GA Bond for Twin Drivers!?
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GA Bond for Twin Drivers!?
Who said there is no shortage of pilots? I found this little gem the other day in a pilot contract. The job was advertising for a pilot with the following qualifications:
One of the last paragraphs was this clause:
So is there a pilot shortage or is this company so bad to work for that they have to try and force you to stay for 12 months. Most guys I know would be happy to stay for 12 months if they are getting plenty of work and paid ok, but to be bonded into it start to ring alarm bells. This “bond” isn’t even to cover the cost of endorsements or other training they may pay for.
Is this practice common place in other companies as I have never seen it before?
Commercial Pilot Licence with a valid Command Instrument Rating and a
minimum of;
- 1300 hours total time minimum,
- 300 hours multi engine experience minimum,
- 50 hours night flying experience preferred,
- 150 hours planned IFR flight in command preferred,
- 50 hours on Navajo/Chieftain aircraft preferred,
- 50 hours on PA34 aircraft preferred,
- endorsed/experience on other company aircraft preferred.
minimum of;
- 1300 hours total time minimum,
- 300 hours multi engine experience minimum,
- 50 hours night flying experience preferred,
- 150 hours planned IFR flight in command preferred,
- 50 hours on Navajo/Chieftain aircraft preferred,
- 50 hours on PA34 aircraft preferred,
- endorsed/experience on other company aircraft preferred.
One of the last paragraphs was this clause:
A willingness to be bonded to XXXX for 12 months commencing from the start of
commercial flight activities under this agreement; with the knowledge that the
bond intent is for the stability of flight crew movements throughout the company
and is not meant to be a financial arrangement to ‘cover costs’ of training.
Notwithstanding the above, if bond is wilfully broken, the pilot will contribute
$5,000.00 to XXXX.
commercial flight activities under this agreement; with the knowledge that the
bond intent is for the stability of flight crew movements throughout the company
and is not meant to be a financial arrangement to ‘cover costs’ of training.
Notwithstanding the above, if bond is wilfully broken, the pilot will contribute
$5,000.00 to XXXX.
So is there a pilot shortage or is this company so bad to work for that they have to try and force you to stay for 12 months. Most guys I know would be happy to stay for 12 months if they are getting plenty of work and paid ok, but to be bonded into it start to ring alarm bells. This “bond” isn’t even to cover the cost of endorsements or other training they may pay for.
Is this practice common place in other companies as I have never seen it before?
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I'd stay well clear of that company. Must be a great place to work if they need to bond their pilots just to keep them there for a year - What ever happened to providing good working conditions to keep their pilots.
Did the advert state what type of aircraft the applicant would be flying. $5000.00 sounds a bit rich to bond for a PA31 or PA34 endorsment
Cheers,
Capt EFIS.
Did the advert state what type of aircraft the applicant would be flying. $5000.00 sounds a bit rich to bond for a PA31 or PA34 endorsment
Cheers,
Capt EFIS.
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Decent conditions and a safe and legal work environment would BOND me to a job.
Perhaps they could set it up the other way around...
To promote stability within Flight Crew ranks, after each year of service, the pilot is paid a $5000 bonus.
Perhaps they could set it up the other way around...
To promote stability within Flight Crew ranks, after each year of service, the pilot is paid a $5000 bonus.
When you live....
Unenforcable?
Makes me wonder if all of these you-beaut Aviation diploma/degree courses should have subjects on Contract law and employment relations......
UTR
Makes me wonder if all of these you-beaut Aviation diploma/degree courses should have subjects on Contract law and employment relations......
UTR
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Bond
Some pilots have ruined things for others, with resume's that are untrue and expensive training that is wasted and has to be repeated because he only wanted it to get another job. Employers are now very wary.
The fairest way when training is needed to start a job, is for pilot and employer to sign an agreement, which requires the pilot to pay a bond up front and the company to refund this money by weekly payments. It should then be possible to get a loan.
There are some companies selling ICUS and sucking money out of newbies any way they can. Pilots who are just using GA as a training ground have many traps to negotiate.
The fairest way when training is needed to start a job, is for pilot and employer to sign an agreement, which requires the pilot to pay a bond up front and the company to refund this money by weekly payments. It should then be possible to get a loan.
There are some companies selling ICUS and sucking money out of newbies any way they can. Pilots who are just using GA as a training ground have many traps to negotiate.
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There is a clear cost to an employer if they have to train someone up to a new aircraft or a rating so if someone is happy to stay in a job for several years when the usual turnover is say 12 months then a bonus equil to even half the annual training budget for a new person would probably go along way to keeping a small number of people in GA.
There are those with family commitments and the like that don’t want to be moving all over the country for progression and they tend to stay for a few years. Only a small percentage however.
Unfortunatly I have seen many of them end up not being able to make ends meet and leave the industry all together which is a loss. An old instructor of mine also said that if you are not out of GA in 4 to 5 years then you never will get out (into bigger aircraft) he had 6000 hours, was a great instructor, and now drives a bus.
But then, being paid a bonus in GA is pretty uncommon and you would be talking about a major break with tradition.
Lets hope there is an upside to the pilot shortage and it helps to make a change for the better in that way.
DD
There are those with family commitments and the like that don’t want to be moving all over the country for progression and they tend to stay for a few years. Only a small percentage however.
Unfortunatly I have seen many of them end up not being able to make ends meet and leave the industry all together which is a loss. An old instructor of mine also said that if you are not out of GA in 4 to 5 years then you never will get out (into bigger aircraft) he had 6000 hours, was a great instructor, and now drives a bus.
But then, being paid a bonus in GA is pretty uncommon and you would be talking about a major break with tradition.
Lets hope there is an upside to the pilot shortage and it helps to make a change for the better in that way.
DD
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With all due respect people, any financial agreement required to fly a pison is absured to say the least. Create an environment that is enjoyable to work in and entertain the idea of looking after and supporting your work force, and it will become alot more stable. Stop and ask yourself
"Why do have I have a increased turnover" Is everyone moving on to big and better things or just stepping sideways to get away. Pilots put up with alot more than most as a general rule, they propably do so due to the fact they are fairly driven and remain focused on the big picture. But everyone has limits. Your boss is not doing you a favour by employing you. He is buying your time and expertise. A fair days pay for a fair days work.I loved my time time in GA. While I moved on to bigger and better aircraft eventually it was as much because none of the GA companies presented any long term career prospects. While I don't doubt that some out there do, the reality is most don't. If you think charging people for a job and giving back little bits each week is the answer to staff retention then WAKE UP. You get what you pay for, reap what you sow, how ever you want to word it. Create the environment and they will come.
"Why do have I have a increased turnover" Is everyone moving on to big and better things or just stepping sideways to get away. Pilots put up with alot more than most as a general rule, they propably do so due to the fact they are fairly driven and remain focused on the big picture. But everyone has limits. Your boss is not doing you a favour by employing you. He is buying your time and expertise. A fair days pay for a fair days work.I loved my time time in GA. While I moved on to bigger and better aircraft eventually it was as much because none of the GA companies presented any long term career prospects. While I don't doubt that some out there do, the reality is most don't. If you think charging people for a job and giving back little bits each week is the answer to staff retention then WAKE UP. You get what you pay for, reap what you sow, how ever you want to word it. Create the environment and they will come.
clapped out PA31/PA34s............. ahahahahaha, show me somewhere where a 30yr old PA31/34 isn't "clapped out" ... apart from the connie and DC3 
$5000 is a bit rich though... especially if your endorsed. But better the devil you know to get your time and get out. $5000 is a little to pay and besides, you'll be out of there in a year with your multi under your belt.
Its not really a high price to pay for a "relatively" low experience demand.
$5000 is a bit rich though... especially if your endorsed. But better the devil you know to get your time and get out. $5000 is a little to pay and besides, you'll be out of there in a year with your multi under your belt.
Its not really a high price to pay for a "relatively" low experience demand.
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To the posters mentioning that the company only has to provide better conditions to encourage pilots to stay...What on earth are you smoking??? That may work for some (I can't think of anyone offhand), but it wouldn't be many. T&Cs that match an airline...yeah, right! Rex can't keep the bigger airlines from poaching pilots. What chance does a GA company have with twin-experienced pilots?
A $5000 bond? The best PA 31/34 command job in Australia would still only pay maybe half to three quarters of the starting salary with an airline. Most of the young guns with their eyes set on the airlines applying for this job wouldn't blink to take an airline job if offered and they'd happily blow the bond. At least the company in question can accept that they will lose pilots on a regular basis and the $5K might cover the advertising, time and other costs to hire the next one.
A $5000 bond? The best PA 31/34 command job in Australia would still only pay maybe half to three quarters of the starting salary with an airline. Most of the young guns with their eyes set on the airlines applying for this job wouldn't blink to take an airline job if offered and they'd happily blow the bond. At least the company in question can accept that they will lose pilots on a regular basis and the $5K might cover the advertising, time and other costs to hire the next one.
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Bang Bus,
You hit the nail on the head mate.
Bushy,
1. Airlines expect a longer return of service because the conditions are better and the training is substantially more significant than getting someone with 1300TT and 300 multi up and running on a chieftain.
2. GA will always be a door leading to the airlines. Like it or not, few people dream of living in remote communities flying ill equipped 206’s around for the rest of their lives. Yes, there are some great career jobs in GA but the reality is that most are not. Remove all the pilots out of GA that aspire to end up in the airlines and guess what, it’s time to hire that Hilux because there ain’t going to be any pilots in Ngukurr, Boroloola, Halls Ck, Kununurra, Horn Island etc. etc.
3. Unless you pay people a competitive wage, how can you expect to have people hanging around for years on end? After having spent a huge chunk of money and time getting licences and ratings, am I going to spend 10 years doing scenic flights around the Bungles getting paid 27k, or am I going to do a 2 week course and head down to Argyle and get paid 3 times that working less hours driving a dump truck?
4. Paying up front is NOT the fairest way to get people to stay (no doubt you pay them interest on the money you are holding for them in a trust, or is does it go straight into the business cash flow?). Good companies will use a handshake agreement and provide a reason for an employee to stay.
You hit the nail on the head mate.
Bushy,
1. Airlines expect a longer return of service because the conditions are better and the training is substantially more significant than getting someone with 1300TT and 300 multi up and running on a chieftain.
2. GA will always be a door leading to the airlines. Like it or not, few people dream of living in remote communities flying ill equipped 206’s around for the rest of their lives. Yes, there are some great career jobs in GA but the reality is that most are not. Remove all the pilots out of GA that aspire to end up in the airlines and guess what, it’s time to hire that Hilux because there ain’t going to be any pilots in Ngukurr, Boroloola, Halls Ck, Kununurra, Horn Island etc. etc.
3. Unless you pay people a competitive wage, how can you expect to have people hanging around for years on end? After having spent a huge chunk of money and time getting licences and ratings, am I going to spend 10 years doing scenic flights around the Bungles getting paid 27k, or am I going to do a 2 week course and head down to Argyle and get paid 3 times that working less hours driving a dump truck?
4. Paying up front is NOT the fairest way to get people to stay (no doubt you pay them interest on the money you are holding for them in a trust, or is does it go straight into the business cash flow?). Good companies will use a handshake agreement and provide a reason for an employee to stay.
Bottums Up
And where does it say to pay up front?
My bolding:
IMHO pilots have created the bonding environment by being ever so ready to bail out on a new job because a better one comes up, causing the cost of induction and endorsement to be wasted.
Paying up front, well that's a different matter all together.
My bolding:
A willingness to be bonded to XXXX for 12 months commencing from the start of commercial flight activities under this agreement; with the knowledge that the bond intent is for the stability of flight crew movements throughout the company and is not meant to be a financial arrangement to ‘cover costs’ of training. Notwithstanding the above, if bond is wilfully broken, the pilot will contribute $5,000.00 to XXXX.
Paying up front, well that's a different matter all together.
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CC,
I was responding to Bushy’s remark in post #6...
I was responding to Bushy’s remark in post #6...
The fairest way when training is needed to start a job, is for pilot and employer to sign an agreement, which requires the pilot to pay a bond up front and the company to refund this money by weekly payments. It should then be possible to get a loan.
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Dave Inc, absolutely correct.
I know of a particular North-WA company (recently advertised for drivers I might add) that "contracts" their pilots for a period of time. They sign something that says they wont leave for "X" amount of time.
Have no idea how it works, or how it would stand up in court but some seem to be signing up for it
Treat your pilots well and they will feel obligated to stay for a decent amount of time.
...disco
I know of a particular North-WA company (recently advertised for drivers I might add) that "contracts" their pilots for a period of time. They sign something that says they wont leave for "X" amount of time.
Have no idea how it works, or how it would stand up in court but some seem to be signing up for it
Treat your pilots well and they will feel obligated to stay for a decent amount of time.
...disco
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This type of behaviour should be stopped in its tracks, this is unacceptable.
There will not doubt be many with min hours and their parents money willing to do this.
Which state is it in ?, hopefully one of the award accepting states, if so sick the AFAP onto them.
If you work for this company (or any other) under those terms you do not deserve to be called an equal to those on this forum or in the aviation industry.
This is not a bond, it is extortion.
There will not doubt be many with min hours and their parents money willing to do this.
Which state is it in ?, hopefully one of the award accepting states, if so sick the AFAP onto them.
If you work for this company (or any other) under those terms you do not deserve to be called an equal to those on this forum or in the aviation industry.
This is not a bond, it is extortion.
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...besides, lets say someone took this job, then decided to leave after 6 months, how actually legally binding would this be?
If, when the boss says "you owe me $5000 now", and they responded "How does
off sound?" and leave, is there really any recourse?
I seriously doubt this would stand up in court anyway.
...disco
If, when the boss says "you owe me $5000 now", and they responded "How does
off sound?" and leave, is there really any recourse?I seriously doubt this would stand up in court anyway.
...disco
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*Edited because I totally failed to read the first post, I didn't realise that this crowd already expect you to have a type rating! That is NOT what I signed for, I got my PA31/34 ratings plus NZ B cat and multi instructors endorsement for my $5000 bond. THIS is a new ball game entirely and you guys are all speaking truth. The only thing this employer deserves from their pilots when they leave is a big middle finger.*
Well at the risk of sticking my head above the parapets here, it's not a new thing, I signed a contract with exactly that same clause in it 5 years ago (New Zealand operator but same aircraft type PA31 / PA34), I blew them out for an airline job 6 weeks before my $5000 bond was up and yep I paid up the money. And it was the best move I ever made.
For one thing it's not just as easy as sticking up a middle finger to your previous employer you know, not in these 21st century days of 5 year employment background checks, and references required from all your previous employers or you can't move on.
In terms of not taking the job, seriously what else are you going to do when you've been 5 years flying single piston and someone offers you your first multi job, turn it down? Especially for me, 6 months after 9/11 when your logbook hasn't seen any flying for 4 months. Paying them out was an even easier decision to make, going from a piston to a turbine job and from earning $NZ28000 to $NZ75000. What GA operator is going to match that in terms and conditions. Yep it's sh!t that GA people put these clauses in their contracts but if I was a single piston flying instructor moving on up I'd still do it again in a heartbeat. If I didn't sign that contract I'd probably be still be flogging round NZ instructing in a PA28 and living off cold baked beans - been there for too long and didn't like it much
Yep punitive bonds are no doubt a crap invention, but to take the employer's point of view to be fair, if they lose a couple of charters for their Navajo because you walked and they couldn't find a replacement at short notice, it's probably cost them at least that much in lost revenue. And it's waaayyy better than cash up front for a type rating or paying for ICUS or all that other sharp practice that bothers me a lot more.
At least with this type of contract you have the option of sticking round for 12 months and it won't cost you a penny. But pure self interest says you should still bail out asap because every month you spend in GA is a month less you'll have at the other end of your career as a silvery haired jet captain earning a quarter mill, and $5000 will only be a couple weeks wages.
The first last and golden rule of this business is TAKE THE FIRST MULTI JOB YOU GET and that hasn't changed a bit. I'm sorry but if my kid wants to be a pilot I'll tell him the same thing, take the GA sh!t now but stay focused on logging those hours and get into the airlines as young as humanly possible. Anyone who seriously advocates telling young guys to sit around on their high and mighty turning down GA twin jobs and waiting for terms and conditions to improve, is in dream land.
Well at the risk of sticking my head above the parapets here, it's not a new thing, I signed a contract with exactly that same clause in it 5 years ago (New Zealand operator but same aircraft type PA31 / PA34), I blew them out for an airline job 6 weeks before my $5000 bond was up and yep I paid up the money. And it was the best move I ever made.
For one thing it's not just as easy as sticking up a middle finger to your previous employer you know, not in these 21st century days of 5 year employment background checks, and references required from all your previous employers or you can't move on.
In terms of not taking the job, seriously what else are you going to do when you've been 5 years flying single piston and someone offers you your first multi job, turn it down? Especially for me, 6 months after 9/11 when your logbook hasn't seen any flying for 4 months. Paying them out was an even easier decision to make, going from a piston to a turbine job and from earning $NZ28000 to $NZ75000. What GA operator is going to match that in terms and conditions. Yep it's sh!t that GA people put these clauses in their contracts but if I was a single piston flying instructor moving on up I'd still do it again in a heartbeat. If I didn't sign that contract I'd probably be still be flogging round NZ instructing in a PA28 and living off cold baked beans - been there for too long and didn't like it much
Yep punitive bonds are no doubt a crap invention, but to take the employer's point of view to be fair, if they lose a couple of charters for their Navajo because you walked and they couldn't find a replacement at short notice, it's probably cost them at least that much in lost revenue. And it's waaayyy better than cash up front for a type rating or paying for ICUS or all that other sharp practice that bothers me a lot more.
At least with this type of contract you have the option of sticking round for 12 months and it won't cost you a penny. But pure self interest says you should still bail out asap because every month you spend in GA is a month less you'll have at the other end of your career as a silvery haired jet captain earning a quarter mill, and $5000 will only be a couple weeks wages.
The first last and golden rule of this business is TAKE THE FIRST MULTI JOB YOU GET and that hasn't changed a bit. I'm sorry but if my kid wants to be a pilot I'll tell him the same thing, take the GA sh!t now but stay focused on logging those hours and get into the airlines as young as humanly possible. Anyone who seriously advocates telling young guys to sit around on their high and mighty turning down GA twin jobs and waiting for terms and conditions to improve, is in dream land.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 3rd May 2007 at 08:03. Reason: Because I can't read
Yeah, and it's because of people like YOU that this industry is so ****** up!!
There is NO NEED to be going and paying 'this company' (did someone say Golden Eagle,
) $5,000 just because you did 10 months of the 12 and someone offered you a better job. If you're of the decent breed, you'll make them aware of the possible empending departure of your good self, so they can make the nessecary arrangements to replace you.
With the job situation at the moment, this ****** is dreaming that he'll get good pilots with that scheme. I have no doubt he will get **** pilots though, because unfortunately there are idiot pilots out there that think only of themselves, and carry a set of knives in their back pocket to stick in other pilots backs.
THIS is why we have **** terms and conditions in the first place!
Rant over.
morno
There is NO NEED to be going and paying 'this company' (did someone say Golden Eagle,
) $5,000 just because you did 10 months of the 12 and someone offered you a better job. If you're of the decent breed, you'll make them aware of the possible empending departure of your good self, so they can make the nessecary arrangements to replace you.With the job situation at the moment, this ****** is dreaming that he'll get good pilots with that scheme. I have no doubt he will get **** pilots though, because unfortunately there are idiot pilots out there that think only of themselves, and carry a set of knives in their back pocket to stick in other pilots backs.
THIS is why we have **** terms and conditions in the first place!
Rant over.
morno
Bottums Up
Dave Incognito
Ooops, the reference to Bushy's post didn't register and I only referred back to the original post.
I disagree with having to pay a bond up front.
Ooops, the reference to Bushy's post didn't register and I only referred back to the original post.
I disagree with having to pay a bond up front.