What does ATC do that 'irks' you?

[Cost Index]

Not so much an Irk but an amusement...

From Controller to Pilot in a piston aircraft whilst cruising and a long time away from descent: "request max speed"

Um... He is going max speed!

Q: Can someone please post the reference re: field in sight?

[No Further Requirements]

Cost Index: We'd love to know the max speed of all aircraft we ever speak to, but that's a little far fetched.....different aircraft, different operators, different experience levels, different winds & turbulance - makes it hard to judge!

Also, max speed can also be translated as 'don't slow down too early if possible please.' If you are going flat knacker, keep on doing it (safely of course)!

Leg Man: Regards 2500 not below the steps, are you getting the CTA steps confused with the DME steps? Looking at the sector D DME arrival, you can get to 1320ft at 8DME. I stand to be corrected if I'm barking up the wrong tree. And I agree, somewhere there should be an airwarys clearance issued.

Cheers,

NFR.

[pakeha-boy]

Penalty box

ConwayB..
The "penalty box" is nothing other than a spot,similar to a holding bay,on the Airport where A/C are put ,out of the way to keep the normal flow of traffic moving....

Reasons you get to hibernate in the PB are"
Missed flow times
Late taxi times
No Clearance
No #,s from company through uploading (ACARS)
Centre requests for spacing,and many others

.....and last of all, for w@nk@r pilots who like to give ATC a piece of their peanut minds .....

It like most things in aviation is a managment tool,and for those of us who fly in Major busy Airports worldwide understand fullly,their design and use.....

...that why I have "Brake Release fuel" #,s...PB

Not the Controllers fault

[Duff Man]

Visual

Participating in an IVA at YSSY?

Call "runway [rwy] in sight" if you have/had it in sight and expect to keep it in sight on a normal circuit. That way you can be on a 30deg join onto final and avoid delaying yourself and aircraft on the parallel final, and keep director happy.

Call "visual" if you really can't see the runway but will comply with the rules for "visual" flight mentioned above. You won't get the <30deg cut but could still have traffic next to you on final. Director will have to work a bit harder. Foreign registered and QF 747s at night are treated this way in all cases.

Calling "runway was in sight but behind us" - well, yes of course dummy, it usually is on downwind. Director will cuss!

Call "34R and L in sight" to hint that you're OK to accept last-minute change.

[ConwayB]

Thanks

Pakeha Boy, thanks for the info re PB. I'll use that in my course. Very interesting.

ITCZ's reply reinforces my understanding of the rules. Reporting "Visual" always meant to me to mean the conditions in which I was flying. (As opposed to "in cloud" "VMC on top", "on top of broken" etc.

"Field in Sight" meant that I can see the field and can track to it visually.

I welcome any comments further illuminating or correcting my understanding.

As another aside with regard to ATC personnel understanding the capabilities of helicopters, I have been asked whilst conducting an ILS if I could reduce my speed from 120 knots due to traffic ahead that was slower than anticipated.

"I can go backwards back up the glide slope if you'd like or hover at the check height over the Outer marker," came my cheery reply.

"That won't be necessary", was the response. "Just a 20 knot reduction if possible."

"Wilco"

Obviously, some helicopters will have speed restrictions especially if heavy or if in OEI configuration. And I'm sure he was being considerate in case I needed to be flying at 120 knots for some 'pilot' reason. But it was amusing to hear it.

All in all, the ATC pers I have been involved with and interacted with have been tremendous and go out of their way to assist. (Except that one time when I was a RPPL at YSBK. B*stard!)

[fixa24]

Leg Man;
possibly a reason for the intermediate level was that there was a restriction for your descent, therefore you were being stepped down on top of this aircraft. Say you call @30nm, ATC has traffic @A035, youre given clearance direct (i know, separate argument) an descent to A045 not below steps. you then call @ 10nm, that traffic has cleared but may be other traffic, etc, so you are given A025 not below the steps. How could they possibly know when you call @30nm the levels of the aircraft when you enter the airspace @6nm? They can guess pretty well, but they need to have a proven standard to exist at all times.

quote{Also been told to descent to 2500 not below the steps which is below the LSALT and 25 nm msa}
And thats exactly why you were given not below the steps!

I totally agree. if coming from class G airspace, and have not been cleared to leave and re-enter, then you should recieve a clearance from the tower. If in any doubt, ask!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WynSock]

What irks me?

Was inbound 45mins to run and centre gets on the radio. "Thunderstorm where you're headed, whats your alternate and when are you going there?"

Hello? We have 60 holding for destination as per the TAF, we hadn't considered diverting. But with a diversion, no fuel left for holding.

Anyway, diverted after much prompting then 15 mins later "The weather has cleared a bit, getting in now, no worries"

I wish they would give us the facts, let us concentrate on our job and avoid hassling us on the radio.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Those ATC bastards hey Wynsock! Next time they should say nothing allow you to hold for 60 minutes, weather still doesn't clear, and then what? Or not say anything, allow you to hold till your latest divert time, only for you to ask to divert to your alternate, to find the non-irksome ATC who has left you alone up till now tells you your alternate is a no go as well, either due to weather or no parking space, and you don't have fuel to get to your second alternate. As ATC'ers we will always try and plan ahead and provide a service. That will involve asking for your latest divert time and your alternate. Bottom line is prompting or not, the decision to divert is always up to you as the pilot, we just try and provide you with the best service available. You are the first pilot I have heard complain about it.

[Aerodynamisist]

since you asked

Nothing major for the most part atc are a great help and have helped me out of some dicey spots in the past.

However I do find I get more respect and better service when I'm in a twin compared to private flying in a c152

also I have been annoyed in the past at unfamiliar airports when asking for taxi guidance and not getting it, yes I carry an ersa but taxiing a taildrager at an unfamiliar aerodrome while trying to read is tricky.
I also got held at low level at marochy once and told "you can climb outside the steps" I monitored the frequency for some time after wards and there was very little traffic none of it conflicting, I chalked it up to a sheer laziness on the controllers part just wanting to get me out of his airspace, if I ask for a level and it's clear of traffic I expect to get it or a plausible reason why I can't have it.

[Spaghetti Monster]

OK, seeing as visual approaches are coming in for a bit of discussion can I add this:
We know that in YSSY, when spacing is predicated on independent visual approaches once established on final, it can really make ATC's life a misery when we won't call visual.

But - please appreciate that we all read AIP and understand what 'visual' means in the context of a visual approach. Well most of us do.

Please appreciate that the sightline from the top of the tower to us on final, is quite different to the sightline from us to the 34R threshold, and we might not be as visual as you think we are...

Please appreciate that while you might be able to clearly see our 34-million-candlepower landing lights from 10 miles away, various combinations of haze, mist, sun, and low cloud may mean that we're not as visual as we think we are...

Please appreciate that we may be on promotional training or a route check, and if we call 'visual', get cleared for a visual approach, and then fly into cloud, bad things will probably happen to us...

And finally, please appreciate that at the end of a long day when we're heading down final with a gusty crosswind and we can see that we're probably going to fly into a thin bank of low cloud which is moving across the approach path at 1000', we can really do without a patronising little lecture on what 'visual' means!

Other than that I reckon ATC do a much better job than we give them credit for, and the main thing that irks me is that when it comes to disagreements, they're more often than not right while we're wrong.

[F/O Bloggs]

GAS CHAMBER,

Sorry, am away on a trip so couldnt reply straight away.

I don't know what type of FMS aircraft you have flown, so I apologise if I am telling you stuff you know. I have flown the 146 and it is a different mode of flying when flying the later generation managed approach jets. Yes you can always go into manual modes, or even disconnect, but that is not the philosophy of how are supposed to fly these days. When ATC give you a runway change or cct entry change at low level, the box has a lot of info about missed-app, auto throttle control for speed control, descent profiles, nav aids etc, so it is more than just a heading change thing.

I am not saying it is undoable, but rather pointing out "What Irks me" as per this thread. The thing i was saying is, let us know early if major changes are going to occur to the approach, not when you are entering the circuit area.

[Defenestrator]

Townsville ATC can be bloody painfull to say the least, but can also be very good. Does my head in some times with the delays experienced when inbound. Friends in the RAAF tell me that it's a "training" field for new ATCers and I'm good with that. What gets up my nose though is that at times it seems no-one is looking over the shoulder of the newbies. Give them more than 3 aircraft and it's a deadset loss. Drives me mad. I've been asked for speed reductions at 100 miles out (which have been refused) and offered alternatives to the radar controller which have been accepted and no delays experienced by anyone. Again, if the lads/lasses are cutting their teeth with the traffic flow someone should be there to advise accordingly. Delays, aka inefficiency, cost money to the operator be it GA or the airlines.
On the other hand, when conducting training exercises, which are always advised by phone, they are absolutely awesome. Cannot be more professional and helpful. They are ALWAYS very considerate of last minute changes to the program and facilitate ALWAYS. Can't fault them. In saying that I try to stay aware of the commercial ops at the time so as not to delay any departures/arrivals with last minute requests.
Spose all I'm saying is that there is room for improvement WRT commercial ops. Noted that the military guys are equally frustrated.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Spaghetti Monster

Almost all of these issues here are a lack of understanding of each others jobs - 50:50 split.

For example, Approach don't give a hoot if the Tower can see you. Tower are not involved in setting you up on the approach - it is the Approach controller who is sitting in a room bereft of a view.

Reading this thread one can see annoyance at not getting track shortening and in the next breath being taken off profile. Bad things happen to controllers when track shortening goes bad. Do it a couple of times and expect to be shown the door. Controllers are told that airlines do not want track shortening - so if you think that is crap why not bring it up with your chief pilot?

We understand that you want to let the plane fly itself on a Runway linked STAR from TD without being touched - and we like doing that too. But, hey, in the 20-25 minutes from TD to TCHD a lot of things can change - weather, missed approaches, runway changes, Medical priority traffic, and the most common one - inconsistent descent profiles from the aircraft in front of you backing the whole thing up. We don't know which ECON Descent you have chosen today, or what your LDG WT is. These are the variables we deal with every minute - and we work it out for 10-15 aircraft at a time - not just the one you are flying. It is not always pretty, but we are working to the same aim - safely maximising the limited strips of concrete left in Australia.

Sometimes we get it wrong - sorry - $hit happens sometimes. I would hazard a guess that you will remember the times you get royally screwed a lot more than the times you get untouched or maybe have to lose or gain a minute in the cruise. And my bet is that more often than not you get a clear run - you just don't remember the smooth stuff!

We can do stuff better - and so can the crews - the waffling on the frequencies seems to have reduced a bit lately. Departure calls are not the time to be requesting high-speed climb and DCT to somewhere because 'we are running behind schedule'. A tip: ATC will endeavour to get you where you are going as quickly as possible regardless of whether your company publishes an impossible schedule / block time that you inevitably fail to meet as the day progresses. No need to ask, because there is nothing in the AIP to afford you priority anyway.

[go around 121]

atc service

Conway B. Just reference your initial post, unfortunately TWR does not own any airspace and therefore MUST coordinated all moves before launching you. As you sit in your cockpit you may not be aware of the BIG PICTURE, separation, sequencing, segregation etc. As a HEAVY you also create wake turb. If you had a ROLL TIME then advise the ATCers and I am sure they will endeavour to make it happen.

Granted that they reply to your query on delay sounds a little harsh.

As a local squadron, perhapse you should just drive across the airfield and have a talk to them?

[DirtyPierre]

Aerodynamisist,

On behalf of all controllers that work "regional airspace", I apologise for any delays bestowed upon thee. But to give you a reason for your delay;

- a C152 or other bugsmasher stooging along the CTA steps at a place like MC or CH or TW, etc is one of the biggest pains in the controllers ar$e if he has to get away jet or high performance turbos from the airfield. You are in the way for a long time, and stay in the way for a long time.

- although you can't hear anything on the radio, does this mean the controller is not busy? NO! Controllers talk on intercoms, telephones as well as radios. The reason for your delay could very well be that the controller had an emergency or an equipment failure that reduced the traffic/workload that he/she could handle. You won't know about this by listening on the radio.

- a VFR aircraft that has no plan in the system creates increased workload for a controller when they request a clearance. It means the controller has to enter the details manually into the system. This takes the controller away from their primary task eg. separation, coordination, IFER, sequencing, etc. Having a plan in the system helps a long way into getting a clearance into CTA. The controller may also not have time to give a long winded reason for the denial of clearance.

Hope this helps with your future flying.

[Spaghetti Monster]

Thanks for the reply ****su - I don't really have much of a problem with most of the issues you mention, and don't really think we get royally screwed all that much without good reason either. Most of my post just stemmed from a recent bit of aggro we copped in YSSY which was somewhat out of order (but also thankfully quite out of character).

Interesting to hear that 'Controllers are told that airlines do not want track shortening' - I certainly wasn't aware of that and find it hard to believe, particularly with all the pressure on us to save fuel.

Just a question on things we do which irk ATC - there seems to be quite a trend to read back just about everything the controller says, sometimes to a ridiculous degree. (Presumably this is just because people aren't quite sure of the readback requirements and want to make sure all the bases are covered.) For example, my understanding is that we're required to read back runways, holding points etc, but not something like 'taxy via L, B and B2' - yet 80% of pilots seem to read back the whole lot. Now is this a pain in the @rse for you guys, or are you quite happy and reassured to have everything read back?

[Binoculars]

All good stuff from both sides of the story. As an old dinosaur about to exit the door of ATC, I'll just suggest a couple of reasons why the question has to be asked at all.

1. A pilot's view of a good controller is one who gets him off the runway in the shortest possible time and gives him direct tracking to wherever he wants to go. Unfortunately our employer does not share this view, and we operate under a set of standards, any broaching of which means trouble for us.

2. Pilots tend to think they have the total picture based purely on what they can hear on the radio. This is almost never the case. Similarly, we have no clue about any abnormal happpenings in the cockpit or, in a lot of cases, the detailed knowledge of aircraft performance limitations required to know why just asking for something we think might help our aim in making it all work is utterly impractical from the pilot's pov. Ideally we would all know that, but we don't. Perhaps that is something the powers that be could take note of.

and finally, the overwhelming cause of all the problems, as already alluded to;

3. Flow control is a VERY imprecise art. The difference between a beautifully flowed sequence and a total cockup backing way up the line is less than thirty seconds, and I'm afraid calculations aren't that accurate from 60 miles. When I see the different profile speeds adopted by same type aircraft on the same approach I'm often amazed just how well the system does work.

Everyone on both sides can relate what they perceive as horror stories where the tendency is to blame incompetence on the other side. Last year I asked a 737 to reduce speed when he called me inbound from the south for a left circuit; I told him he would be following a Dash 8 who was about six miles further from the field but tracking straight in from the north. This should have been a routine sequence, but the 737 did not reduce speed at all, entered downwind doing 270kt GS and complained bitterly about having to go to 8 miles on downwind. Duh. No doubt he spread the story of the incompetent ATC at Mackay to anybody who would listen.

Bear in mind that decisions are made about landing order well ahead of the actual time and once those decisions are made, and it becomes apparent that it ain't gonna work, somebody, perhaps more than one, will be royally stuffed around through no fault of their own. Until the computer boffins come up with a flow control system that really works that will continue to be the case. We KNOW how painful it is to be asked for max speed followed by a change of mind, and it's always embarrassing to have to do it.

We often hear what the American controllers manage with far greater workloads, but without the rider that you had better do exactly as you are told to do over there or you're gonna get yelled at big time. "HEY YOU! Who told you you could lose ten knots sonny Jim?" The situation I quoted earlier wouldn't be allowed to happen over there.

Legman, I suggest that the best thing you can do is come up and see us in the tower to get an appreciation of how we have to do things and how the combination of class G airspace to six miles and a high descent profile on the DME steps leads to complications. All you have to do is ask and we'll get the safety officer to drop you to the door. You will walk away knowing more than when you walked in.

All in all though I think this has been an excellent thread with nowhere near the ranting I was fearing when I read the topic! Keep it up, none of us ever stops learning.



And Spaghetti Monster, the answer is that everything to do with the readback system is a pain in the arse for everybody concerned. I'm getting readbacks of time checks fer chrissakes!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Conversation with TL ATC a few years ago!

TL APP - XXX turn right heading 270 for separation from opposite direction traffic
XXX - Ah, confirm you want me to turn right into the side of that hill over there?

(Pregnant pause)

TL APP (different voice) - XXX maintain present heading, confirm 180
XXX - heading 180
TL APP - YYY turn right heading 090

Was visual at the time. If in IMC (pre moving map displays and terrain aviodance) I would have made the turn. Hopefully the "other voice" would have saved me!!

FTDC

[Defenestrator]

And Pilot Error
Actual exchanges between pilots and control towers
Tower: "Delta 351, you have traffic at 10 o'clock, 6 miles!"
Delta 351: "Give us another hint! We have digital watches!"
************************************************************ ************
Tower: "TWA 2341, for noise abatement turn right 45 Degrees."
TWA 2341: "Center, we are at 35,000 feet.
How much noise can we make up here?"
Tower: "Sir, have you ever heard the noise a 747 makes when it hits a 727?"
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
From an unknown aircraft waiting in a very long takeoff queue:
"I'm f...ing bored!"
Ground Traffic Control:
"Last aircraft transmitting, identify yourself immediately! "
Unknown aircraft: "I said I was f...ing bored, not f...ing stupid!"
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
O'Hare Approach Control to a 747: "United 329 heavy, your traffic is a
Fokker, one o'clock, three miles, Eastbound."
United 329: "Approach, I've always wanted to say this..
I've got the little Fokker in sight."
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
A student became lost during a solo cross-country flight. While attempting to locate the aircraft on radar, ATC asked, "What was your last known position?"
Student: "When I was number one for takeoff."
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
A DC-10 had come in a little hot and thus had an exceedingly long roll
out after touching down.
San Jose Tower Noted: "American 751, make a hard right turn at the end
of the runway, if you are able.
If you are not able, take the Guadeloupe exit off Highway 101, make a
right at the lights and return to the airport."
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
A Pan Am 727 flight, waiting for start clearance in Munich , overheard
the following:
Lufthansa (in German):
" Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
Ground (in English):
"If you want an answer you must speak in English."
Lufthansa (in English):
"I am a German, flying a German airplane, in Germany .
Why must I speak English?"
Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent):
"Because you lost the bloody war!"
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
Tower: "Eastern 702, cleared for takeoff, contact Departure on frequency 124.7"
Eastern 702: "Tower, Eastern 702 switching to Departure.
By the way,after we lifted off we saw some kind of dead animal on the far end of the runway."
Tower: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff behind Eastern 702, contact Departure on frequency 124.7.
Did you copy that report from Eastern 702?"
BR Continental 635: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff, roger;
and yes, we copied Eastern...we've already notified our caterers."
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
One day the pilot of a Cherokee 180 was told by the tower to hold
short of the active runway while a DC-8 landed. The DC-8 landed, rolled out, turned around, and taxied back past the Cherokee.
Some quick-witted comedian in the DC-8 crew got on the radio and said,
"What a cute little plane. Did you make it all by yourself?"
The Cherokee pilot, not about to let the insult go by, came back with
a real zinger:
"I made it out of DC-8 parts. Another landing like yours and I'll have enough parts for another one."
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it
was with some amusement that we (a Pan Am 747) listened to the following exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747, call sign Speedbird 206 .
Speedbird 206: " Frankfurt , Speedbird 206! clear of active runway."
Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."
The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"
Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."
G round (with quite arrogant impatience):
"Speedbird 206, have you not been to Frankfurt before?"
Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944, but it was dark, - And I didn't land."
************ ********* ********* ********* ********* *********
While taxiing at London 's Gatwick Airport , the crew of a US Air
flight departing for Ft. Lauderdale made a wrong turn and came nose to nose with a United 727. An irate female ground controller lashed out at the US Air crew, screaming:
"US Air 2771, where the hell are you going? I told you to turn right onto
Charlie taxiway! You turned right on Delta! Stop right there. I know
it's difficult for you to tell the difference between C and D, but get it right!"
Continuing her rage to the embarrassed crew, she was now shouting
hysterically: "God! Now you've screwed everything up! It'll take forever to
sort this out! You stay right there and don't move till I tell you to!
You can expect progressive taxi instructions in about half an hour, and I
want you to go exactly where I tell you, when I tell you, and how I tell you! You got that, US Air 2771?"
"Yes, ma'am," the humbled crew responded.
Naturally, the ground control communications frequency fell terribly
silent after the verbal bashing of US Air 2771. Nobody wanted to chance
engaging the irate ground controller in her current state of mind. Tension in every cockpit out around Gatwick was definitely running high. Just then an unknown pilot broke the silence and keyed his microphone, asking: "Wasn't I married to you once?"
Just for fun.....

[Binoculars]

Anyone heard the one about the tech log entries?