Difficult captains
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,202
Likes: 4
From: Surrounding the localizer
The Brits, for all their faults, are far more pragmatic about aviation matters than Australasians (yes, I include my fellow Kiwis). They hire on the basis of qualification, not on the basis of arse-licking ability.
Difficult Captains can be dealt with in a number of ways.....
Here are a couple of techniques I have used on ex mil, or big airways drivers..
"Is that right? are you sure? are you reaaaaaaaaaaaalllY sure?!
"Oh ok............but thats not what Mr Boeing test pilot says"
"I thought this was my sector"
"Trust me, I can almost walk unaided
"Or for after the flight.....in the Bar
"do that again and I'll knock you effin block off....CVR or no CVR"
"I don't care if you've got 5000hrs command in a saab340 flyin around ulllleroooo, your still an arrogant tw@t"
Just a few that may or may not help, all have worked to varying degrees for me
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 4
From: Qld troppo
When the Captain gives me stupid advice I just tell him to "shut the f*ck up"!
I use the sample approach with an idiot F/O!
They get such a shock at my attitude that I always seem to get away with it.
But then again - I fly single pilot!
FTDK
I use the sample approach with an idiot F/O!
They get such a shock at my attitude that I always seem to get away with it.
But then again - I fly single pilot!
FTDK
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
From: Brisbane
Its a Democracy..........
So I looked up the dictionary and here a few examples
1. Democracy: be reasonable and do it my way!
2. Democracy: its your democratic right to do exactly as I say
or
Rule No.1 The Captain is always right
Rule No. 2 If in doubt refer rule No. 1
all jokes really
J
So I looked up the dictionary and here a few examples
1. Democracy: be reasonable and do it my way!
2. Democracy: its your democratic right to do exactly as I say
or
Rule No.1 The Captain is always right
Rule No. 2 If in doubt refer rule No. 1
all jokes really
J
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
Bloggsie I thought it was "I am the captain, you're the resource, prepare to be managed"
haughty in a previous life where we actually had old style captains who would occassionally suggest the most bizarre departures from basic airmanship, let alone SOP, my response was usually "You wanna do what?" followed by "And just what the !!!! do you think I will doing while you try that?"
The classic example was a captain who decided that the next sector, nominally my sector, was his because he "may have to bust the minima to get in"...this was in an RPT jet. The conversation went like this;
"Yeah?"
"Yes...to get the job done"
"Well I'll just pop into ops and get them to send out a dumber/braver FO then"
"You wouldn't do that...would you?"
"In a fecking heart beat!!!" (my exact words)
"But we have to keep the show on the road"
"XYZ I will call minima and if you're not visual you will go around...if you do not the very next words you will hear will be "I have control"...am I being fairly clear?"
"Umm...ok your sector"
There wasn't a cloud in the sky at the destination.
A couple of years later that individual was going to be demoted but 'retired' instead...last I heard he is drinking himself to death (literally)...even in those days he was an advanced alcoholic. It is important to note that I didn't get hysterical or raise my voice...I just made, and maintained, eye contact and calmly told him what I would do. We even remained 'friends' afterwards...or more accurately socially civil....certainly I had earned his respect...that doesn't mean he was just testing me, he really would have done it with a less assertive FO....he had tried the exact same thing with a previous FO who had subsequently become a captain. There were good reasons for his subsequent demotion...a LONG list of similarly stupid actions and threatened behaviour that eventually led me and others to go into print on the guy...and thankfully management listened.
The above is an extreme example of a bad captain...I doubt you'd ever see it's like in this day and age but it is possible in some third world airlines (which this one was). The reason I had the respect of the captains I flew with was because I didn't sweat the little things...but there was a point I would not pass.
All airlines are 'captain's airlines'...that means you will virtually never win over a captain even if he is wrong...live with it, or leave.
After I had written my report years later after an even more bizarre departure from SOPs airborne, again totally unemotionally, I bumped into the Fleet manager (a good guy) and said "Oh I have that report, you want it now?"
"No" and a pained look.
"No problems if you want I will destroy it"
"Yeah?"
"Yup, easy....it's completely up to you...do nothing if you like....but one day you'll get a phone call from me at some far flung outport asking to be replaced...and I will absolutely not be talked into 'just bringing the aircraft home'...the jet will stay parked until you send another pilot."
He took the report and took action...I subsequently learned that a handfull of other FOs went into print when they heard I had...and I also subsequenty learned from within the C&Ting establishment that I had earned great respect from the Fleet manager.
haughty in a previous life where we actually had old style captains who would occassionally suggest the most bizarre departures from basic airmanship, let alone SOP, my response was usually "You wanna do what?" followed by "And just what the !!!! do you think I will doing while you try that?"
The classic example was a captain who decided that the next sector, nominally my sector, was his because he "may have to bust the minima to get in"...this was in an RPT jet. The conversation went like this;
"Yeah?"
"Yes...to get the job done"
"Well I'll just pop into ops and get them to send out a dumber/braver FO then"
"You wouldn't do that...would you?"
"In a fecking heart beat!!!" (my exact words)
"But we have to keep the show on the road"
"XYZ I will call minima and if you're not visual you will go around...if you do not the very next words you will hear will be "I have control"...am I being fairly clear?"
"Umm...ok your sector"
There wasn't a cloud in the sky at the destination.
A couple of years later that individual was going to be demoted but 'retired' instead...last I heard he is drinking himself to death (literally)...even in those days he was an advanced alcoholic. It is important to note that I didn't get hysterical or raise my voice...I just made, and maintained, eye contact and calmly told him what I would do. We even remained 'friends' afterwards...or more accurately socially civil....certainly I had earned his respect...that doesn't mean he was just testing me, he really would have done it with a less assertive FO....he had tried the exact same thing with a previous FO who had subsequently become a captain. There were good reasons for his subsequent demotion...a LONG list of similarly stupid actions and threatened behaviour that eventually led me and others to go into print on the guy...and thankfully management listened.
The above is an extreme example of a bad captain...I doubt you'd ever see it's like in this day and age but it is possible in some third world airlines (which this one was). The reason I had the respect of the captains I flew with was because I didn't sweat the little things...but there was a point I would not pass.
All airlines are 'captain's airlines'...that means you will virtually never win over a captain even if he is wrong...live with it, or leave.
After I had written my report years later after an even more bizarre departure from SOPs airborne, again totally unemotionally, I bumped into the Fleet manager (a good guy) and said "Oh I have that report, you want it now?"
"No" and a pained look.
"No problems if you want I will destroy it"
"Yeah?"
"Yup, easy....it's completely up to you...do nothing if you like....but one day you'll get a phone call from me at some far flung outport asking to be replaced...and I will absolutely not be talked into 'just bringing the aircraft home'...the jet will stay parked until you send another pilot."
He took the report and took action...I subsequently learned that a handfull of other FOs went into print when they heard I had...and I also subsequenty learned from within the C&Ting establishment that I had earned great respect from the Fleet manager.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,312
Likes: 0
From: back of the crew bus
Had a similar experience with an ex-RAF fast jet guy that ended up as IRE/TRE on the Jetstream 31. We used to do base checks on the aircraft, two at a time. After my check, I got out of my (RH) seat to change with the other guy, and felt an odd sensation... turned around to see the horizon rotating in the windshield with the green bits at the top! Asked the trainer what the @#&^ he thought he was doing... "aileron rolls old chap. Perfectly safe..."
Got back on the ground and did some investigating. Turned out that this was a common occurence with this guy, but all the F/Os were so scared of losing their jobs that nobody would say anything. I thought that I should, but before I got the chance, the decision was taken away from me (thankfully). Turns out our hero had gone slightly negative G during a roll, and had emptied the contents of the toilet all over the cabin ceiling whilst inverted. Engineers saw the blue tidemark and dobbed him in, and we all had to go and testify at his disciplinary. The fleet was grounded for spar checks.
That guy lost his job, but was back training within a year (on BAC 1-11s).
Got back on the ground and did some investigating. Turned out that this was a common occurence with this guy, but all the F/Os were so scared of losing their jobs that nobody would say anything. I thought that I should, but before I got the chance, the decision was taken away from me (thankfully). Turns out our hero had gone slightly negative G during a roll, and had emptied the contents of the toilet all over the cabin ceiling whilst inverted. Engineers saw the blue tidemark and dobbed him in, and we all had to go and testify at his disciplinary. The fleet was grounded for spar checks.
That guy lost his job, but was back training within a year (on BAC 1-11s).
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 502
Likes: 3
From: everywhere
Chimbu Chuckles probably has the best advice..
Quite possibly some advice coming from a captain might be constructive critism and maybe you should have a go, it might actually improve on some aspects of your flying.
If you believe the advice is just an excuse to break balls then memorise some of chuckles tecniques to blow off the attack.
Quite possibly some advice coming from a captain might be constructive critism and maybe you should have a go, it might actually improve on some aspects of your flying.
If you believe the advice is just an excuse to break balls then memorise some of chuckles tecniques to blow off the attack.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,202
Likes: 4
From: Surrounding the localizer
I should add for balance that my last two comments were directed at the same guy..on/after the same flight
Interestingly enough...this same guy has recently (in the last 6 months) been demoted from a certain Mid East carrier...and faces the sack
99.9% of the guys in the left seat I fly with are pure gentlemen to fly with.
Interestingly enough...this same guy has recently (in the last 6 months) been demoted from a certain Mid East carrier...and faces the sack
99.9% of the guys in the left seat I fly with are pure gentlemen to fly with.
