Standard of Aviation English
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Endor
Age: 83
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Standard of Aviation English
Without wishing to name call or anything suchlike, I believe that the standard "Cambridge Certificate" English pass required from overseass students is too low a standard, either that, or the teaching of English as a second language is abysmal, at least Victoria.
To all you skygods, tootlling about at FL030 it probably isn't an issue, but it's a source of irritation to me sometimes and I also suspect to ATC and various suburban towers (YMMB).
Now we all stutter and say dumb things when we start out, and the long suffering ATC and Towers put up with us, but it concerned me yesterday listening to Melbourne Radar trying to give instructions to someone and get a clear readback in incredibly accented English. This takes up valuable time on frequency and must increase their workload and costs.
I didn't mind doing an orbit yesterday to clear a student who was tracking for Avalon, at least he had made his call, even if he wasn't going to deviate in the slightest from his chosen track despite the fact that he was slowly overtaking. I have however heard ATC get exasperated to the point where they stated on frequency "I've told you three times to XXXX".
I'm not sure that the old excuse "Well they will learn eventually" is good enough, neither for the student or the rest of the community. For the student, the ability to communicate successfully in an emergency is important for them, and for the rest of us, I'm concerned about the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, one hole being a toungue tied fellow pilot.
I wonder if it might be possible to develop (if one doesn't already exist) a computer based training package that can take these kids (and perhaps a few of us) through an "Aviation English" course, complete with challenges and responses and the common and not so common scenarios.
To all you skygods, tootlling about at FL030 it probably isn't an issue, but it's a source of irritation to me sometimes and I also suspect to ATC and various suburban towers (YMMB).
Now we all stutter and say dumb things when we start out, and the long suffering ATC and Towers put up with us, but it concerned me yesterday listening to Melbourne Radar trying to give instructions to someone and get a clear readback in incredibly accented English. This takes up valuable time on frequency and must increase their workload and costs.
I didn't mind doing an orbit yesterday to clear a student who was tracking for Avalon, at least he had made his call, even if he wasn't going to deviate in the slightest from his chosen track despite the fact that he was slowly overtaking. I have however heard ATC get exasperated to the point where they stated on frequency "I've told you three times to XXXX".
I'm not sure that the old excuse "Well they will learn eventually" is good enough, neither for the student or the rest of the community. For the student, the ability to communicate successfully in an emergency is important for them, and for the rest of us, I'm concerned about the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, one hole being a toungue tied fellow pilot.
I wonder if it might be possible to develop (if one doesn't already exist) a computer based training package that can take these kids (and perhaps a few of us) through an "Aviation English" course, complete with challenges and responses and the common and not so common scenarios.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Darwin
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree Mate , my common english is pretty average though im schooling to rectfy .
My point is however is that Basair and alike don't care as long as there shooting out pilots at the other end , pls correct me if im wrong . I belive these companies need to have better selection protocols in place rather than just heaps of coin behind them . If overseas pilots want to come to Australia to learn im all for that , if it keeps our instructors in jobs ect . I think a Training package as mentioned above is a great idea ...(hell would not hurt for alot of our own pilots me included to do a course like that )
My point is however is that Basair and alike don't care as long as there shooting out pilots at the other end , pls correct me if im wrong . I belive these companies need to have better selection protocols in place rather than just heaps of coin behind them . If overseas pilots want to come to Australia to learn im all for that , if it keeps our instructors in jobs ect . I think a Training package as mentioned above is a great idea ...(hell would not hurt for alot of our own pilots me included to do a course like that )
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hasn't CASA brought out DVD's covering all types of airspace at most controled airports already to help this problem.
At least those guys are on radar or people in the area are getting traffic advice. I'm having problems with all pilots not monitoring the right frequency, not talking or have no idea where they are. I wish they would bring back CTAF's and MBZ's but thats another problem
At least those guys are on radar or people in the area are getting traffic advice. I'm having problems with all pilots not monitoring the right frequency, not talking or have no idea where they are. I wish they would bring back CTAF's and MBZ's but thats another problem
Anyway, this issue was recognised sometime by ICAO and English proficiency will be an ICAO requirement by March 2008. Here's more about it; http://www.rmitenglishworldwide.com/icao.html
Ironically, that webpage comes from a Uni which many of its own cadet pilots from North Asia have poor English proficiency!
Ironically, that webpage comes from a Uni which many of its own cadet pilots from North Asia have poor English proficiency!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree it's a problem and one that has been around for a while, the cadets at Tamworth in the 90's were pretty bad to, I know when doing a license conversion it is up to the instructor doing the flight review to asses the standard of english but I'm unsure of the rules as far as a student training here is concerned.
Don Pollack was running a aviation english course with his wife, he probably has all the information one would need to run the course. Ive lost contact with him over the years but the last I heard he was in mount beauty Victoria.
Don Pollack was running a aviation english course with his wife, he probably has all the information one would need to run the course. Ive lost contact with him over the years but the last I heard he was in mount beauty Victoria.
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Land of OZ
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I, too, have been frustrated by this problem. Having some experience with these students I can say that ICAO requires the student to have a Level 4 pass to fly internationally and Level 3 for Domestic in their own country. Unfortunately when it comes to non-standard and/or unusual requests the student's real grasp of English is demonstrated. 
Maybe the ICAO standards need to be reviewed.
Maybe the ICAO standards need to be reviewed.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Wherever I Lay my Hat...
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Written language
I've been waiting for anyone else to mention it, but it seems no one is going to...
The standard of written expression amongst a group that collectively wraps themselves in so-called 'professionalism' is bloody appalling!!!! There is obviously no standard of spelling, punctuation or grammar any more -there is no need to look too far to see myriad examples of the abysmal 'standards' to which I refer.
I can tell you now, whenever a CV or piece of correspondence crosses my desk that is full of the grammatical, spelling, punctuation and typographical error so prevalent here, it just goes straight in the bin. Why? Because anyone that sends me such a poorly constructed and checked document has already told me that they have no professional standards. They may know the word 'professionalism' and even use it, but they have no concept of what it means. That's not the sort of person I want or need in my business.
Usually it is not those for whom English is a second-language that are the worst either -it's native English-speakers that worst express themselves in written language. For this I partially blame the current education system and rampant political correctness -kids being taught that a good crack at it is as good as getting it right... it bloody ain't so -especially in aviation. If you nearly get it right, your mostly dead passengers are hardly likely to be grateful to you for a good effort.
In short, there are shortcomings in the education systems that currently exist that create the false impression of 'near enough is good enough'. When you participate in a professional activity, it is up to you to lift your game to meet the standards necessary within that activity. The way you express yourself in written language is an essential and meaningful part of the aviation environment.
Lift your game.
The standard of written expression amongst a group that collectively wraps themselves in so-called 'professionalism' is bloody appalling!!!! There is obviously no standard of spelling, punctuation or grammar any more -there is no need to look too far to see myriad examples of the abysmal 'standards' to which I refer.
I can tell you now, whenever a CV or piece of correspondence crosses my desk that is full of the grammatical, spelling, punctuation and typographical error so prevalent here, it just goes straight in the bin. Why? Because anyone that sends me such a poorly constructed and checked document has already told me that they have no professional standards. They may know the word 'professionalism' and even use it, but they have no concept of what it means. That's not the sort of person I want or need in my business.
Usually it is not those for whom English is a second-language that are the worst either -it's native English-speakers that worst express themselves in written language. For this I partially blame the current education system and rampant political correctness -kids being taught that a good crack at it is as good as getting it right... it bloody ain't so -especially in aviation. If you nearly get it right, your mostly dead passengers are hardly likely to be grateful to you for a good effort.
In short, there are shortcomings in the education systems that currently exist that create the false impression of 'near enough is good enough'. When you participate in a professional activity, it is up to you to lift your game to meet the standards necessary within that activity. The way you express yourself in written language is an essential and meaningful part of the aviation environment.
Lift your game.
Last edited by kiwiblue; 17th Mar 2007 at 23:11.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Belfast
Age: 50
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This all reminds me of a aprocphal story, (who knows if it is true, but it is bloody funny, so let it go)
Sat on the tarmac at Frankfiurt airport, the pilot of a Lufthansa jet to Munich, got on the net to ATC in German, and asked for permission for a start and push back.
The reply, came about in German saying...
..."Wann sie mochten auf Flucht controlle Sprechen, sie musst auf Englisch sprechen"
("If you want to talk to Air Traffic control, you must speak English")
the Lufthansa pilot said (in German)...
"Ich setzte hier in eine Deutshes registariart flugzeug, auf einem Deutsches Flughafen, und ich will jetzt nach einem anderes Deutsces Flughafen fliegen, Warum musse ich auf Englisch Sprechen?"
Translated as...
"I am sitting in a German registered plane, at a German airport, and I am flying to another German airport. why must I speak English?"
The reply came back in perfect, heavily accented Cambridge taught English...
"Because Old chap, It was us, with the assistance of the rest of the English speaking world, and not yourselves that won the War. So speak English to me, or I shall treat you with the contempt that you, and the rest of your nation so obviously deserves"
Classic
Sat on the tarmac at Frankfiurt airport, the pilot of a Lufthansa jet to Munich, got on the net to ATC in German, and asked for permission for a start and push back.
The reply, came about in German saying...
..."Wann sie mochten auf Flucht controlle Sprechen, sie musst auf Englisch sprechen"
("If you want to talk to Air Traffic control, you must speak English")
the Lufthansa pilot said (in German)...
"Ich setzte hier in eine Deutshes registariart flugzeug, auf einem Deutsches Flughafen, und ich will jetzt nach einem anderes Deutsces Flughafen fliegen, Warum musse ich auf Englisch Sprechen?"
Translated as...
"I am sitting in a German registered plane, at a German airport, and I am flying to another German airport. why must I speak English?"
The reply came back in perfect, heavily accented Cambridge taught English...
"Because Old chap, It was us, with the assistance of the rest of the English speaking world, and not yourselves that won the War. So speak English to me, or I shall treat you with the contempt that you, and the rest of your nation so obviously deserves"
Classic
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prune english
Many of the posts on Prune are ambiguous, or unintelligeable. Quite a few have expressed an opinion that good english is not important. IT IS.
Pilots are required to be able to communicate clearly and unambiguously both verbally and in writing. It is a major part of the job.
We ALL have to keep working on it.
Pilots are required to be able to communicate clearly and unambiguously both verbally and in writing. It is a major part of the job.
We ALL have to keep working on it.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Syd
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I just ask if anyone else at BK has noticed over recent years how more and more often the guys in the tower are asking someone to "repeat" last transmission due to pilot's being virtually unable to speak english?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, someone must have flown with those guys before they let them loose on the radio. or worse still, solo in CTA. Never mind, we all know we can rely on good old CASA to keep an eye on the situation.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was of the impression that you cannot get your SPL, unless you have been certified as being able to speak fluent English.....
So, some of the blame isn't necessarily on the pilot's themselves, but on the flying school that it teaching them.
So, some of the blame isn't necessarily on the pilot's themselves, but on the flying school that it teaching them.
AustralianMade
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Out in the weather!
Age: 54
Posts: 917
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
William OK & others, who express the opinion that the flying schools must take some responsibility for the English proficiency of their students, you are right, but you make me laugh, most schools I have visited would trample over their own grandmothers to make an extra buck, shoving an illiterate student through in order to fill another place (at $100K) is common practise.
Grandpa Aerotart
Don't expect the new ICAO mandated English language tests to fix it either.
When pilots from sundry non English speaking airlines start failing in sufficient numbers to cause flt ops rostering dramas they will be dropped post haste...in fact long before it starts causing rostering problems.
The English language requirement will simply become another area of non compliance with ICAO and that will be that. In this PC world it will be viewed as rascist or discriminatory and ignored completely or simply have lip service paid, like all other 'standards' that cause inconveniance. Applied comprehensively far too many pilots and ATCOs world wide would be forced out of the industry either short term, while corrective courses were undertaken and passed, or permanently.
That just will not happen.
When pilots from sundry non English speaking airlines start failing in sufficient numbers to cause flt ops rostering dramas they will be dropped post haste...in fact long before it starts causing rostering problems.
The English language requirement will simply become another area of non compliance with ICAO and that will be that. In this PC world it will be viewed as rascist or discriminatory and ignored completely or simply have lip service paid, like all other 'standards' that cause inconveniance. Applied comprehensively far too many pilots and ATCOs world wide would be forced out of the industry either short term, while corrective courses were undertaken and passed, or permanently.
That just will not happen.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Usually Oz
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Further to kiwiblue's comments, FL030 is well below the Transition Altitude.
Above that altitude around the world, English is a fascinating variable.
The good news is that current license holders are to be "grandfathered" and exempt from testing.
G'day
Above that altitude around the world, English is a fascinating variable.
The good news is that current license holders are to be "grandfathered" and exempt from testing.
G'day
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Somewhere in Indo...
Age: 48
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many will it take?
Is this going to end up being another situation, where it takes a plane load of people to die, and a cockpit voice recorder full of:
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
...
Pilots: OH SH*T!!!
{lots of static}
before something happens?
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
Pilots: (incomprehensible english)
ATC: Flight XXX, say again
...
Pilots: OH SH*T!!!
{lots of static}
before something happens?
Grandpa Aerotart
What makes you think it will change then?
It will not.
And it could just as well be;
Pilot "perfect english" (irrespective of nationality)
ATC "unintelligable"
Just a week or so ago an Etihad widebody declared Pan Pan in Saudi airspace with a failing engine. They were on the air route that goes up along the Iraqi border from UAE to Europe via Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey etc...multiple calls later the Jeddah ATC chappy finally came up in his version of english and started asking a bunch of stupid, barely intelligable questions..even other aircraft on frequency had tried to help getting the Pan call heard and then intervened to tell the ATC fella to shut up and let them get on with it. They diverted to Amman (Jordan) and landed safely, job well done, Saudi ATC were irrelevant to the outcome.
The very high standards of ATC in Australia, NZ, UK etc are not universal...and the barely intelligable cadets you hear about the place will be gracing a widebody cockpit soon.
There is no 'one standard' as ICAO would have you believe...ICAO is just a theory of what a perfect world might be like.
It will not.
And it could just as well be;
Pilot "perfect english" (irrespective of nationality)
ATC "unintelligable"
Just a week or so ago an Etihad widebody declared Pan Pan in Saudi airspace with a failing engine. They were on the air route that goes up along the Iraqi border from UAE to Europe via Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey etc...multiple calls later the Jeddah ATC chappy finally came up in his version of english and started asking a bunch of stupid, barely intelligable questions..even other aircraft on frequency had tried to help getting the Pan call heard and then intervened to tell the ATC fella to shut up and let them get on with it. They diverted to Amman (Jordan) and landed safely, job well done, Saudi ATC were irrelevant to the outcome.
The very high standards of ATC in Australia, NZ, UK etc are not universal...and the barely intelligable cadets you hear about the place will be gracing a widebody cockpit soon.
There is no 'one standard' as ICAO would have you believe...ICAO is just a theory of what a perfect world might be like.