Good business or plain devious underhandedness
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Good business or plain devious underhandedness
Opinions on this scenario please.
Small GA company, previously hard working and standing on its own merits is bought out by an individual who is ambitious and eager to be the shining new kid on the block. gets themselves a silent financial partner and grows slightly by working the business and exploiting an existing but captive market. now said individual decides to get bigger and better and moves in on other companies clients and offers the same service, but cheaper. Far cheaper than can realistically be achieved and remain in business long, but promised all the same. Now this individual has a little inside information to help things along.... given to them by young, eager and keen to impress pilots befriended by them at the pub/parties/meetings, and usually promised a spot when "we get the new twin/jet/turbine/whatever". Said individual receives faxes/phone calls/Ect, containing information on Quotes, costs, time tables Ect, from within his oppositions ranks, and makes their quotes lower, costs lower (by means not quite legal or ethical) and makes it known around the traps that they won't be beaten on price. then said individual sets up in opposition to other long established companies, in a tiny market, that are already working on the bare minimum to turn a profit and cover costs.
Is this good business?, or just plain sneaky, low down, under handed, non ethical aviation stuff?. Competition or market stuffing sneakiness?.
No wonder its hard to earn a wage and have decent equipment and meet all the obligations one is required to in this industry.
Small GA company, previously hard working and standing on its own merits is bought out by an individual who is ambitious and eager to be the shining new kid on the block. gets themselves a silent financial partner and grows slightly by working the business and exploiting an existing but captive market. now said individual decides to get bigger and better and moves in on other companies clients and offers the same service, but cheaper. Far cheaper than can realistically be achieved and remain in business long, but promised all the same. Now this individual has a little inside information to help things along.... given to them by young, eager and keen to impress pilots befriended by them at the pub/parties/meetings, and usually promised a spot when "we get the new twin/jet/turbine/whatever". Said individual receives faxes/phone calls/Ect, containing information on Quotes, costs, time tables Ect, from within his oppositions ranks, and makes their quotes lower, costs lower (by means not quite legal or ethical) and makes it known around the traps that they won't be beaten on price. then said individual sets up in opposition to other long established companies, in a tiny market, that are already working on the bare minimum to turn a profit and cover costs.
Is this good business?, or just plain sneaky, low down, under handed, non ethical aviation stuff?. Competition or market stuffing sneakiness?.
No wonder its hard to earn a wage and have decent equipment and meet all the obligations one is required to in this industry.
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it depends. Does this person actually have any idea what he is on about and what he is getting himself into? Does this person have their own AOC?
All well and good to get the students in the door but one day i thinkthe doors will be closed and there could be another Arena Aviation on their hands( OMG did someone just say arena aviation???) Eg. lets see when he needs a 100hrly or heaven forbid he needs his heater ripped out and fixed for 20k.
there are always people trying to have a go and good on them i think but most dont last
Im all for taking clients off your competitors i mean business is business. But there are ways and means to do it properly
Bizz
All well and good to get the students in the door but one day i thinkthe doors will be closed and there could be another Arena Aviation on their hands( OMG did someone just say arena aviation???) Eg. lets see when he needs a 100hrly or heaven forbid he needs his heater ripped out and fixed for 20k.
there are always people trying to have a go and good on them i think but most dont last
Im all for taking clients off your competitors i mean business is business. But there are ways and means to do it properly
Bizz
Does said individual who is the inside information, actually work for the company this person is trying to take competition from??
If so, then it sounds like they are breaching a confidentiality agreement between the employer and the employee. Assuming the company has one (which I don't see why they wouldn't, it's pretty much a standard thing). If they get found out, they can be up for some pretty hefty legal bills!! Add to that, a very quick sacking and in such a small industry like aviation, a bad name!
morno
If so, then it sounds like they are breaching a confidentiality agreement between the employer and the employee. Assuming the company has one (which I don't see why they wouldn't, it's pretty much a standard thing). If they get found out, they can be up for some pretty hefty legal bills!! Add to that, a very quick sacking and in such a small industry like aviation, a bad name!
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Been there, done that....it is simply b@stardry, dressed up as business acumen, and inevitably ends in pain (think Monarch or Seaview).
Unsustainable in any logical sense, but the continuous cycling of this sort of thing means an unrealistic expectation is held by the clientele, most of whom know dot about aviation.
In my PERSONAL experience, undercut service delivery in combination with obvious F&D breaches, with very junior CPLs (who know no better) being educated that 'this is how it's done....', and clients who then expect it that way. (look to your east about 90 odd nm mornos....)
The wheel turns and those who play this game will eventually get caught out, either by CASA or by the Tax man(before), or by ATSB (after). Unfortunately, plenty get hurt in the process before the inevitable.
Unsustainable in any logical sense, but the continuous cycling of this sort of thing means an unrealistic expectation is held by the clientele, most of whom know dot about aviation.
In my PERSONAL experience, undercut service delivery in combination with obvious F&D breaches, with very junior CPLs (who know no better) being educated that 'this is how it's done....', and clients who then expect it that way. (look to your east about 90 odd nm mornos....)
The wheel turns and those who play this game will eventually get caught out, either by CASA or by the Tax man(before), or by ATSB (after). Unfortunately, plenty get hurt in the process before the inevitable.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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My thoughts exactly..... but difficult to prove on the competitions side. A fax sent here and a quote copied there is hard to keep track of. I just hope the people involved realize what they are doing is wrong and they are risking a lot for a dirtbag that won't deliver on pie in the sky promises.
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sounds like they are breaching a confidentiality agreement between the employer and the employee
"An employee who is privvy to trade secrets of his or her employer will be in breach of the duty of confidence if he or she discloses confidential information during the course of employment to some interested third party."
--Evans M, Equity & Trusts
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the wizard of auz
It does sound very much like an ex YSBK / YMND based operator who did all the above. End result - went broke - cost people their livelihoods, etc, etc, etc.... A company I know bought an aircraft back off him towards the end, and I know for a fact, that they had to spend in excess of $40k, just to get it back in the air.
Makes a mockery of CASA's publicly stated intent to oversee the financial conduct of an operator, to ensure that the aforesaid business will survive on its own merits.
The tragedy of these practices is that an operator of the ilk you mention, can do irrepairable damage to parts of the industry they are associated with whilst they remain in business.
He needs a furniture van backed up his driveway!!!!!!!!
Makes a mockery of CASA's publicly stated intent to oversee the financial conduct of an operator, to ensure that the aforesaid business will survive on its own merits.
The tragedy of these practices is that an operator of the ilk you mention, can do irrepairable damage to parts of the industry they are associated with whilst they remain in business.
He needs a furniture van backed up his driveway!!!!!!!!
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Wiz mate, it's not right, legal or ethical and the reason this industry is still eating its own young at the same time as complaining about the rates.
Bendo is right.
First thing you can do is get ALL the staff into your office tell them that there have been some breaches of confidentiality, explain to them the illegality of it and consequences and ask them to ensure that their own conduct is exemplary. Explain to them that it is every employees duty to ensure that information they receive as a employee or as part of their employment is confidential to them and the company which employs them. That confidentiality also extends to their families and friends.
If you can get the evidence on diverted faxes, quotes etc, take it straight to your lawyer and get him to sack (misconduct) and sue the insider and the receiver (stolen property) and lay charges if you can. It's not CASA's problem it's yours. And ask your leagle how to tell the clients who's privileged information has been disseminated that they have been compromised, by and too whom and that you have taken action for their dismissal.
Scuttlebut, rumour or nod and wink aren't good enough and that is why it is so hard...........BUT........... if the employee is dumb enough to pass on confidential information and the other guy is dumb enough to receive it, they WILL trip themselves up, you just need to be patient.
You may be surprised how seriously your clients take it and appreciate the tip off. Just be sure you have the facts right and your lawyers advice.
Unfortunately these morons last long enough to take every body else around them down with them.
Unfortunately and I have been there it is too often your own staff/pilots who are the culprits, they spend more time with your clients than you do. Brief your clients that your quoting/price information is confidential to them and that for reasons of confidentiality is not revealed even to your staff/pilots, only to those who have a legitimate use for it.
Answer equals, tell em absolutely nothing except what they need to know where they are going and who they are taking. Keep all your company details, prices, quotes and costs etc. within your sight or otherwise under lock and key, password your computer and keep your filing cabinets locked. Tell em NOTHING about your future plans or future equipment. ZIP NADA, NOZZINGS. It's hard in a small office, but you can also rest assured that the ones who know the rules will not be the ones who want to know. If they have been brought up proper
they would too embarrased to ask in the first place and if they haven't come from a commercial background they will only need to be told, nicely, once.
Trust no one. It's none of their, business anyway.
Bendo is right.
First thing you can do is get ALL the staff into your office tell them that there have been some breaches of confidentiality, explain to them the illegality of it and consequences and ask them to ensure that their own conduct is exemplary. Explain to them that it is every employees duty to ensure that information they receive as a employee or as part of their employment is confidential to them and the company which employs them. That confidentiality also extends to their families and friends.
If you can get the evidence on diverted faxes, quotes etc, take it straight to your lawyer and get him to sack (misconduct) and sue the insider and the receiver (stolen property) and lay charges if you can. It's not CASA's problem it's yours. And ask your leagle how to tell the clients who's privileged information has been disseminated that they have been compromised, by and too whom and that you have taken action for their dismissal.
Scuttlebut, rumour or nod and wink aren't good enough and that is why it is so hard...........BUT........... if the employee is dumb enough to pass on confidential information and the other guy is dumb enough to receive it, they WILL trip themselves up, you just need to be patient.
You may be surprised how seriously your clients take it and appreciate the tip off. Just be sure you have the facts right and your lawyers advice.
Unfortunately these morons last long enough to take every body else around them down with them.
Unfortunately and I have been there it is too often your own staff/pilots who are the culprits, they spend more time with your clients than you do. Brief your clients that your quoting/price information is confidential to them and that for reasons of confidentiality is not revealed even to your staff/pilots, only to those who have a legitimate use for it.
Answer equals, tell em absolutely nothing except what they need to know where they are going and who they are taking. Keep all your company details, prices, quotes and costs etc. within your sight or otherwise under lock and key, password your computer and keep your filing cabinets locked. Tell em NOTHING about your future plans or future equipment. ZIP NADA, NOZZINGS. It's hard in a small office, but you can also rest assured that the ones who know the rules will not be the ones who want to know. If they have been brought up proper
they would too embarrased to ask in the first place and if they haven't come from a commercial background they will only need to be told, nicely, once. Trust no one. It's none of their, business anyway.
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I was always told the "loose lips sink ships" 
Its suprising how much info newbies tell about the company they work for... I suppose they are only there for the short term and the hours, not really trying to make a living like some of us. 
I spent quite a while flying live stock agents all over eastern Australia (when there used to be green grass growing). It was always interesting who would come up to you in the bar on a friday night asking about where i'd been during the week, it was funny that i could never quite recall where i had been, other than up north, but our clients could always trust us
Its suprising how much info newbies tell about the company they work for... I suppose they are only there for the short term and the hours, not really trying to make a living like some of us. I spent quite a while flying live stock agents all over eastern Australia (when there used to be green grass growing). It was always interesting who would come up to you in the bar on a friday night asking about where i'd been during the week, it was funny that i could never quite recall where i had been, other than up north, but our clients could always trust us
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I might at this point make it quite clear that it isn't anyone I am currently associated with. I do know both parties involved though, and have seen the slimebag at work on several fronts. truly delusional in the belief that alls fair in business and there own importance within the industry. I also know the competition and they are one of the best organizations I have been associated with and a fair and just employer with good equipment. one of the ones holding up the bottom end of GA. sad to see it happen...... sure would be a different outcome if it were my outfit being betrayed.
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Bizzybody:
Whatever happened to the whole Arena/Auction/return to YBAF business?.
All well and good to get the students in the door but one day i thinkthe doors will be closed and there could be another Arena Aviation on their hands( OMG did someone just say arena aviation???)
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And as a further precaution buy a shredder and ferchrissake put your trial balances, draft letters and quote calculations through it!!!!!!!!
I have to confess many years ago to developing an exceedingly good knowledge of my competitors in a certain industry merely by looking into their dumpmasters which were left unlocked in full view, in public open space, over weekends.
I have to confess many years ago to developing an exceedingly good knowledge of my competitors in a certain industry merely by looking into their dumpmasters which were left unlocked in full view, in public open space, over weekends.
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Bizzybody:
I get the feeling it's a topic close to your heart.
.
Kinda makes CASA, ASIC and other authorities look like toothless Tigers.
Whatever happened to CASA's attitude towards 'fit and proper person' and 'proving financial ability'.
I get the feeling it's a topic close to your heart.
.Kinda makes CASA, ASIC and other authorities look like toothless Tigers.
Whatever happened to CASA's attitude towards 'fit and proper person' and 'proving financial ability'.
A fun technique is to leave inflated dummy "quotes" lying around for the insider to "find" while dealing with the client directly yourself. You'll soon discover if you do indeed have a leak, and it should see the opposition price themselves out of the job while giving you enough room to make a fair profit. I believe it has worked in the past.
Although it is kinda stooping to his/ her level...
Although it is kinda stooping to his/ her level...
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Mr. Auz and the company being shafted, you can feel comfortable that people that behave like the alleged offenders generally go down in the long run. If your business plan involves that sort of style then the fundamentals are all wrong. It's unsustainable and if their intent is to squeeze competitors until they go broke then it's them that will fall down. Customers will start to question why they are cheaper and you reap what you sow, which is sad if it turns into that sort of bidding war.
The legality is an interesting one, is there a fiduciary or confidentiality agreement with employees? If not it's possibly a hard one and also difficult to prove. Either way it lacks morals and people like that generally get found out in other ways. As others have said it's a small industry and word gets around for owners and employers, so anyone doing this sort of thing might find themselves tainted.
Good luck to the people fighting the good fight and if they can hang in there it'll return to what it was. Good character generally wins in the end.
The legality is an interesting one, is there a fiduciary or confidentiality agreement with employees? If not it's possibly a hard one and also difficult to prove. Either way it lacks morals and people like that generally get found out in other ways. As others have said it's a small industry and word gets around for owners and employers, so anyone doing this sort of thing might find themselves tainted.
Good luck to the people fighting the good fight and if they can hang in there it'll return to what it was. Good character generally wins in the end.
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Can`t be a good business plan if the end result is they go broke.
There was an operator in Darwin that went bust a couple of years ago who was operating with a similar ethic. Then a new kid moved in from down south (EN/AS), and promised to show everyone how it is done. They certainly operate on the same business plan. No one wins. It breeds anger and hostility between operators and cost everyone money in the end. And companies go broke and close down. Sometimes good companies like AN/Andilys etc.
Two examples. Once a Citation quote which subsequently got the job beat everything from a Baron upto a Cheiftan for a flight out to Elcho Is.
A kingair was cross hired to fly one person down to (I think it was Palumpa) for the day. I know people like to fly in twins but............
I noticed no one has jumped on the pilots for supporting the operator. How is this any different to the ethics of someone working for free?
There was an operator in Darwin that went bust a couple of years ago who was operating with a similar ethic. Then a new kid moved in from down south (EN/AS), and promised to show everyone how it is done. They certainly operate on the same business plan. No one wins. It breeds anger and hostility between operators and cost everyone money in the end. And companies go broke and close down. Sometimes good companies like AN/Andilys etc.
Two examples. Once a Citation quote which subsequently got the job beat everything from a Baron upto a Cheiftan for a flight out to Elcho Is.
A kingair was cross hired to fly one person down to (I think it was Palumpa) for the day. I know people like to fly in twins but............
I noticed no one has jumped on the pilots for supporting the operator. How is this any different to the ethics of someone working for free?
Last edited by metrosmoker; 21st Jun 2007 at 05:55.