What does ATC do that 'irks' you?
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What does ATC do that irks you?
Hello everyone,
I posted a new thread on the ATC forum asking air traffic controllers to list the things that pilots do that makes their blood boil.
The reason is that I am a CRM facilitator and was wanting to gather information to pass onto fellow aviators to aid in understanding our relative roles.
There was some great stuff there - check out the thread on the ATC forum called "What do pilots do that irk you".
Then one of them suggested that they could learn from pilots as well and invited me to start a thread... so here it is.
So feel free to write your gripes here... and hopefully we can all learn, adjust the way we do things... and make all our lives easier and flying more efficient.
I'll get the ball rolling...
The scene is Townsville airport. I am captain of a Chinook helicopter and we taxi out to taxiway bravo where we are abeam the threshold of the main runway and with a clear view of the approaches to it and the second runway. There is no visible traffic and no radio traffic either. The airspace is quiet. We are keen to depart for we have to make a specific timing. It's a local flight to within 10 miles of the CTR, so coordination with Approach should not be necessary.
Us: "Townsville Tower, Chinook One Zero Four, Ready, Taxiway Bravo, departure to the east."
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Hold."
No reason why... which is OK... It's their perogative... but we have a time-on-target and every second is precious so we get a little frustrated. The delay goes on...
Us: "Townsville tower, can you give us the expected delay?"
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Stand by. Will call you when you are cleared for departure."
Now we're frustrated... and pissed off!
Whilst an explanation is not necessary, it certainly is a nice to have.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... but I've learnt to breathe deeply and go to my happy place.
I posted a new thread on the ATC forum asking air traffic controllers to list the things that pilots do that makes their blood boil.
The reason is that I am a CRM facilitator and was wanting to gather information to pass onto fellow aviators to aid in understanding our relative roles.
There was some great stuff there - check out the thread on the ATC forum called "What do pilots do that irk you".
Then one of them suggested that they could learn from pilots as well and invited me to start a thread... so here it is.
So feel free to write your gripes here... and hopefully we can all learn, adjust the way we do things... and make all our lives easier and flying more efficient.
I'll get the ball rolling...
The scene is Townsville airport. I am captain of a Chinook helicopter and we taxi out to taxiway bravo where we are abeam the threshold of the main runway and with a clear view of the approaches to it and the second runway. There is no visible traffic and no radio traffic either. The airspace is quiet. We are keen to depart for we have to make a specific timing. It's a local flight to within 10 miles of the CTR, so coordination with Approach should not be necessary.
Us: "Townsville Tower, Chinook One Zero Four, Ready, Taxiway Bravo, departure to the east."
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Hold."
No reason why... which is OK... It's their perogative... but we have a time-on-target and every second is precious so we get a little frustrated. The delay goes on...
Us: "Townsville tower, can you give us the expected delay?"
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Stand by. Will call you when you are cleared for departure."
Now we're frustrated... and pissed off!
Whilst an explanation is not necessary, it certainly is a nice to have.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... but I've learnt to breathe deeply and go to my happy place.
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They (ATC) seem to be much better in some other countries at advising why you are being held /delayed/jinked about etc. Even some places that are far far busier than Oz.
If you are going to be screwed about, it's always nice to know why etc... (and in advance) it keeps the frustration levels down.
Traffic advice both enroute and in the TMA is something that I believe could be done a little better, especially when there is a chance of TCAS alerts etc. Trouble is that the controllers that do it say that some pilots just don't know what to do with the advice, so do nothing and some ATC supervisors say its a waste of time and not SOPS. Give me traffic any day and its appreciated, even when there is not a sep problem. I recall a 737 going around behind a dash8, because he was overtaking him on final. It would not have been all that hard to provide timely traffic to the dash (he would keep his speed up) and the 73 would have had the chance to slow down. But it didn't happen and the GA was assured.
ASA recently put out a memo to operators about the problems on the ground at SYD. Talk about telling pilots how to suck eggs! It seems to blame the pilots and operators for all the problems at SYD and goes to great lengths to explain the coord requirements of the controllers. Interesting point is that the same pilots / operators go elsewhere and there is no problem, so the issue is very much a SYD problem. About time someone in ASA thought outside the box in an effort to solve the issues there. Some more resources in the tower for a start, maybe an extra coord or perhaps a 3rd SMC. See what the FAA do at SFO - might learn something??
my 2c worth!!
If you are going to be screwed about, it's always nice to know why etc... (and in advance) it keeps the frustration levels down.
Traffic advice both enroute and in the TMA is something that I believe could be done a little better, especially when there is a chance of TCAS alerts etc. Trouble is that the controllers that do it say that some pilots just don't know what to do with the advice, so do nothing and some ATC supervisors say its a waste of time and not SOPS. Give me traffic any day and its appreciated, even when there is not a sep problem. I recall a 737 going around behind a dash8, because he was overtaking him on final. It would not have been all that hard to provide timely traffic to the dash (he would keep his speed up) and the 73 would have had the chance to slow down. But it didn't happen and the GA was assured.
ASA recently put out a memo to operators about the problems on the ground at SYD. Talk about telling pilots how to suck eggs! It seems to blame the pilots and operators for all the problems at SYD and goes to great lengths to explain the coord requirements of the controllers. Interesting point is that the same pilots / operators go elsewhere and there is no problem, so the issue is very much a SYD problem. About time someone in ASA thought outside the box in an effort to solve the issues there. Some more resources in the tower for a start, maybe an extra coord or perhaps a 3rd SMC. See what the FAA do at SFO - might learn something??
my 2c worth!!
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What does ATC do that irks you?
Seriously, though... when operating London-Edinburgh a few years back, we would often get turned 20 degrees off track to accommodate a BA 757 shuttle (we were in a 146). The shuttle wasn't going that much quicker than we were, and always wanted to be positioned for a 14 mile final, from which point it would slow down to 140 kts (visual or not) and take an eternity to get to the runway. We were more than happy to accept a five mile final (on a visual day), and keep our speed up to 250 kts until about 7 miles out. In other words, if radar had kept us inside the 757, we would never have slowed the shuttle down, but the shuttle ALWAYS extended our flight time by 3-4 minutes. For some arcane procedural reason that ATC could never satisfactorily explain, they refused to alter their "order of arrival". The friendly controllers that did help us out, apparently got bollocked for it.
BTW our crews made it a practice to visit with the tower and approach radar guys at least once a month, and they used to come jumpseating with us. Great way to learn each other's worlds.
In Australia -the seeming lack of ability to use radar to good effect, especially for track shortning. From Sydney, Brisbane and Perth (DONT get me started on Darwin!
) I have wasted vast amounts of fuel over the years following SIDS and STARS to their full extent whilst being in a "Radar Enviroment". Having regularly flown in and out of cities on every continent except Antartica my experience has been that Australia is the only place where this is apparently the norm. Also a lack of understanding of relative performance abilities of different aircraft types, it is a delight to work with controllers who can understand the different capabilities of aircraft and make us all "dance" in harmony. How many times do we have to "Make your descent at 230 Kts For Sequencing" to then end up ten miles behind the preceding aircraft (same weight category or less)!
Perhaps Aussie ATC should be sent to spend time with Maastricht, Rhien, Chicago, LA, Miami, London etc. to see what can be done (and with a lot more traffic!). Radar should not be there just to "watch" pilots do their thing. As the debate grows about aviation's influence on "Global Warming" we should at least start from a position of not being wasteful of resources.
Useful information like wind direction and speed with take off and landing clearances would be appreciated (Perth are quite good at that-thanks!)
OCTA is a crock but we all know that except for the pollys. Maybe MEL and BNE centres should use the same procedures, however?
I believe that ATC wants to do a great job but we need to join the 21st century folks!
) I have wasted vast amounts of fuel over the years following SIDS and STARS to their full extent whilst being in a "Radar Enviroment". Having regularly flown in and out of cities on every continent except Antartica my experience has been that Australia is the only place where this is apparently the norm. Also a lack of understanding of relative performance abilities of different aircraft types, it is a delight to work with controllers who can understand the different capabilities of aircraft and make us all "dance" in harmony. How many times do we have to "Make your descent at 230 Kts For Sequencing" to then end up ten miles behind the preceding aircraft (same weight category or less)!Perhaps Aussie ATC should be sent to spend time with Maastricht, Rhien, Chicago, LA, Miami, London etc. to see what can be done (and with a lot more traffic!). Radar should not be there just to "watch" pilots do their thing. As the debate grows about aviation's influence on "Global Warming" we should at least start from a position of not being wasteful of resources.
Useful information like wind direction and speed with take off and landing clearances would be appreciated (Perth are quite good at that-thanks!)
OCTA is a crock but we all know that except for the pollys. Maybe MEL and BNE centres should use the same procedures, however?
I believe that ATC wants to do a great job but we need to join the 21st century folks!
Bottums Up
Darwin
Receive a STAR that adds 30-40 TRK miles then be offered direct to a 5nm final once on approach. The only way to accept is to either catch the cabin or up the rate, while deploying speed brakes to gain the ROD.
Have speed restrictions below A100 canceled when passing F140ish, thus stuffing the descent profile yet again.
BN CTR/CNS App
Get speed reductions at or just before TOPD, to lose 2 or 3 mins by BIB with only 8 mins to run to BIB.
Or, get the cross BIB time early enough, just, to comply by reducing to min crz, only to be told to resume desired speed or make best speed.
BN CTR
One controller, only, who insists that "when ready leave control area on descent" is a mandatory readback. It's not a level assignment therefore it is my interpretation that it is not a readback requirement.
Perth (Though not ATC's fault).
STARS and SIDs that make one turn off track, to shortly thereafter turn the opposite direction to return to the original WPT. It's a wonder that more people aren't airsick.
Receive a STAR that adds 30-40 TRK miles then be offered direct to a 5nm final once on approach. The only way to accept is to either catch the cabin or up the rate, while deploying speed brakes to gain the ROD.
Have speed restrictions below A100 canceled when passing F140ish, thus stuffing the descent profile yet again.
BN CTR/CNS App
Get speed reductions at or just before TOPD, to lose 2 or 3 mins by BIB with only 8 mins to run to BIB.
Or, get the cross BIB time early enough, just, to comply by reducing to min crz, only to be told to resume desired speed or make best speed.
BN CTR
One controller, only, who insists that "when ready leave control area on descent" is a mandatory readback. It's not a level assignment therefore it is my interpretation that it is not a readback requirement.
Perth (Though not ATC's fault).
STARS and SIDs that make one turn off track, to shortly thereafter turn the opposite direction to return to the original WPT. It's a wonder that more people aren't airsick.
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Capt C
You are correct - it is indeed the cancellation of a requirement (to maintain a level in CTA) and the cancellation of requirements do not require a readback - visual approach used to be the same till they amended the requirment to readback type of approach (!)
It's 10 years now since the changes in readbacks were introduced in Oz and both pilots and controllers still cant get it standardised! Blame CASA for the failure to provide appropriate education I say!! Those that don't understand or don't care default to reading it all back regardless and that was never the intention!
One controller, only, who insists that "when ready leave control area on descent" is a mandatory readback. It's not a level assignment therefore it is my interpretation that it is not a readback requirement.
It's 10 years now since the changes in readbacks were introduced in Oz and both pilots and controllers still cant get it standardised! Blame CASA for the failure to provide appropriate education I say!! Those that don't understand or don't care default to reading it all back regardless and that was never the intention!
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Capt Claret,
Perth SID/STAR/Route structure can no longer accomodate the increase in movements into, and out of, the Perth/Pearce/Jandakot Terminal Area. New SID/STAR have been proposed as an interim measure until a review of Western Australian airspace has been completed.
In 2003 an internal report of Breakdown of Separation in Australian airspace was published by Airservices Australia, called the BOS Review. Recommendation 14 of the review was to review Perth airspace and in particular, a collision risk associated with aircraft subject to a STAR clearance overshooting the turns at PEPPA and JENNA.
All recommendations of the BOS Review were required to have been implemented by the end of 2004.
It is now 2007 and the collision risk associated with Recommendation 14 still exists.
Perth SID/STAR/Route structure can no longer accomodate the increase in movements into, and out of, the Perth/Pearce/Jandakot Terminal Area. New SID/STAR have been proposed as an interim measure until a review of Western Australian airspace has been completed.
In 2003 an internal report of Breakdown of Separation in Australian airspace was published by Airservices Australia, called the BOS Review. Recommendation 14 of the review was to review Perth airspace and in particular, a collision risk associated with aircraft subject to a STAR clearance overshooting the turns at PEPPA and JENNA.
All recommendations of the BOS Review were required to have been implemented by the end of 2004.
It is now 2007 and the collision risk associated with Recommendation 14 still exists.
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For me it is the simple fact that many of their number often forget that they are providing a service and we are their customers.
If the customer is an idiot then the service provider needs to adjust the delivery style to ensure the continuity of good service. The really good service providers around the world are aware of this, do just that, and the result is high customer satisfaction and a strong business. It is normally the monopolies that falter here.
On the whole our Aussie guys and gals are some of the best and I love working with them. The worst offenders have to be the Yanks. Check out the Runway Chart in the Jepps for Nashville Tennessee. They actually have the balls to print a "penalty box" within the taxiway system. I'm really hoping they try that on me one day so I can really tell them what I think. I actually have a pretty long fuse but that concept would shorten it very quickly. You see, I see no such penalty box for poor performers within their ranks.
Reading through my flight plan from Amsterdam to Bangkok a few weeks back I noticed details of the Air Services charges (why that was on my flight plan I'll never know). For that one leg the total cost across the various service providers was just a tad over $10,000 US dollars. I know I'm not footing the bill directly, but I sure would expect decent service for such fees.
Good luck with your CRM research project Sir.
If the customer is an idiot then the service provider needs to adjust the delivery style to ensure the continuity of good service. The really good service providers around the world are aware of this, do just that, and the result is high customer satisfaction and a strong business. It is normally the monopolies that falter here.
On the whole our Aussie guys and gals are some of the best and I love working with them. The worst offenders have to be the Yanks. Check out the Runway Chart in the Jepps for Nashville Tennessee. They actually have the balls to print a "penalty box" within the taxiway system. I'm really hoping they try that on me one day so I can really tell them what I think. I actually have a pretty long fuse but that concept would shorten it very quickly. You see, I see no such penalty box for poor performers within their ranks.
Reading through my flight plan from Amsterdam to Bangkok a few weeks back I noticed details of the Air Services charges (why that was on my flight plan I'll never know). For that one leg the total cost across the various service providers was just a tad over $10,000 US dollars. I know I'm not footing the bill directly, but I sure would expect decent service for such fees.
Good luck with your CRM research project Sir.
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Seriously, though... when operating London-Edinburgh a few years back, we would often get turned 20 degrees off track to accommodate a BA 757 shuttle (we were in a 146). The shuttle wasn't going that much quicker than we were, and always wanted to be positioned for a 14 mile final, from which point it would slow down to 140 kts (visual or not) and take an eternity to get to the runway.
For my money the worst thing ATC ever does is to keeeeeeep you high, and then expect a highspeed high energy descent, with no track miles to slow down (in a T/Prop no problems but in a jet its a FCUKEN nightmare) then try to vector you onto the ILS at 9 miles while you doin 240 knots with every drag creating device hung out...including the cabin crew
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G'day all,
First of all, great thread (and the one in ATC Issues) from which I hope EVERYONE can learn something. I hope, Conway, you can get what you need from this, and perhaps share some of your findings with us?
From an ATC's perspective, I wonder how many of these problems can be sorted by a formal cross-workplace 'work experience' program, like in the good old days? I loved getting up the pointy end and discussing problems from an ATC and pilot's perspective, and on the flip side, I enjoy having pilots plug in and watch me work. Now days, with cost and resource cutting (and security issues....), there is little opportunity for either camp to step into the other person's shoes (unless you do it in your time off....). I hope this changes.
Cheers all,
NFR.
First of all, great thread (and the one in ATC Issues) from which I hope EVERYONE can learn something. I hope, Conway, you can get what you need from this, and perhaps share some of your findings with us?
From an ATC's perspective, I wonder how many of these problems can be sorted by a formal cross-workplace 'work experience' program, like in the good old days? I loved getting up the pointy end and discussing problems from an ATC and pilot's perspective, and on the flip side, I enjoy having pilots plug in and watch me work. Now days, with cost and resource cutting (and security issues....), there is little opportunity for either camp to step into the other person's shoes (unless you do it in your time off....). I hope this changes.
Cheers all,
NFR.
Last edited by No Further Requirements; 3rd Feb 2007 at 14:36. Reason: Shockin' spellin'
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It appears that ATC have little regard or understanding of how slowing a jet down effects the descent profile, or how most modern jets have some form of FMC that needs programming and monitoring.
Eg. It used to annoy me when I would put the star into the box, with a descent speed of say 300kts standard. This would have the box compute a descent pt of x miles. We go down at x, then atc say slow to 240kts. This totally screws with the profile and as you slow to best lift/drag you need a sh.t ton of drag to get down.
On the 717 it was doable, on the 330,man , it is an ass puckerer.
If you (ATC) know it is going to occur (speed reductions) let us know early when you give us the star.
On a another note (for Alice Springs)
Changing circuits, ht reqments, radial intercepts and even runways below 5000ft is a recipe for pain, as one has to have ones head in to program the box. It is not as flexible as when flying a cessna.
Eg. It used to annoy me when I would put the star into the box, with a descent speed of say 300kts standard. This would have the box compute a descent pt of x miles. We go down at x, then atc say slow to 240kts. This totally screws with the profile and as you slow to best lift/drag you need a sh.t ton of drag to get down.
On the 717 it was doable, on the 330,man , it is an ass puckerer.
If you (ATC) know it is going to occur (speed reductions) let us know early when you give us the star.
On a another note (for Alice Springs)
Changing circuits, ht reqments, radial intercepts and even runways below 5000ft is a recipe for pain, as one has to have ones head in to program the box. It is not as flexible as when flying a cessna.
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Personally think most controllers do an absolutely great job......my irk times mainly involve controller hand-offs where it is obvious those doing the hand off dont relay information pertanent to "their" sector to the other controller(s)....mainly involving speeds and approach types......after setting the box up .....slam dunk decents...and expecting us to go down and slow down...
In all fairness it actually makes the day quite interesting in dealing with those situations and most controllers know that once they have pushed you into a corner will do all they can to help you out...all about communication really.....
...only time Ive ever been bitten, was trying to make a fool out of the controller .........that has a way of coming around and biting you in the arsephalt...PB
NB....Clive...mate,I want to be around when you give the yanks a piece of your mind about the "penalty box"....and then well see how much time you spend in it.........
In all fairness it actually makes the day quite interesting in dealing with those situations and most controllers know that once they have pushed you into a corner will do all they can to help you out...all about communication really.....
...only time Ive ever been bitten, was trying to make a fool out of the controller
.........that has a way of coming around and biting you in the arsephalt...PBNB....Clive...mate,I want to be around when you give the yanks a piece of your mind about the "penalty box"....and then well see how much time you spend in it.........
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Thanks guys and gals... keep 'em coming
Hi everyone, keep 'em coming. This stuff is gold!
Triadic -
Excellent point regarding readback. It's frustrating to hear the airwaves clogged up with superfluous readback. I'll reinforce that in my CRM courses.
Quokka -
Thanks for the feedback regarding WA issues. Knowing that you have an ATC background helps in educating us on the issues and the proposed solutions and the glacier-like speed the powers that be move to fix them. Cheers.
Clive -
For the uninitiated, can you elaborate on the 'Penalty Box'? I'm assuming it's when an aviator makes a transgression he/she loses their sequence and others are allowed to pass? Is it for ground handling or is it some airspace set aside for that?
F/O Bloggs -
Great point about having to have your head inside at (relatively) low altitude to change FMS whilst flying a heavy due to some ATC instructions. Low level, higher traffic area requires eyes and ears outside. ATC may not be aware of the intricacies of flying automated aircraft and the cockpit mayhem that occurs when changes are made too late in the approach.
Safe flying... and keep communicating!
Triadic -
Excellent point regarding readback. It's frustrating to hear the airwaves clogged up with superfluous readback. I'll reinforce that in my CRM courses.
Quokka -
Thanks for the feedback regarding WA issues. Knowing that you have an ATC background helps in educating us on the issues and the proposed solutions and the glacier-like speed the powers that be move to fix them. Cheers.
Clive -
For the uninitiated, can you elaborate on the 'Penalty Box'? I'm assuming it's when an aviator makes a transgression he/she loses their sequence and others are allowed to pass? Is it for ground handling or is it some airspace set aside for that?
F/O Bloggs -
Great point about having to have your head inside at (relatively) low altitude to change FMS whilst flying a heavy due to some ATC instructions. Low level, higher traffic area requires eyes and ears outside. ATC may not be aware of the intricacies of flying automated aircraft and the cockpit mayhem that occurs when changes are made too late in the approach.
Safe flying... and keep communicating!
1. Although already covered by Conway B, a simple explanation as to why other aircraft are being cleared for takeoff before you after your 'ready' call was first or at least just advise your number in the t/o sequence when this occurs. A few seconds of courtesy costs nothing and alleviates frustration.
2. The ignorant pig (only one) in SY tower/ground who gets his rocks off in belittling flight crew when assistance is asked or it does'nt go his way.
3. PRM approaches into YSSY. It must cost airlines tens of thousands, if not millions a year to operate into YSSY during the mornings when this system is in operation. Although, I appreciate this is not the fault of individual ATCers as it is more an ASA issue. I understand that Oz is one of the very few countries in the world to use this crap, inefficient system.
JT
2. The ignorant pig (only one) in SY tower/ground who gets his rocks off in belittling flight crew when assistance is asked or it does'nt go his way.
3. PRM approaches into YSSY. It must cost airlines tens of thousands, if not millions a year to operate into YSSY during the mornings when this system is in operation. Although, I appreciate this is not the fault of individual ATCers as it is more an ASA issue. I understand that Oz is one of the very few countries in the world to use this crap, inefficient system.
JT
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Re: Prm
Sydney has close spaced runways which operate in mixed mode (as opposed to dedicated mode). This is a highly efficient system and one that others are moving too. The flaw in Sydney is that not all aircraft are allowed to use the short runway and due to the constraints in spacing the approach paths are not independent.
This requires a number of odd procedures to allow independent approaches IVA's in VMC allow the airport to accept at about 50/hour (should be more but as we know there is a cap). This falls to 34 / hour in IMC and can be lower.
From an ATC point of view we would like you to report Visual when you are VMC and in addition to advise when the runway is in sight ( AIP refers ). The ammount of time ATC spend extracting visual calls is a joke.
In IMC we use PRM to increase the acceptance rate in IMC to 42 (16//) 44 (34//). The penalty from the pilots point is the PRM circuits but at the moment we are stuck with it but as you can see the savings for the airlines are massive.
As an aside last week 16 IMC with no PRM acceptance rate CTMS at 34 resulted in airborne holding of 30 minutes. Due to the number of acft that can't accept the short runway in the morning peak.
There are no composite VMC / PRM procedures (probably should be). But to stop PRM and commence IVA's requires a certainty of visual reports.
Annecdotaly we have stories of "I didn't report vis. because I wanted an instrument approach" etc. etc.
This requires a number of odd procedures to allow independent approaches IVA's in VMC allow the airport to accept at about 50/hour (should be more but as we know there is a cap). This falls to 34 / hour in IMC and can be lower.
From an ATC point of view we would like you to report Visual when you are VMC and in addition to advise when the runway is in sight ( AIP refers ). The ammount of time ATC spend extracting visual calls is a joke.
In IMC we use PRM to increase the acceptance rate in IMC to 42 (16//) 44 (34//). The penalty from the pilots point is the PRM circuits but at the moment we are stuck with it but as you can see the savings for the airlines are massive.
As an aside last week 16 IMC with no PRM acceptance rate CTMS at 34 resulted in airborne holding of 30 minutes. Due to the number of acft that can't accept the short runway in the morning peak.
There are no composite VMC / PRM procedures (probably should be). But to stop PRM and commence IVA's requires a certainty of visual reports.
Annecdotaly we have stories of "I didn't report vis. because I wanted an instrument approach" etc. etc.
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What does ATC do that 'irks' you?
Hello everyone,
I posted a new thread on the ATC forum asking air traffic controllers to list the things that pilots do that makes their blood boil.
The reason is that I am a CRM facilitator and was wanting to gather information to pass onto fellow aviators to aid in understanding our relative roles.
There was some great stuff there - check out the thread on the ATC forum called "What do pilots do that irk you".
Then one of them suggested that they could learn from pilots as well and invited me to start a thread... so I did so on the D and G Reporting Points forum... but I thought the GA sector has a lot of stories as well. (There's similar threads on the Rotorhead forum and one for the Engineers to vent about pilots on the Engineer's forum).
So feel free to write your gripes here... and hopefully we can all learn, adjust the way we do things... and make all our lives easier and flying more efficient.
I'll get the ball rolling...
The scene is Townsville airport. I am captain of a Chinook helicopter and we taxi out to taxiway bravo where we are abeam the threshold of the main runway and with a clear view of the approaches to it and the second runway. There is no visible traffic and no radio traffic either. The airspace is quiet. We are keen to depart for we have to make a specific timing. It's a local flight to within 10 miles of the CTR, so coordination with Approach should not be necessary.
Us: "Townsville Tower, Chinook One Zero Four, Ready, Taxiway Bravo, departure to the east."
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Hold."
No reason why... which is OK... It's their perogative... but we have a time-on-target and every second is precious so we get a little frustrated.
The delay goes on...
Us: "Townsville tower, can you give us the expected delay?"
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Stand by. Will call you when you are cleared for departure."
Now we're frustrated... and pissed off!
Whilst an explanation is not necessary, it certainly is a nice to have.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... but I've learnt to breathe deeply and go to my happy place.
I posted a new thread on the ATC forum asking air traffic controllers to list the things that pilots do that makes their blood boil.
The reason is that I am a CRM facilitator and was wanting to gather information to pass onto fellow aviators to aid in understanding our relative roles.
There was some great stuff there - check out the thread on the ATC forum called "What do pilots do that irk you".
Then one of them suggested that they could learn from pilots as well and invited me to start a thread... so I did so on the D and G Reporting Points forum... but I thought the GA sector has a lot of stories as well. (There's similar threads on the Rotorhead forum and one for the Engineers to vent about pilots on the Engineer's forum).
So feel free to write your gripes here... and hopefully we can all learn, adjust the way we do things... and make all our lives easier and flying more efficient.
I'll get the ball rolling...
The scene is Townsville airport. I am captain of a Chinook helicopter and we taxi out to taxiway bravo where we are abeam the threshold of the main runway and with a clear view of the approaches to it and the second runway. There is no visible traffic and no radio traffic either. The airspace is quiet. We are keen to depart for we have to make a specific timing. It's a local flight to within 10 miles of the CTR, so coordination with Approach should not be necessary.
Us: "Townsville Tower, Chinook One Zero Four, Ready, Taxiway Bravo, departure to the east."
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Hold."
No reason why... which is OK... It's their perogative... but we have a time-on-target and every second is precious so we get a little frustrated.
The delay goes on...
Us: "Townsville tower, can you give us the expected delay?"
Response: "Chinook One Zero Four, Stand by. Will call you when you are cleared for departure."
Now we're frustrated... and pissed off!
Whilst an explanation is not necessary, it certainly is a nice to have.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth... but I've learnt to breathe deeply and go to my happy place.
Last edited by ConwayB; 4th Feb 2007 at 00:17. Reason: Typo errors
Join Date: Feb 2001
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In General
Assign changes in the arrival speed, including cancelation of restrictions, for sequencing or any other reason after top of descent. It is not unmanageable but just plain inefficient.
ADL
Requesting a readback of the taxiway to enter the apron by. I believe it is in excess of AIP readback requirements. If ATC think it should be read back to ensure the inbound and outbound a/c don't conflict then can a local procedure be published to save on R/T traffic?
SYD
Assigning RWY 07/25 when there is a 15-20 knot southerly blowing and then holding a/c because of delays due to single RWY ops.
I know that they are just doing the bidding of the politicians via the LTOP but it still irks me.
By the way, in the above scenario, if one was to require RWY 16 (L/R) what would be the consequences in the ATC system? Does AsA have a reporting system that captures such instances that gets back to the operators?
Assign changes in the arrival speed, including cancelation of restrictions, for sequencing or any other reason after top of descent. It is not unmanageable but just plain inefficient.
ADL
Requesting a readback of the taxiway to enter the apron by. I believe it is in excess of AIP readback requirements. If ATC think it should be read back to ensure the inbound and outbound a/c don't conflict then can a local procedure be published to save on R/T traffic?
SYD
Assigning RWY 07/25 when there is a 15-20 knot southerly blowing and then holding a/c because of delays due to single RWY ops.
I know that they are just doing the bidding of the politicians via the LTOP but it still irks me.
By the way, in the above scenario, if one was to require RWY 16 (L/R) what would be the consequences in the ATC system? Does AsA have a reporting system that captures such instances that gets back to the operators?
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One controller, only, who insists that "when ready leave control area on descent" is a mandatory readback. It's not a level assignment therefore it is my interpretation that it is not a readback requirement.
I have heard one (& one only) controller get around this (in the above example) by the following:
"Fuddpucker123, when ready descend to FL190."
"FL190, Fuddpucker123."
"Fudpucker123, left FL350."
"Fudpucker123, leave control area descending, Traffic blah blah blah..."
"Fudpucker123."
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I believe they do this over east. When on a SID out of Perth and told to cancel and maintain a heading due to inbound traffic, a simple instruction such as "we're looking for height not distance" or vice a versa "we're looking for distance not height" would be great. We probably have in excess of 60 knots to play with which we could use at speed ranges of 140kts to 200kts which would make quite a difference to our rate of climb or ground speed depending on what your after. Therefore everyone wins as we'd clear the traffic alot sooner.
Cheers
Cheers