along S&L at 80kts, then push everything into one corner (ie full forward stick, full aileron and full rudder in the same direction) - round you would go in a quick, weird but surprisingly gentle mini outside barrell roll ... didn't take up much vertical room either. Definitely not pretty.
No malice intended - innocent question follows.
AOTW,
If you wanted pretty, wouldn't you use opposite rudder? Like a Lomcevak? Or was this something else a bit different again?
***** Thread Creep Warning ******
If you wanted pretty, wouldn't you use opposite rudder? Like a Lomcevak? Or was this something else a bit different again?
***** Thread Creep Warning ******
Hi RG, hope you're cruising along well.
No, this wasn't a flick kind of thing - don't know who first came up with it, but it didn't involve stalling or tumbling, just a kind of quick corkscrewing outside barrel roll that was over in a couple of seconds seemingly, didn't use too much negative g and left you pretty much at the same height and speed as you started, as I recall. Just felt a bit weird being an outside thing.
Another good one I used to like that did use a flick was a kind of porteous cuban 8 - I think it was pull up with 120 kt, on reaching 80 hit full pro-spin controls and almost immediately take them out which would flick you upside down very quickly, then pull down around the loop and do the same thing again. Unlike other parrot aeros, you could do that all day and it wouldn't lose much height.
No, this wasn't a flick kind of thing - don't know who first came up with it, but it didn't involve stalling or tumbling, just a kind of quick corkscrewing outside barrel roll that was over in a couple of seconds seemingly, didn't use too much negative g and left you pretty much at the same height and speed as you started, as I recall. Just felt a bit weird being an outside thing.
Another good one I used to like that did use a flick was a kind of porteous cuban 8 - I think it was pull up with 120 kt, on reaching 80 hit full pro-spin controls and almost immediately take them out which would flick you upside down very quickly, then pull down around the loop and do the same thing again. Unlike other parrot aeros, you could do that all day and it wouldn't lose much height.
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I agree, Arm. Those wingovers were, indeed, warry but I was thinking of a certain mate of mine who once tried to show me a stall turn when he was really wimping out and not doing much more than a reasonable effort at a wingover. He didn't like flying straight up or straight down.
Forgot to mention, the Roll off the Bottom can be performed at a constant 1'G', just like a barrel roll - if flown correctly!
I never tried that thing you mentioned in the CT-4. And I gentle remember anything being gentle in that machine. Maybe it was my 'skills'...
Forgot to mention, the Roll off the Bottom can be performed at a constant 1'G', just like a barrel roll - if flown correctly!
I never tried that thing you mentioned in the CT-4. And I gentle remember anything being gentle in that machine. Maybe it was my 'skills'...
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No, this wasn't a flick kind of thing - don't know who first came up with it, but it didn't involve stalling or tumbling, just a kind of quick corkscrewing outside barrel roll that was over in a couple of seconds seemingly, didn't use too much negative g and left you pretty much at the same height and speed as you started, as I recall. Just felt a bit weird being an outside thing.
110KIAS, slight nose up attitude then push the stick into the top left hand corner along with lots of left rudder. Gives about -1.5g with hardly any ALT loss.