Logging PIC Time in the US as a 'Safety Pilot'
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Logging PIC Time in the US as a 'Safety Pilot'
I recently got my Australian CPL and am considering going to the US to build 100 hrs multi engine PIC time.
In the US you can log PIC time as a
safety pilot as long as the other pilot is under the hood in VFR conditions. (Far’s 91.109). The safety pilot can not log PIC if they enter IMC unless the safety pilot has a CFII and MEI and is giving dual.
Does anyone know whether you can log this 'VFR Safety Pilot PIC' time on N registered a/c with an Aussie license (with temporary US licence certificate)or would it have to be Co-Pilot time?
In the US you can log PIC time as a
safety pilot as long as the other pilot is under the hood in VFR conditions. (Far’s 91.109). The safety pilot can not log PIC if they enter IMC unless the safety pilot has a CFII and MEI and is giving dual.
Does anyone know whether you can log this 'VFR Safety Pilot PIC' time on N registered a/c with an Aussie license (with temporary US licence certificate)or would it have to be Co-Pilot time?
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Thanks Tomwato. I suppose the confussion that I have is that schools over there seem to advertise the whole 'safety pilot' thing as pilot in command. Therefore, there will be one of you in the left seat under the hood manipulating the controls in VFR and one in the right seat as a safey pilot in a visual supervisory role. I would personaly view this as copilot time not PIC.
I just dont want to log the time as PIC command if it should be Co pilot. Then again if it is an N registered a/c in US airspace with a 4 mth FAA license, should'nt you abide by their rules for logging time and not Australian time....a little confussed. CASA werent much help either!
I just dont want to log the time as PIC command if it should be Co pilot. Then again if it is an N registered a/c in US airspace with a 4 mth FAA license, should'nt you abide by their rules for logging time and not Australian time....a little confussed. CASA werent much help either!
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Aviator500
Your assesment is correct. It has been debated and wrangled over by many FSDO inspectors, pilots, students and whoever else for years. There is absolutely no provision to log SIC time in a light aircraft that is single pilot certified (unless it is flown under a program approved under part 135/ Charter).
Safety pilot as you described is to be logged as PIC. Strange but true.
MJB
PM if you need more info.
Your assesment is correct. It has been debated and wrangled over by many FSDO inspectors, pilots, students and whoever else for years. There is absolutely no provision to log SIC time in a light aircraft that is single pilot certified (unless it is flown under a program approved under part 135/ Charter).
Safety pilot as you described is to be logged as PIC. Strange but true.
MJB
PM if you need more info.
But any jobs of note, dictate that in the outlining of your experience to only include that time as PIC where you signed for the airplane or were the PIC designated by your company for the flight/operation (when two of you are type rated).
Be careful what you log, as you may just have to explain it one day! The co-pilot time in a king air is another one of those mysteries. You may be required to be there per a company's insurance req. but how valuable is the time when it is a single-pilot certified a/c? Crapola.
Be careful what you log, as you may just have to explain it one day! The co-pilot time in a king air is another one of those mysteries. You may be required to be there per a company's insurance req. but how valuable is the time when it is a single-pilot certified a/c? Crapola.
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So if time building in the states with an Australian ICAO CPL it would probably be best to make sure you only hire out a multi a/c with only yourself in it.
One school mentioned to me that you could time build in the left seat but an instructor would have to be in the right for insurance. As I would be using the controls and fully qualified I would view this as PIC if I state this before flying the a/c. I would just be concerned that the instructor would also log the time under their FAA Safety pilot rule as PIC and the fact that s/he had to be there for insurance purposes. Should I be concerned if they also log it? A Duchess is Single pilot operation and s/he would be doing this under their regulation not Australia's?
One school mentioned to me that you could time build in the left seat but an instructor would have to be in the right for insurance. As I would be using the controls and fully qualified I would view this as PIC if I state this before flying the a/c. I would just be concerned that the instructor would also log the time under their FAA Safety pilot rule as PIC and the fact that s/he had to be there for insurance purposes. Should I be concerned if they also log it? A Duchess is Single pilot operation and s/he would be doing this under their regulation not Australia's?
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It seems others have the same questions as Aviator500 in his/her PM.
Why ask CASA about logging flight time in the US? It has nothing to do with them. Log it in a different log book if you really want but I can’t see why anyone would care how it was logged as long as it was legally logged for the operation concerned in whatever country.
Like you said Aviator once you are rated on the aircraft you log PIC if you are the one flying. IF you or the aero club decides that you should have/ want an instructor with you, you still log PIC as you are rated in the aircraft, it’s that simple. Try not to make this complicated as it is really quite simple. The regs are clear on logging this time and there is absolutely no reference in the regs to insurance requirements and their need to carry an extra pilot in any capacity.
What the instructor logs is irrelevant to you! And by that I mean there is absolutely no requirement for an anyone (including an instructor) to log any particular flight time, except that which they intend to rely on for recency, or that aeronautical experience required for a certificate or rating. There are other provisions in Part 91 that provide for what the instructor can/should log.
For example. A student passes his/her multi engine rating and now wants to do the required training towards an instrument rating and a commercial certificate. The subsequent flying in the multi will be logged as PIC and Dual Received by the now multi rated pilot and the Instructor will log (if they want to) Dual Given and PIC. In this situation the regs state that the ‘student’ needs the instructor on board if they are to count this flight time towards the training/experience requirement for the instrument rating and commercial certificate. Despite ‘needing’ the instructor the regs still say they should log PIC time as they are manipulating the controls and they are rated on the aircraft
The safety pilot thing! Yes you can log PIC if you are a safety pilot in VMC conditions. This is so because the US regs make no provision for logging anything else. If you are in doubt at all, call any FSDO office and speak to an inspector. here
You go to the US, you get a US certificate (lic). You are now legal to fly and log flight time in a US registered aircraft. Australian/ICAO lic or whatever else really doesn’t come into it. Besides a US lic is an ICAO licence.
Why ask CASA about logging flight time in the US? It has nothing to do with them. Log it in a different log book if you really want but I can’t see why anyone would care how it was logged as long as it was legally logged for the operation concerned in whatever country.
Like you said Aviator once you are rated on the aircraft you log PIC if you are the one flying. IF you or the aero club decides that you should have/ want an instructor with you, you still log PIC as you are rated in the aircraft, it’s that simple. Try not to make this complicated as it is really quite simple. The regs are clear on logging this time and there is absolutely no reference in the regs to insurance requirements and their need to carry an extra pilot in any capacity.
What the instructor logs is irrelevant to you! And by that I mean there is absolutely no requirement for an anyone (including an instructor) to log any particular flight time, except that which they intend to rely on for recency, or that aeronautical experience required for a certificate or rating. There are other provisions in Part 91 that provide for what the instructor can/should log.
For example. A student passes his/her multi engine rating and now wants to do the required training towards an instrument rating and a commercial certificate. The subsequent flying in the multi will be logged as PIC and Dual Received by the now multi rated pilot and the Instructor will log (if they want to) Dual Given and PIC. In this situation the regs state that the ‘student’ needs the instructor on board if they are to count this flight time towards the training/experience requirement for the instrument rating and commercial certificate. Despite ‘needing’ the instructor the regs still say they should log PIC time as they are manipulating the controls and they are rated on the aircraft
The safety pilot thing! Yes you can log PIC if you are a safety pilot in VMC conditions. This is so because the US regs make no provision for logging anything else. If you are in doubt at all, call any FSDO office and speak to an inspector. here
You go to the US, you get a US certificate (lic). You are now legal to fly and log flight time in a US registered aircraft. Australian/ICAO lic or whatever else really doesn’t come into it. Besides a US lic is an ICAO licence.
Last edited by mjbow2; 21st Jun 2007 at 23:06. Reason: Typo
