Avidyne Entigra or Garmin G1000....which is better
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Operating 5 C172's with G1000.
First of all - great system. However, I totally agree with previous posts in that after sales support from Garmin and Cessna is poor.
We haven't discovered any 'bugs' in the system, from a software perspective, moreso intermittent sensors and autopilot malfunctions (seem to coincide with wet conditions).
The biggest problem we face in Adelaide is T....x Aviation, the certified Garmin agent, who have no interest in fixing our problems because it is all Warranty work, and they know very little about the complexities of the system and its integration. A common misconception is that parts are interchangable between A/C, when this apparantly is not the case due to software versions (serial no. specific) being incompatible. As a result, we have had much downtime for our brand new A/C and of course lost revenue.
Our biggest loss of income however, resulted from an engine failure in one of the BRAND NEW A/C, which quit on base. The engine was restarted when ICO selected (PM me if you want a rundown), and a safe landing was made. The ensuing investigation took 3 weeks with minimal assistance from either aircraft or engine manufacturer. It seems Cessna will not admit to a fairly serious design flaw in their FCU's. But this is a thread drift and an entirely different story.
In conclusion - G1000 is an excellent system and brilliant in IFR, but will be even better in 2 or 3 years when the local aerodrome sparky knows how to fix them, and all the bits work properly all the time. It will also be great when all the functions can be utilised, e.g. Wx data link, traffic data link and XM Sat Radio.
You're right. The AP will level the wings when it loses NAV input. The Stby A/H is standard Vac type. And yes, a dual screen failure in IMC would be interesting to say the least. And I've heard around 10K for a screen.
First of all - great system. However, I totally agree with previous posts in that after sales support from Garmin and Cessna is poor.
We haven't discovered any 'bugs' in the system, from a software perspective, moreso intermittent sensors and autopilot malfunctions (seem to coincide with wet conditions).
The biggest problem we face in Adelaide is T....x Aviation, the certified Garmin agent, who have no interest in fixing our problems because it is all Warranty work, and they know very little about the complexities of the system and its integration. A common misconception is that parts are interchangable between A/C, when this apparantly is not the case due to software versions (serial no. specific) being incompatible. As a result, we have had much downtime for our brand new A/C and of course lost revenue.
Our biggest loss of income however, resulted from an engine failure in one of the BRAND NEW A/C, which quit on base. The engine was restarted when ICO selected (PM me if you want a rundown), and a safe landing was made. The ensuing investigation took 3 weeks with minimal assistance from either aircraft or engine manufacturer. It seems Cessna will not admit to a fairly serious design flaw in their FCU's. But this is a thread drift and an entirely different story.
In conclusion - G1000 is an excellent system and brilliant in IFR, but will be even better in 2 or 3 years when the local aerodrome sparky knows how to fix them, and all the bits work properly all the time. It will also be great when all the functions can be utilised, e.g. Wx data link, traffic data link and XM Sat Radio.
but should both screens go blank you have electric A/H, altimeter, airspeed and compass to find your way home with NO navigation information. I think the A/P reverts to a wing leveler on loss of navigation input (must check that).
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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Strim,
I feel the problem is Garmin more than Tenix for the disappointing experience you and I have both encountered. Garmin need to bring their field agents up to speed and keep parts in Australia, which would be to the benefit of all. If there was no Tenix, where else in Adelaide could you go?
Are you sure about the AP reverting to wing leveler in the event of dual G1000 failure? I pulled both PFD and MFD C/B’s on the ground and the (STEC) AP would not engage in any mode.
Accepted that the possibility is remote, I would consider total G1000 failure in IMC as a life-threatening situation because you have all your eggs in the one basket.
A decent independent standby navigation device (like a Garmin 296) should be mandated for any aircraft operating in IMC, even if it’s not approved for IFR.
I feel the problem is Garmin more than Tenix for the disappointing experience you and I have both encountered. Garmin need to bring their field agents up to speed and keep parts in Australia, which would be to the benefit of all. If there was no Tenix, where else in Adelaide could you go?
Are you sure about the AP reverting to wing leveler in the event of dual G1000 failure? I pulled both PFD and MFD C/B’s on the ground and the (STEC) AP would not engage in any mode.
Accepted that the possibility is remote, I would consider total G1000 failure in IMC as a life-threatening situation because you have all your eggs in the one basket.
A decent independent standby navigation device (like a Garmin 296) should be mandated for any aircraft operating in IMC, even if it’s not approved for IFR.
Ovation
"I would consider total G1000 failure in IMC as a life-threatening situation because you have all your eggs in the one basket"
Why?
My understanding is that you still have standby ASI, AH, Alt and compass (from the picture on the Mooney website).
I am not having a go at you, but it seems to me that a total G1000 failure in IMC is similar to a total electrical failure in a more conventionally instrumented aircraft.
Regards of G1000 or not, you should still think long and hard about equipment failures and carrry appropriate redundancies.
In the senario above you should be able to stay upright and still have lots of (well, a few) options.
1) descend into VMC if it can be done safely.
2) ring ATC on your mobile and find out if there is somewhere within range that will allow a descent to VMC and navigate there by DR.
Would certainly get the heart rate up for a while until you got to VMC, but not necessarily life threatening.
That said, I always carry multiple redundancy in the V35 (apart from the powerplant).
Flight instruments - Vacuum AH, electric AH, electric T&B
Nav gear - Garmin GNS430 GPS with VOR/ILS, ADF, Garmin GPSNav296 on the yoke connected to a Motion Computing Tablet running Jeppesen FlightDeck moving map and electronic flightbag, ICOM handheld with VOR, Garmin III Pilot GPS in the glovebox.
Com gear - VHF 1 in the GNS430, King VHF 2, ICOM handheld VHF, CDMA Mobile phone, Sat phone
I would be carrying similar redundancy if I had G1000.
Dr
"I would consider total G1000 failure in IMC as a life-threatening situation because you have all your eggs in the one basket"
Why?
My understanding is that you still have standby ASI, AH, Alt and compass (from the picture on the Mooney website).
I am not having a go at you, but it seems to me that a total G1000 failure in IMC is similar to a total electrical failure in a more conventionally instrumented aircraft.
Regards of G1000 or not, you should still think long and hard about equipment failures and carrry appropriate redundancies.
In the senario above you should be able to stay upright and still have lots of (well, a few) options.
1) descend into VMC if it can be done safely.
2) ring ATC on your mobile and find out if there is somewhere within range that will allow a descent to VMC and navigate there by DR.
Would certainly get the heart rate up for a while until you got to VMC, but not necessarily life threatening.
That said, I always carry multiple redundancy in the V35 (apart from the powerplant).
Flight instruments - Vacuum AH, electric AH, electric T&B
Nav gear - Garmin GNS430 GPS with VOR/ILS, ADF, Garmin GPSNav296 on the yoke connected to a Motion Computing Tablet running Jeppesen FlightDeck moving map and electronic flightbag, ICOM handheld with VOR, Garmin III Pilot GPS in the glovebox.
Com gear - VHF 1 in the GNS430, King VHF 2, ICOM handheld VHF, CDMA Mobile phone, Sat phone
I would be carrying similar redundancy if I had G1000.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 27th Jul 2007 at 10:41.
Join Date: May 2001
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Maybe not immediately lifethreatening but might give you a bit of a turn even so!- You would lose a lot of stuff. You no longer have the 'luxury' of separate vac, static and electrical instruments - just a couple of stby instruments. When/if you do get back on the ground, you have the dubious pleasure downtime and expense of getting the damn thing fixed. Makes you wonder why it would not be better to have just a Sandel EHSI. It might not look quite so spaceage but at least you still have a lot of other stuff left if it goes wrong and its relatively easy and cheap to replace - and there is not much those things cannot do. Much more appropriate in light single?
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I've flown Garmin G1000 equipped C172/C182, including a 40hr trip across the country and really, for touring purposes, it cant be bettered. In combine with the standard issue KAP140 (which isnt brilliant, but hey, its a 1ton S/E) you can let the plane do heaps of work.
Plus, once you've worked out how to use the MFD (which doesn't take that long once you've got used to the interface), you can have flightplans locked in very quickly. 3 mates and I took 2 (then brand new) G1000 172s to Perth via YAYE and back along the south coast just over a year ago, and all the flightplans for the entire trip were entered and stored in about 15 minutes.
As for failures, well, we didnt have any... But you've still got a compass! I think saying that it would be a "life-threatening" situation is perhaps being a little bit sensationalist.
Plus, once you've worked out how to use the MFD (which doesn't take that long once you've got used to the interface), you can have flightplans locked in very quickly. 3 mates and I took 2 (then brand new) G1000 172s to Perth via YAYE and back along the south coast just over a year ago, and all the flightplans for the entire trip were entered and stored in about 15 minutes.
As for failures, well, we didnt have any... But you've still got a compass! I think saying that it would be a "life-threatening" situation is perhaps being a little bit sensationalist.
