GA Bond for Twin Drivers!?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: australia
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no trouble paying it IF your going to stick those 12 months out- they dont get the money and youve got your twin hours. if its a ****e 12 months its only 12 months out of your life, especially for the young fellas its not that much! you'll then move on to bigger and better things.
if they are a dodgy company and you refuse to fly for safety reasons and they give you the flick, well you should get the $$$ back- just make sure the payment is only required if the PILOT willfully breaks the bond, not the company breaking it.
keep a card up your sleeve which has them on breech of contract first, then bugger off and dont pay up.
they claim its for the stability of flt crew movement- so what happens if you give them notice that your leaving and they have time to find someone to replace you? i would call that stable, which in essence doesnt break the bond.
now I would like to know what happens if the company folds, what garuntee is there that you get the money back if it was paid upfront?
if they are a dodgy company and you refuse to fly for safety reasons and they give you the flick, well you should get the $$$ back- just make sure the payment is only required if the PILOT willfully breaks the bond, not the company breaking it.
keep a card up your sleeve which has them on breech of contract first, then bugger off and dont pay up.
they claim its for the stability of flt crew movement- so what happens if you give them notice that your leaving and they have time to find someone to replace you? i would call that stable, which in essence doesnt break the bond.
now I would like to know what happens if the company folds, what garuntee is there that you get the money back if it was paid upfront?
Join Date: Aug 2003
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TAKE THE FIRST MULTI JOB YOU GET
I didnt, and I'm glad because it meant the difference between a company that doesnt pay properly and flogs their pilots and one that pays the award and looks after theirs.
Sorry Luke dude, but companies like this need guys like you, in a big rush to get into airlines and will sell their own mother (read: take any crap conditions they lay out) to get the next step up. The times they are a changing and this kind of rationale has to as well.
...disco
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possible scenarios..
Lets say a young pilot joins a company like this and agrees to the $5K bond. After 9 or 10 months they've had enough and are half way out the door. They intentionally perform badly, hoping to be asked to leave by his/her employer, negating the agreement to pay out the bond?
What happens if pilots leave without officially puting in a resignation letter? They just stop showing up for work and keep telling their boss they're unavailable, because they've already started working for someone else. What happens to the agreement when the pilot doesnt give notice and eventually gets the alpha?
(I have actually seen people do both these)
What happens if pilots leave without officially puting in a resignation letter? They just stop showing up for work and keep telling their boss they're unavailable, because they've already started working for someone else. What happens to the agreement when the pilot doesnt give notice and eventually gets the alpha?
(I have actually seen people do both these)
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I would suggest that to them it will only come back to haunt them.
To be fair, at least the operators arnt charging for the type rating in the first place and 12 months is not a long time really.
It would be great if the terms/conditions were better but its not always going to solve the problem. I was making what I consider easy money in GA but the intention was always to move onto bigger things so regardless of what I was being paid to fly pistons for I was going to move when the chance came.
Im sure youll find many others especially sports people have much the same deal (ie break the contract and youll be penalised)
To be fair, at least the operators arnt charging for the type rating in the first place and 12 months is not a long time really.
It would be great if the terms/conditions were better but its not always going to solve the problem. I was making what I consider easy money in GA but the intention was always to move onto bigger things so regardless of what I was being paid to fly pistons for I was going to move when the chance came.
Im sure youll find many others especially sports people have much the same deal (ie break the contract and youll be penalised)
Having paid the expenses involved in relocating to gain employment with a bush operator I would expect a reasonable return for my money. Therefore the operator should put up a bond to cover me in case the company ceases business. That way my holiday pay and superannuation are guaranteed, and my relocation costs covered if I need to move on early.
Join Date: May 2003
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What disco air said earlier in the thread rings true
there would be no legal recourse if you did six months and left. I doubt the bond would stand up in court and it would cost 5 grand to get it into the court room, (if not thrown out before hand) at which point the pilot doesn't show for the hearing anyway and your out another grand in costs.
If you really want to retain pilots you have to give them something to stay for. decent pay and equipment and never underestimate the value of good staff parties.
you owe me $5000 now", and they responded "How does **** off sound"
If you really want to retain pilots you have to give them something to stay for. decent pay and equipment and never underestimate the value of good staff parties.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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in that case remember the accrued leave and reimbursements I owe YOU - how does **** off sound?
I recently left the employ of an unscrupulous operator and true to his character, I ended up receiving my last pay packet quite late and quite light on.
little does he know, he's about to be hit very very hard by the karma train.
bonding to a company for an endorsement or rating would be acceptable, but this mob want to bond you for the job..... thats just wrong. If the money and conditions are good, you wouldn't want to leave. If on the other hand, the company is crappy, aircraft are crappy, training is crappy, boss is a ******, and unsafe practices are encouraged, you should be able to leave any time you like and your pay packet should be unmolested.
In reality there should be no bond for remote area operators. If you compared what people in other industries get for living in these places then look at what the pilots get it is an absolute utter disgrace.
School teachers, nurses, doctors, accountants, shop managers etc all get large money additional to accommodation, relocation, and remote area allowances. Cleaners make more money than pilots. Unskilled teacher's aids get more money than pilots.
Pilots would be the lowest paid workers in remote areas in some of the most expensive places to live in the country. Most of the operators in these parts have beat up ancient aircraft, with dubious operating practices.
Already one Port Hedland operator has been mentioned, another was in court last year with CASA trying to remove the AOC.
If bush operators want experience dedicate bush people they have to pay the money and have decent equipment. Obviously there is some sort of a shortage going on, so here is the chance for all these bush operators to change things for good. Many of them are multi millionaires with numerous businesses running on the side. Yet they continually screw over some of the highest qualified and trained people they employ through all their businesses.
I personally know of two guys who love the bush but got out aviation because you couldn't pay the bills. They stayed in town, changed careers and took 100% rises with training thrown in!! One of them was not in the mining industry.
School teachers, nurses, doctors, accountants, shop managers etc all get large money additional to accommodation, relocation, and remote area allowances. Cleaners make more money than pilots. Unskilled teacher's aids get more money than pilots.
Pilots would be the lowest paid workers in remote areas in some of the most expensive places to live in the country. Most of the operators in these parts have beat up ancient aircraft, with dubious operating practices.
Already one Port Hedland operator has been mentioned, another was in court last year with CASA trying to remove the AOC.
If bush operators want experience dedicate bush people they have to pay the money and have decent equipment. Obviously there is some sort of a shortage going on, so here is the chance for all these bush operators to change things for good. Many of them are multi millionaires with numerous businesses running on the side. Yet they continually screw over some of the highest qualified and trained people they employ through all their businesses.
I personally know of two guys who love the bush but got out aviation because you couldn't pay the bills. They stayed in town, changed careers and took 100% rises with training thrown in!! One of them was not in the mining industry.
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Its academic
THE COMPANY IN QUESTION KEEPS BREAKING THE CONTRACT ANYWAY.
Each time they pay late, pay less or don’t pay at all they negate their own contract.
I have to wonder if DOTARS are aware of the financial position of such company having only awarded then the RPT a few months ago.
Trading insolvent is a crime and that is what you are doing if you "cant offord to pay wages at the moment". Perhaps paying debts $5000 at a time with the bond money is just enough to keep the wolves from the door and the directors out of court.
FYI the bond is reset every time you move on to a new aircraft so thinking you are just there for a 12 month stay will see you with a $5000 bill when you leave. They can bond you for up to 3 years with progression through the company on the twins. After 3 years you will have enough leave for them to be able to just keep $5000 anyway.
Each time they pay late, pay less or don’t pay at all they negate their own contract.
I have to wonder if DOTARS are aware of the financial position of such company having only awarded then the RPT a few months ago.
Trading insolvent is a crime and that is what you are doing if you "cant offord to pay wages at the moment". Perhaps paying debts $5000 at a time with the bond money is just enough to keep the wolves from the door and the directors out of court.
FYI the bond is reset every time you move on to a new aircraft so thinking you are just there for a 12 month stay will see you with a $5000 bill when you leave. They can bond you for up to 3 years with progression through the company on the twins. After 3 years you will have enough leave for them to be able to just keep $5000 anyway.
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FACTS!
This is purely a factual response to what I have read….
The company in question employs ALL pilots FULL-TIME and on SALARY. The majority of GA operators in WA and the rest of Australia employ mostly only casual pilots. Having a regular known income, you can save a regular amount and know what you have to play with. Especially when you have a BIG debt for all your flight training!
---ALSO, if a flight is cancelled you are still going to get paid!---
Unlike casual, you know a good week before what days you are flying, therefore you can plan ahead etc.
Since your full-time, you don’t pay for any Instrument Rating Renewals, Line or Base checks, plus you get unlimited use of an Elite 6 simulator and ongoing ‘Check and Training’ at no cost to the pilot. Many GA operators in Australia require the pilot to pay for Renewals; I have even heard of some operators that make the pilot pay for Line and Base checks.
The bond is NOT UPFRONT! It is purely just, ‘Put Your Money Where Your Mouth IS!’ by that I mean, each and every pilot strives for bigger and better things (turbines, regional’s, wide-bodies, etc.) we all know that once we have logged the ‘Magic 500’, its ‘exit stage left’ as soon as something better comes up. As the company is very BIG on ‘Check and Training’ and they tend to make an investment in you, all they ask is that you give them a minimum commitment of 12months. 'Guaranteed income and flying for 12months' -WOW!.
Happy Flying..
The company in question employs ALL pilots FULL-TIME and on SALARY. The majority of GA operators in WA and the rest of Australia employ mostly only casual pilots. Having a regular known income, you can save a regular amount and know what you have to play with. Especially when you have a BIG debt for all your flight training!
---ALSO, if a flight is cancelled you are still going to get paid!---
Unlike casual, you know a good week before what days you are flying, therefore you can plan ahead etc.
Since your full-time, you don’t pay for any Instrument Rating Renewals, Line or Base checks, plus you get unlimited use of an Elite 6 simulator and ongoing ‘Check and Training’ at no cost to the pilot. Many GA operators in Australia require the pilot to pay for Renewals; I have even heard of some operators that make the pilot pay for Line and Base checks.
The bond is NOT UPFRONT! It is purely just, ‘Put Your Money Where Your Mouth IS!’ by that I mean, each and every pilot strives for bigger and better things (turbines, regional’s, wide-bodies, etc.) we all know that once we have logged the ‘Magic 500’, its ‘exit stage left’ as soon as something better comes up. As the company is very BIG on ‘Check and Training’ and they tend to make an investment in you, all they ask is that you give them a minimum commitment of 12months. 'Guaranteed income and flying for 12months' -WOW!.
Happy Flying..
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I Am Unfamiliar And Would Not Have A Clue As To The Experience And History Of All Of The Previous Posts. I Have Endured This Indusrty For A Period Longer Than I Care To Remember. The Facts Are Plain As The Nose On Your Face. Most GA Employers and I did say most NOT ALL,Are A Bunch Of Would Be's. Most Of Them Will Certainly Not Be Could Be's. They Lose Pilots Of Calibre Simply Because They Treat Them Like Sh*t. The Bond Issue Is One That Will Die A Natural Death simply because it has no merit an at best is unfair to the worth and income producing pilot.
For Too Long Employers Have Not Considered Their Best And Only Money Earners, Their Pilots, As Assetts.
For Far Too Long Pilots Have Been And Are Still Largely Treated Like Scum This Is Why They Move On And This Is Why We Have The Bond. Employers Need To Consider That A Pilot Is Really Worth His Weight And He Does Earn The Comp[any Income And The Bond Cost Would Be Easily Recovered In A Matter Of Months By The Pilot Simply Earning An Income For His Employer By Piloting His Aircraft.
For Too Long Employers Have Not Considered Their Best And Only Money Earners, Their Pilots, As Assetts.
For Far Too Long Pilots Have Been And Are Still Largely Treated Like Scum This Is Why They Move On And This Is Why We Have The Bond. Employers Need To Consider That A Pilot Is Really Worth His Weight And He Does Earn The Comp[any Income And The Bond Cost Would Be Easily Recovered In A Matter Of Months By The Pilot Simply Earning An Income For His Employer By Piloting His Aircraft.
Last edited by bimmer1615; 30th Apr 2007 at 11:53.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Mate, can't you read?. there is no rating to be bonded for. they want you to have the type already. you get nothing for your bond. they would have to train you regardless of your experience. its in their ops manual. they bond you so if you get sick of the conditions and bad pay, and leave, they have a handful of your money and you have..............NADA.
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thats not that bad..there is an outfit in Auckland NZ that wants 3 years and $5000 for every year you don't fly if you leave early..operating clapped out PA31s and 34s..That includes type ratings though and training..pays about mid thirties..PM me if you want to try out (1000TT and 120 multi for insurance apparantly)..I can give you the owners number..(church goers prefered..no swearing in the hangar
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LST
You did'nt have to pay 5k to this employer.
The more people do this sort of stuff, the more employers get away with it
This bonding caper in GA is rubbish, if you are type rated there is nothing to be bonded for !
Rates in GA are already far too low without forking out money you don't have.
There are plenty of industries/careers that pay far better $$$ than GA, that don't ask for your money when you sign up.
Don't agree to be bonded, it won't last !
You did'nt have to pay 5k to this employer.
The more people do this sort of stuff, the more employers get away with it
This bonding caper in GA is rubbish, if you are type rated there is nothing to be bonded for !
Rates in GA are already far too low without forking out money you don't have.
There are plenty of industries/careers that pay far better $$$ than GA, that don't ask for your money when you sign up.
Don't agree to be bonded, it won't last !
PPRuNeaholic
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It seems to me that, if you sign an employment contract/agreement which includes this scam, it's probably legally enforceable simply because you signed on the dotted line. However, I seriously doubt that any shonky mob would go to the expense of legal action - or risk you instigating it after a visit by their debt collector. Anything that results in the aforesaid shonk being named in court would be poison to them, especially if operating in a remote area because they risk being compelled to pay more money to pilots - possibly including an allowance for remote area operations.
So just wish them luck as you wave them goodbye - and keep the 5K in the bank... if you've got it.
About the only fly in the ointment that I can see would be if they actually provided you with an endorsement or rating or some such thing that makes you more useful to them. That would be a different scenario entirely and has been part of the industry for a real long time.
So just wish them luck as you wave them goodbye - and keep the 5K in the bank... if you've got it.
About the only fly in the ointment that I can see would be if they actually provided you with an endorsement or rating or some such thing that makes you more useful to them. That would be a different scenario entirely and has been part of the industry for a real long time.
