What's with the fuel price?
Grandpa Aerotart
Watch corn prices in the US over the next few mths...whomever decided it was a good idea to turn food into fuel needs taking out the back of the bike shed...oh that'd be the greenies again.
Silly Old Git
If Eugene and Bubba would give up their pickup trucks there would be more to go around
They wont...and they cant believe that,shucks,they gotta pay $3 a gallon to pump gas
They wont...and they cant believe that,shucks,they gotta pay $3 a gallon to pump gas
NO GAS...On May 15th 2007
Don't pump gas on MAY 15th
In April 1997, there was a "gas out" conducted nationwide in protest of gas prices. Gasoline prices dropped 30 cents a gallon overnight.
On May 15th 2007, all internet users are to not go to a gas station in protest of high gas prices. Gas is now over $3.00 a gallon in most places.
There are 73,000,000+ American members currently on the internet network, and the average car takes about 30 to 50 dollars to fill up.
If all users did not go to the pump on the 15th, it would take $2,292,000,000.00 (that's almost 3 BILLION) out of the oil companies pockets for just one day, so please do not go to the gas station on May 15th and lets try to put a dent in the Middle Eastern oil industry for at least one day.
If you agree (which I cant see why you wouldn't) resend this to all your contact list. With it saying, ''Don't pump gas on May 15th"
Don't pump gas on MAY 15th
In April 1997, there was a "gas out" conducted nationwide in protest of gas prices. Gasoline prices dropped 30 cents a gallon overnight.
On May 15th 2007, all internet users are to not go to a gas station in protest of high gas prices. Gas is now over $3.00 a gallon in most places.
There are 73,000,000+ American members currently on the internet network, and the average car takes about 30 to 50 dollars to fill up.
If all users did not go to the pump on the 15th, it would take $2,292,000,000.00 (that's almost 3 BILLION) out of the oil companies pockets for just one day, so please do not go to the gas station on May 15th and lets try to put a dent in the Middle Eastern oil industry for at least one day.
If you agree (which I cant see why you wouldn't) resend this to all your contact list. With it saying, ''Don't pump gas on May 15th"
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What The
And just buy more on the 16th.......not buying has little to do with not using it!
Its the not using it that would have an impact! One born every minute they say
J
And just buy more on the 16th.......not buying has little to do with not using it!
Its the not using it that would have an impact! One born every minute they say
J
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A very interesting discussion has ensued! The varying points of view and additional information coming to light are indeed instructional and definitely food for thought and further research!
CC: Yep, for sure I remember when fuel cost around 20c a litre(? -might have been a gallon, back in the mid-60's!) when I was kid, watching Dad get a full tank, hand across a $5 note and receive a significant portion in change! I have personally run mainly 4's & 6's in my cars, 6's and 8's in boats and aircraft. I definitely appreciate a fine running, balanced and honest engine -with a personal preference towards the big-bore, long-stroke slow lazy engine that doesn't have to fuss or bother on it's way to generating the requisite power!
Andy RR: You seem to be prepared to make assumptions based on my previous post which I find offensive:
my bolding KB
Frankly, I couldn't give a toss for the last "0.4% of power" the cats may or may not have absorbed in their function. I do however care that the cats when they fail, as they do, will pressure-pulse my turbo-chargers leading to expensive and IMO unnecessary, avoidable engine damage. Under NZ legislation there is no requirement for my car to be equipped with cats, so to my way of thinking, why would I leave myself exposed to the risk of unnecessary expense??? Please don't bother throwing 'environmental responsibility' at me -it's at best a politically correct 'hot button' which can and has been comprehensively debunked. There are greater issues facing us environmentally and societally more deserving of passionate support than catalytic converters. In addition, the performance losses (lower back-pressure leading to slightly extended turbo-lag) negate the '0.4% of power' increase you appear to despise.
In honesty I cannot claim to have never been irresponsible -can you? I am however absolutely not an 'irresponsible loon at the traffic lights' -despite having the ability to be so at my command, should I ever wish to exercise it. I appreciate my cars abilities more for the fact of their getting me out of the trouble created by other less resposible drivers, than the possibility of them getting me into trouble.
Further believe me when I say the power available to me was more massively improved when I big chipped the engine than any paltry power gains I may have made by disposing of the cats.
In having read your subsequent posts in this thread, it seems that whilst you are quick to pour your scorn and derision on other posters, you are yet to back up your contentions with verifiable documentation as has been done here (to everyone's benefit) by CC. Back off the ego sport. Reasoned education will get you much further than what you have tried so far.
CC: Yep, for sure I remember when fuel cost around 20c a litre(? -might have been a gallon, back in the mid-60's!) when I was kid, watching Dad get a full tank, hand across a $5 note and receive a significant portion in change! I have personally run mainly 4's & 6's in my cars, 6's and 8's in boats and aircraft. I definitely appreciate a fine running, balanced and honest engine -with a personal preference towards the big-bore, long-stroke slow lazy engine that doesn't have to fuss or bother on it's way to generating the requisite power!
Andy RR: You seem to be prepared to make assumptions based on my previous post which I find offensive:
Originally Posted by Andy RR
People who remove them from their cars mostly do it out of ignorance in a misguided attempt to get the last 0.4% of power that they will never use anyway, except as an irresponsible loon at the traffic lights.
Frankly, I couldn't give a toss for the last "0.4% of power" the cats may or may not have absorbed in their function. I do however care that the cats when they fail, as they do, will pressure-pulse my turbo-chargers leading to expensive and IMO unnecessary, avoidable engine damage. Under NZ legislation there is no requirement for my car to be equipped with cats, so to my way of thinking, why would I leave myself exposed to the risk of unnecessary expense??? Please don't bother throwing 'environmental responsibility' at me -it's at best a politically correct 'hot button' which can and has been comprehensively debunked. There are greater issues facing us environmentally and societally more deserving of passionate support than catalytic converters. In addition, the performance losses (lower back-pressure leading to slightly extended turbo-lag) negate the '0.4% of power' increase you appear to despise.
In honesty I cannot claim to have never been irresponsible -can you? I am however absolutely not an 'irresponsible loon at the traffic lights' -despite having the ability to be so at my command, should I ever wish to exercise it. I appreciate my cars abilities more for the fact of their getting me out of the trouble created by other less resposible drivers, than the possibility of them getting me into trouble.
Further believe me when I say the power available to me was more massively improved when I big chipped the engine than any paltry power gains I may have made by disposing of the cats.
In having read your subsequent posts in this thread, it seems that whilst you are quick to pour your scorn and derision on other posters, you are yet to back up your contentions with verifiable documentation as has been done here (to everyone's benefit) by CC. Back off the ego sport. Reasoned education will get you much further than what you have tried so far.
"Watch corn prices in the US over the next few mths...whomever decided it was a good idea to turn food into fuel needs taking out the back of the bike shed...oh that'd be the greenies again"
There was an interesting item on the Country Hour today. Apparently fertilizer prices have jumped $200/tonne cause of demand for fertilizer in the US to grow corn for ethanol production.
So what do we do about that? Use more natual gas to make urea to fertilize corn to make ethanol so we don't use as much fossil fuel. That make sense ........ doesn't it ......... yeh?
But hang on a minute, isn't natural gas a fossil fuel?
Yeah, but the world will be better off! Oh, that's OK then!
Dr
There was an interesting item on the Country Hour today. Apparently fertilizer prices have jumped $200/tonne cause of demand for fertilizer in the US to grow corn for ethanol production.
So what do we do about that? Use more natual gas to make urea to fertilize corn to make ethanol so we don't use as much fossil fuel. That make sense ........ doesn't it ......... yeh?
But hang on a minute, isn't natural gas a fossil fuel?
Yeah, but the world will be better off! Oh, that's OK then!
Dr
BTW, I would love to find out what 'pressure-pulsing' of turbochargers is, especially in relation to catalysts. It is not something I have every come across in my time developing turbocharged vehicles.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy RR
Methinks you do protest too much
Originally Posted by Andy RR
BTW, I would love to find out what 'pressure-pulsing' of turbochargers is, especially in relation to catalysts. It is not something I have every come across in my time developing turbocharged vehicles.
When a catalytic converter fails, it blocks completely and in effect, instantaneously -a complete blockage of the flow of exhaust gasses. This leads to a reverse-flow pressure pulse back through the exhaust system to the turbochargers, causing damage.
I regret I am unable to provide supporting documentation. What I have written here is as it was explained to me by the engineer that does such a superb job of looking after my car... as he should; I pay him enough! I have no reason to disbelieve a man of his experience -he's been looking after my car for the last 11 years, and I was aware of him by reputation before that as the man to go to with 'performance' vehicles for many years prior. In this, as in other things beyond my personal experience, I take the word of the professional I am paying to do the job before I trust the anecdotal evidence 'heard on the street', as it were.
In another example, the Chief Engineer of the organisation that looked after my aircraft used to (he's dead just now -cancer, not hooning) own an identical vehicle. He had his vehicle maintained at the same place as me, and also had this minor modification made -for the same reasons.
I am yet to see you provide any evidence to support your contentions -something I would have thought to be fairly readily available to you as a designer of catalytic converters and turbo-charged engines...
Is it possible perhaps, given your work, that you have become blinded to possibilities beyond your experience? I for one find it very easy to accept Chimbu Chuckles' evidence of oil-company cynicism and governmental half-truths or bald, outright lies. The evidence of that is everywhere you look -if you look. Politicians are there only to serve their own interests... the best interests of their electorate finish at best, a distant second. Activists of whatever flavour or current 'politically correct hot-button' issue are extremely adept at manipulating the media (through them the voting public) and thus politicians (who primarily want to be re-elected) to their cause -just look at how many former activists are now politicians!
"When a catalytic converter fails, it blocks completely and in effect, instantaneously -a complete blockage of the flow of exhaust gasses. This leads to a reverse-flow pressure pulse back through the exhaust system to the turbochargers, causing damage."
Sounds like riceburner folklore to me. Surely if the gas path becomes blocked the turbo will just stop, since it is driven by the gas flow.
"I regret I am unable to provide supporting documentation. What I have written here is as it was explained to me by the engineer that does such a superb job of looking after my car... as he should; I pay him enough! I have no reason to disbelieve a man of his experience -he's been looking after my car for the last 11 years, and I was aware of him by reputation before that as the man to go to with 'performance' vehicles for many years prior. In this, as in other things beyond my personal experience, I take the word of the professional I am paying to do the job before I trust the anecdotal evidence 'heard on the street', as it were."
License to print money by perpetuating a myth among users who don't know any better.
"In another example, the Chief Engineer of the organisation that looked after my aircraft used to (he's dead just now -cancer, not hooning) "
Doesn't the removal of the catalytic converter leave you with a carcinogenic exhaust if burning unleaded petrol? Maybe he'd have lived longer if he had a better engineer looking after his car.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/2001/1209/t3.html
Sounds like riceburner folklore to me. Surely if the gas path becomes blocked the turbo will just stop, since it is driven by the gas flow.
"I regret I am unable to provide supporting documentation. What I have written here is as it was explained to me by the engineer that does such a superb job of looking after my car... as he should; I pay him enough! I have no reason to disbelieve a man of his experience -he's been looking after my car for the last 11 years, and I was aware of him by reputation before that as the man to go to with 'performance' vehicles for many years prior. In this, as in other things beyond my personal experience, I take the word of the professional I am paying to do the job before I trust the anecdotal evidence 'heard on the street', as it were."
License to print money by perpetuating a myth among users who don't know any better.
"In another example, the Chief Engineer of the organisation that looked after my aircraft used to (he's dead just now -cancer, not hooning) "
Doesn't the removal of the catalytic converter leave you with a carcinogenic exhaust if burning unleaded petrol? Maybe he'd have lived longer if he had a better engineer looking after his car.
http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/2001/1209/t3.html
Last edited by Peter Fanelli; 12th May 2007 at 17:24.
KB,
my observation was a general comment on catalytic converters and the general received wisdom about their worthlessness. I see too many guys here in the UK who will ditch their cat in order to secure a practically meaningless gain, meanwhile spewing unnecessary CO into the urban environment.
Catalysts are not about saving the planet - they are about improving urban air quality - that's the air you and I breathe on a daily basis. Despite the alledged increase in toxicity of ULP over the 'good-old' leaded, the amount and type of HC emissions from vehicles is many times reduced and the composition is more likely to be short-chain saturated molecules like methane than it is to be damaging 'carcinogens' like toluene, which oxidise readily at lower temperatures. Cold start emissions amount to a 20th or less of the total emissions of a non-catalyzed car for the same trip, not to mention evaporative emissions control systems which are working whether the car is running or not.
It annoys me to see stuff like that allegedly attibuted to people with long letters after their name claiming all sorts of amazing conspiracies. IMO, it's basically tabloid journalism at it's worst. If there was any substance to their claims, they would be readily published in recognized scientific journals and could be quoted as such. The fact that they are not doesn't smell like a conspiracy to me - more like that their ideas don't actually stand up well to scrutiny and peer review.
Unfortunately for Mr A Bodycomb, his (Australian) patent on his revolutionary exhaust after-treatment system has lapsed, so there can't be too much money to be made from the device.
Regarding quoting other info - there is so much stuff out there I am not going to venture down the path of quoting this and that - it's a long and winding path that I don't have the time and patience to explore on-line on this forum. If you are interested, visit the Californian ARB website, the US-EPA, the SAE amongst others - loads of stuff about urban air quality projects to read.
If you're interested in the subject, I encourage you to read stuff from the above sources at least. If you're not really so, then please believe me that modern emissions controls and catalysts in conjunction with ULP do actually do a sterling job in making cars' local environmental impact low.
Regarding your turbocharger theory, I'm afraid I have to agree with Peter F. I think you have fallen foul of an urban legend. If the catalyst fails and blocks up, the pressure ratio across the turbine will go to unity and it will effectively stop pumping. The problem with diagnosis is that if the turbine disintegrates (usually by overspeeding the turbine through chipping and excessively raising the boost pressure) it can demolish the catalyst and look a lot like the so-called 'pressure pulsing' you are describing.
A
my observation was a general comment on catalytic converters and the general received wisdom about their worthlessness. I see too many guys here in the UK who will ditch their cat in order to secure a practically meaningless gain, meanwhile spewing unnecessary CO into the urban environment.
Catalysts are not about saving the planet - they are about improving urban air quality - that's the air you and I breathe on a daily basis. Despite the alledged increase in toxicity of ULP over the 'good-old' leaded, the amount and type of HC emissions from vehicles is many times reduced and the composition is more likely to be short-chain saturated molecules like methane than it is to be damaging 'carcinogens' like toluene, which oxidise readily at lower temperatures. Cold start emissions amount to a 20th or less of the total emissions of a non-catalyzed car for the same trip, not to mention evaporative emissions control systems which are working whether the car is running or not.
It annoys me to see stuff like that allegedly attibuted to people with long letters after their name claiming all sorts of amazing conspiracies. IMO, it's basically tabloid journalism at it's worst. If there was any substance to their claims, they would be readily published in recognized scientific journals and could be quoted as such. The fact that they are not doesn't smell like a conspiracy to me - more like that their ideas don't actually stand up well to scrutiny and peer review.
Unfortunately for Mr A Bodycomb, his (Australian) patent on his revolutionary exhaust after-treatment system has lapsed, so there can't be too much money to be made from the device.
Regarding quoting other info - there is so much stuff out there I am not going to venture down the path of quoting this and that - it's a long and winding path that I don't have the time and patience to explore on-line on this forum. If you are interested, visit the Californian ARB website, the US-EPA, the SAE amongst others - loads of stuff about urban air quality projects to read.
If you're interested in the subject, I encourage you to read stuff from the above sources at least. If you're not really so, then please believe me that modern emissions controls and catalysts in conjunction with ULP do actually do a sterling job in making cars' local environmental impact low.
Regarding your turbocharger theory, I'm afraid I have to agree with Peter F. I think you have fallen foul of an urban legend. If the catalyst fails and blocks up, the pressure ratio across the turbine will go to unity and it will effectively stop pumping. The problem with diagnosis is that if the turbine disintegrates (usually by overspeeding the turbine through chipping and excessively raising the boost pressure) it can demolish the catalyst and look a lot like the so-called 'pressure pulsing' you are describing.
A
