psychometric and aptitude tests

[hoopdreams]

Do all airlines have them for recruitment, i.e VB? If so, would all pilots no matter how experienced have to sit through them?

[cabin secure]

Any airline that requires psychometric testing as part of its interviewing process requires ALL candidates to sit through them.
There are a few courses around designed for specific airlines, to prep for your psychs. PM me if you would like details.
To the best of my knowledge Virgin did away with theirs some time ago.
Cheers.

[hoopdreams]

thanks cabin secure. I guess these sort of things have never really been my strong point, and I would avoid them if I could. However, if it's absolutely necesary I may look into external help. But I've got a long way to go yet!
Good to hear VB doesn't have them. I guess these tests are just another short listing mechanism. Applicant a has the pretty much the same experience as applicant b, which one do we choose? Throw test at them.

cheers

[glekichi]

Maybe true in oz but not for ALL airlines. Cadets may be required to take psychometric testing to ensure that they are at least likely to be capable of succeeding in the industry, where experienced captains etc. have already proven this and may be accepted based on just this experience and an interview/sim check.

[hoopdreams]

If only airline Ops management would discover this simple truth then I see some sound people finding the job they deserve.

But a major oz airline, VIrgin Blue, don't have them right?

[podbreak]

Originally Posted by Blue-Footed Boobie

Pysche tests are a waste of time.

If only airline Ops management would discover this simple truth then I see some sound people finding the job they deserve.

Psych tests are not designed to only eliminate psychopaths. I would suggest your perception of these HR departments is narrow and somewhat ignorant. Psych tests are one of the most effective ways of drawing a picture of a candidate's persona, motivation and work ethic. The airline can then establish a certain culture from day one by picking the personalities they want (to a certain degree, obviously). No system is perfect, the pysch tests are pretty damn effective though.

Aviation is the only industry i've heard this business of 'deserving' a job being thrown around so much.

[BPA]

In the past Virgin Blue never had psychometric testing or a sim check, but that has changed. Psychometric testing and a sim check are now a part of their invterview process and have been since Nov 2006.

[haughtney1]

Psych tests are not designed to only eliminate psychopaths. I would suggest your perception of these HR departments is narrow and somewhat ignorant. Psych tests are one of the most effective ways of drawing a picture of a candidate's persona, motivation and work ethic. The airline can then establish a certain culture from day one by picking the personalities they want (to a certain degree, obviously). No system is perfect, the pysch tests are pretty damn effective though.

It takes VERY little effort and research to debunk and fool even the most involved Psych test.
It is far far more effective to have a trained interviewer, who is able through a combination of technique and experience to extract (yes extract) the key motivations and attitudes from a candidate.
In many cases airline HR departments are a self perpetuating philosophy, on the one hand justifying their existance by filtering "unsuitable" candiates, and on the other hand making increasing demands on those who apply for positions by employing ever more eloborate and pointless exercises which only "prove" how many "unsuitable" candidates actually exist out there

[hoopdreams]

Originally Posted by haughtney1

In many cases airline HR departments are a self perpetuating philosophy, on the one hand justifying their existance by filtering "unsuitable" candiates, and on the other hand making increasing demands on those who apply for positions by employing ever more eloborate and pointless exercises which only "prove" how many "unsuitable" candidates actually exist out there

Totally agree with the above statement. I remember someone once saying, "hire them for their attitude, train them for their skills", as oppose to the other way around. I'm skeptical that a pych test could be so accurate in determining the suitability of pilots, given the diverse range of experiences and backgrounds that people come from.

[pakeha-boy]

Quote.......Psych tests are not designed to only eliminate psychopaths...

Podbreak.....your wrong....I fooled them all

B F Boobie...agree with you....have been through many,after a while you figure the "game" out and give them the answers they want to hear....there is a pattern and its really not that difficult.....

Q....how many times a day do you go to the toilet....

A.......2-3
15-25
45-65
....This is tough one,but these are the types of questions they give you.....gives a definite insight as to whether your normal or not

[podbreak]

hautney and hoopdreams-

Psych tests are rarely used as a sole means of hiring. If they were, yes they would have gaping loop holes. Interviews are essential, but can also be manipulated. Think of the process as layered. One has to show consistency throughout, those who manipulate either test will be eliminated because of their inconsistant profile. As for tests being developed to find ways of eliminating candidates, well where I work that is rubbish. You can be very weak in many areas without being eliminated. Candidates are 'profiled' if you will, and this information is used to asses the legitimacy of their presented character in the interview. Hoopdreams you are correct about hiring for attitude not skill, look as far as the sim ride, where the key to success is improvement, not skill. I think you will find that attitude is the hiring policy of at least one major Australian airline.

[Sunfish]

This stuff was done to death about thirty years ago.

First of all, some of the "personality inventory" tools were originally designed to diagnose sick people - ie: For use by people presenting at a hospital with some form of mental condition. Thats why you see questions in them like "I believe life is hopeless and I have no control over what happens to me." (Answer scale from "Agree strongly" to "disagree strongly").

Then there are the persosnlaity type definers like the Myers Briggs Tests that rank you as introvert/extrovert - feeling justifying, etc etc. You can fool these tests easily if you know what the airline is looking for (Hint - they are not looking for brooding introverts with "gut feel" perceptive thinking skills.

Then there are all the proprietary tests designed to provide team players etc. etc. and weed out "bad" personalities. You can fool those too - you get taught it at MBa school but its not that hard.

Some of these test vendors also include trick questions to produce "Lie scores" so that in theory you can pick whop is lieing in the test. Only trouble is that a high lie score actually shows great motivation for wanting to do the job.

The U.S. Supreme Court went through all this a long time ago when "test results" were cited as the reason for racial bias in hiring and promotion decisions. The tests lost.

Aptitude tests - well that is a very different matter.

[Sunfish]

This stuff was done to death about thirty years ago. Just do the tests, be yourself, if the tests reveal you are an accident waiting to happen then thank your lucky stars that you aren't working for people who believe this drivel.

First of all, some of the "personality inventory" tools were originally designed to diagnose sick people - ie: For use by people presenting at a hospital with some form of mental condition. Thats why you see questions in them like "I believe life is hopeless and I have no control over what happens to me." (Answer scale from "Agree strongly" to "disagree strongly"). These tests provide no useful data in healthy people.

Then there are the personality type definers like the Myers Briggs Tests that rank you as introvert/extrovert - feeling justifying, etc etc. You can fool these tests easily if you know what the airline is looking for (Hint - they are not looking for brooding introverts with "gut feel" perceptive thinking
skills. Pilots are going to show up with extroversion, a penchant for analytic thinking and fast decionmaking, uncomfortable with dualities.

Then there are all the proprietary tests designed to provide team players etc. etc. and weed out "bad" personalities. You can fool those too - you get taught it at MBA school, its not that hard.

The potentially dangerous pilots - narcissists, will sweep an interviewer off his(her) feet as well as pass any personality test with flying colors. I haven't seen it in aviation but I've seen it in business - the "born super manager" who knows all the jargon but destroys the company. Ernest K Gann refers to a pilot like this in "Fate is the Hunter".

Some of these test vendors also include trick questions to produce "Lie scores" so that in theory you can pick whop is lieing in the test. Only trouble is that a high lie score actually shows great motivation for wanting to do the job.

The U.S. Supreme Court went through all this a long time ago when "test results" were cited as the reason for racial bias in hiring and promotion decisions. The tests lost.

Aptitude tests - well that is a very different matter. They are relevent.


Also be aware that the axis of the aptitude test is occassionally not what it says it is.The classic in the Army at officer cadet courses is to be given a squad of soldiers and a pile of timber and being told to build a bridge within a set time limit. Needless to say, the "squad" have been told to stuff it up anyway and everyway possible. One simply sits back with the stopwatch prominently extended and watches the frustration build. It's great fun to do it when the candidate hasn't slept for 24 hours. The resulting explosion has terminated more than one career.

[deckchair]

'Psych tests are one of the most effective ways of drawing a picture of a candidate's persona..'

What i don't understand is that the Psych test seems to be set up to test the traits that are a constant in a person's make up. This being the case,
why does a psych test have a shelf life at Qantas of 2 years before you are told to cough up $ to re-sit it? If the theory is based on exposing the type of person you really are, such traits never change do they? If they can be argued to be changeable over time then why test at all if at time of recruitment you profile ok but within a year you become an axxxhole?

[podbreak]

Deckchair;

Those who have undesireable personality traits are told they needn't bother apply again. Those who are told they can apply again 2 years later are those who have been 'uncompetitive'. That is, they do not necessarily have undeseriable personality traits, they are however not what the airline wants at that time, or in some cases there are candidates more 'suitable' to fill the quota.

[pakeha-boy]

Podbreak....based upon your comments,I would be interested to hear whether you personally design or administer this type of testing.....if so,where do you obtain your info.....if not,you seem to know the whys and hows of this testing.......

I would agree with the reasons and the science behind this type of testing and as Ive said,have taken a few....always felt like a complete idiot after doing one but never bothered........

......my own test is that after taking one of these,Ive always felt like,heading to the nearest pub and pounding many beers.........is this odd.?...PB

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Podbreak,

If you watched SkyNews and they said alien Green life-forms had been found in the vast expanse of the Aussie outback would you believe it?

The human personality is too complex to quantify and it dosen't take much to fool a Psyche test, asnwering the questions to match an ideal profile. Besides some of the questions are laughable.

So don't believe it when someone tells you that pysche testing is the dogs bollocks. It's a way to make the Ph.D graduate some money after years of poverty at University.

Blue-Foot

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

I agree with you bfb, my missus is a psych and makes a heap of money doing these tests for a range of employers. Helps with the mortgage and amuses me with the results. She would be the first to tell you they are at best a Guide to an individual, at worst a complete waste of time. In her early days she has experimented on me with these things to try manipulate results and see if she is with a madman. There was a consistancy with them even with my studied tweaking efforts.

I remember a job where we had to do a heap of mil spec tests designed by the forensic psych institute, a big player in the government market. A few people who I thought were a bit on the crazy side got through and a couple of top blokes who would have been good didn't. The kicker was the full day of "team building exersizes" with 3 psych's watching, taking notes. This did weed out the suspect crazies and we were left with a number of people who fit the bill.

I think if companies are using them as a primary employment tool they are losing some good people and maybe picking up the odd switched on sociopath. Best to use people with people and a good interview.

[podbreak]

PB, if I told you i'd have to...

BFB, i've done my fair share of research on said subject and human behaviour as it were. It is true that we are more complex than a psych test would allow us to think. However, I can safely say, used in the correct way they are effective. As I stated above that includes the use of personal screening (interview). Though you assume you can 'fool' the process, I doubt that you are infact doing so. Candidates who have had interview and psych test coaching have obvious gives. It would surprise many just how obvious their techniques are, and thats not to suggest some coaching is bad. Considering the motivation questionaire, alot about ones persona can be drawn through patterns. Trying to fool this draws 'spikes'. You cannot answer what you think the airline wants, it will almost certainly catch you out. If you take the test on face value, sure, you could assume you are 'fooling' it. Above taken into consideration, I cannot speak for other many airlines who do infact have shonky questionaires they label 'psych' tests, which consist of little more than an IQ style test with some aviation questions whacked on.

Unless you are involved in the design of these tests, or the day to day use of them, I think its a little rich to completely rubbish them and their existence.

[haughtney1]

Psych tests are rarely used as a sole means of hiring. If they were, yes they would have gaping loop holes. Interviews are essential, but can also be manipulated. Think of the process as layered. One has to show consistency throughout, those who manipulate either test will be eliminated because of their inconsistent profile.

I would argue that the personal interview is very very difficult to manipulate, if conducted by a skilled interviewer, the Psych test on the other hand is a means to an end. It is designed to categorize individual, put them into profile boxes to allow them to assessed/scored, and then deemed suitable or unsuitable.
The tests are also a product of a system that gives an organization a chance to avoid discrimination or bias allegations.
Psych tests continue to be a pointless part of aircrew recruitment......just ask the rest of the world outside Oz. (and I have BTW e.g BA, CX, EK, EY...plus a few more besides)
The BA process concentrates on competency based motor skills, and a series of 2 on 1 interviews, they discarded psych tests after 10 years, purely on the basis that they served no useful recruitment purpose.

Hoopdreams you are correct about hiring for attitude not skill, look as far as the sim ride, where the key to success is improvement, not skill. I think you will find that attitude is the hiring policy of at least one major Australian airline.

In many cases this is the second part of a two day process.....