Flaps question for you cessna fanatics
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Flaps question for you cessna fanatics
With the available expertise on older models cessnas browsing these D&G threads I wonder if anyone can help me out with this flap question.
I was flying an older model C210 the other week. Not sure exactly which year model actually but she's fairly ancient. Anyway, I was recently on short finals to land at a bush airstrip, full flaps, pretty gusty, nicely on speed when, with much noise, the flaps slammed back up to full retraction as if they had simply been overloaded. Full extension to full retraction was in less than a second. Bang!
I flew a go around, dropped the flaps again and flew another approach, no worries. Flaps seeemd to work fine ever since. Nothing to be found in the flight manual about an overload relief on the flaps system etc etc etc.
So. What's the theory on that one? Dodgey old plane and a freak flap malfunction or does cessna have a primitive dynamic relief mechanism on their flaps to prevent damage in overspeed etc etc.
I only fly this thing for fun about once every two years so not like I am in it every day and totally familiar with all her quirks.
Any theories?
I was flying an older model C210 the other week. Not sure exactly which year model actually but she's fairly ancient. Anyway, I was recently on short finals to land at a bush airstrip, full flaps, pretty gusty, nicely on speed when, with much noise, the flaps slammed back up to full retraction as if they had simply been overloaded. Full extension to full retraction was in less than a second. Bang!
I flew a go around, dropped the flaps again and flew another approach, no worries. Flaps seeemd to work fine ever since. Nothing to be found in the flight manual about an overload relief on the flaps system etc etc etc.
So. What's the theory on that one? Dodgey old plane and a freak flap malfunction or does cessna have a primitive dynamic relief mechanism on their flaps to prevent damage in overspeed etc etc.
I only fly this thing for fun about once every two years so not like I am in it every day and totally familiar with all her quirks.
Any theories?
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Sorry Victor 2 i can't help with an answer, but the exact same thing happened to my housemate just last week. In an ANCIENT c182, 1964 model which looks like it's had a decidedly hard life, meatbomber.
On finals, flaps out to about 30 and uncommanded up they went, she didn't make it sound a violent as your incident, just a quicker than normal retraction.
She made a flapless landing. Flew it flapless (figured just leave them alone its going in for mx soon anyway) for 4-5 hours and it's now away for a 100hrly so i may have an answer for you when it comes back.
Anybody else out there come across this? Known problem?
On finals, flaps out to about 30 and uncommanded up they went, she didn't make it sound a violent as your incident, just a quicker than normal retraction.
She made a flapless landing. Flew it flapless (figured just leave them alone its going in for mx soon anyway) for 4-5 hours and it's now away for a 100hrly so i may have an answer for you when it comes back.
Anybody else out there come across this? Known problem?
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gee this is gonna really get the experts humming!!! 
I would expect a moderate novel to appear here shortly on all topics related and not.
(Just windin ya up before yous all get too upset).
Better talk to the maint. chappie before someone else flys her cos she's stuffed (and dangerous!)
I would expect a moderate novel to appear here shortly on all topics related and not.(Just windin ya up before yous all get too upset).
Better talk to the maint. chappie before someone else flys her cos she's stuffed (and dangerous!)
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Have never seen or heard of this occurring in any Cessna single.
My C210 experience only goes back to a 1975 model, but I have flown a few older 182s and 172.
Don't think I have seen a hydraulic flap Cessna single. Lever operated and electric only.
R
My C210 experience only goes back to a 1975 model, but I have flown a few older 182s and 172.
Don't think I have seen a hydraulic flap Cessna single. Lever operated and electric only.
R
victor two
About 12 years ago I had a flap failure on short final in a C152 causing asymmetric flap instantly and a loud bang as it snapped up. Frightened the s**t out of me as we rolled to almost 90 deg at 300 ft before I could raise the other flap and counter the uncommanded roll. I’m glad it happened on that circuit because I was just about to send the student first solo on the next. Cause of the failure was a broken flap cable caused by corrosion at the wing root.
About 12 years ago I had a flap failure on short final in a C152 causing asymmetric flap instantly and a loud bang as it snapped up. Frightened the s**t out of me as we rolled to almost 90 deg at 300 ft before I could raise the other flap and counter the uncommanded roll. I’m glad it happened on that circuit because I was just about to send the student first solo on the next. Cause of the failure was a broken flap cable caused by corrosion at the wing root.
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185 is asking the right questions. The early model 210s (and maybe other cessnas too) have hydraulic actuated flaps. If one has been sitting for a while and not flown, the flaps will start to droop (as do the gear doors). 210s up to and including the K model (1971) have an engine driven hydraulic pump. The L model and all subsequent have an electrically driven pump. I'm not sure what year the flaps went from hydraulic to electric. The 1970K model is an electrical flap system, so it was obviously prior to 1970.
The problem you experienced could also be caused by a dickey flap switch (if its an electrical one, obviously).
I have a friend who had the opposite happen to him in a C414A at night. Doing touch and go's, he selected flap up after touch down and then continued to take off. He quickly noticed that the aircraft wasn't accelerating or climbing but it was too late to close the throttles and land ahead. So he did a left hand turn and landed less than delicately on the cross strip. He doesn't think he got over 200 feet - not enough performance. Fortunately the problem was reproduced on the ground - so no egg on his face.
He did go out in another C414A to try accelerating out of this situation/configuration from different airspeeds at 3000'. Discovered that if the airspeed was above about 110kts when full power was applied the plane would accelerate and climb. Below 110 kts there just wasn't enough power to pull through the drag and accelerate.
So when doing touch and go's now, he confirms that the flap has returned to the takeoff position before committing to a takeoff, but as a general rule of thumb will only do a stop and go, even if it means a backtrack.
The problem you experienced could also be caused by a dickey flap switch (if its an electrical one, obviously).
I have a friend who had the opposite happen to him in a C414A at night. Doing touch and go's, he selected flap up after touch down and then continued to take off. He quickly noticed that the aircraft wasn't accelerating or climbing but it was too late to close the throttles and land ahead. So he did a left hand turn and landed less than delicately on the cross strip. He doesn't think he got over 200 feet - not enough performance. Fortunately the problem was reproduced on the ground - so no egg on his face.
He did go out in another C414A to try accelerating out of this situation/configuration from different airspeeds at 3000'. Discovered that if the airspeed was above about 110kts when full power was applied the plane would accelerate and climb. Below 110 kts there just wasn't enough power to pull through the drag and accelerate.
So when doing touch and go's now, he confirms that the flap has returned to the takeoff position before committing to a takeoff, but as a general rule of thumb will only do a stop and go, even if it means a backtrack.
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I've had a similar thing in a C210, full flap went down on the take off roll, problem was loose screws on the back of the electric flap slider switch.
Micro switch problems usually are indicated by "stuck flaps" or flaps that will only move in one direction or not at all.
Micro switch problems usually are indicated by "stuck flaps" or flaps that will only move in one direction or not at all.
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kingtoad
Your comments on the C414 are interesting. Hanging my head in shame, I would have to admit to having taken off in a moderately loaded (freight) C402, with full flap down !!!
I realised what was happening cause it left the runway like it was a jump-jet.
I got the gear up, trickled the flap off and climbed away normally - verbally kicking my arse for the next hour.
R
Your comments on the C414 are interesting. Hanging my head in shame, I would have to admit to having taken off in a moderately loaded (freight) C402, with full flap down !!!
I realised what was happening cause it left the runway like it was a jump-jet.
I got the gear up, trickled the flap off and climbed away normally - verbally kicking my arse for the next hour.
R
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Gday,
V2, I had a similar thing happen in a C182 moons ago.
Was turning late low final into a one way strip when I heard a loud bang,I looked over my shoulder to the left to see the flap retract, quickly looking to the right hoping to see that the R side one had done the same. Thank god it had, lest I should roll inverted and have the ground rise up and smite thee
Anyway, it was too late in the approach for a go-around(oneway, big hill) so I sideslipped it to land flapless just stopping metres from the fence!
The owner of the aircraft and strip commented that he thought I landed a bit long and fast. When I told him what had occured he said " Orr yeah, she does that now and again"
Get it fixed was my reply.
Turned out to be a dodgy flap drive, jumping the gears inside.
Best be wheeling your Toot'n down to the shed for a peek inside.
Cheers,
Con
V2, I had a similar thing happen in a C182 moons ago.
Was turning late low final into a one way strip when I heard a loud bang,I looked over my shoulder to the left to see the flap retract, quickly looking to the right hoping to see that the R side one had done the same. Thank god it had, lest I should roll inverted and have the ground rise up and smite thee
Anyway, it was too late in the approach for a go-around(oneway, big hill) so I sideslipped it to land flapless just stopping metres from the fence!
The owner of the aircraft and strip commented that he thought I landed a bit long and fast. When I told him what had occured he said " Orr yeah, she does that now and again"
Get it fixed was my reply.
Turned out to be a dodgy flap drive, jumping the gears inside.
Best be wheeling your Toot'n down to the shed for a peek inside.
Cheers,
Con
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Well it seems that it happens more than I thought. I'll ask the old metho swilling LAME bloke who looks after it when I go past next time and try to get some more details. It's not my plane, I just fly it for a mate occasionally. The way they slammed fully up suggested to me that there is some some of overload on whatever part of the mechanism holds them down for landing because they really banged up hard but worked fine ever since. He'll do what he does for everything that comes his way. Blame the pilot for doing something wrong..... "everyone knows that when you put the flaps down in a "j" model on a day starting with a "T" that you should whistle the sound- track to MASH as it goes through flaps 30 you useless wannabe young idiot!!!"
Thanks for the replies guys.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I have personally expereinced the "sticking flap switch" (40 degrees flaps) on a C150 when doing a touch and go. The aircraft got off the ground all right but wouldn't climb. My instructor did a 180 turn around a gum tree and we landed. Problem could not be duplicated on the ground.
Lesson: Make sure the flaps are coming up on a touch and go. Be aware that a touch and go on a short gravel strip is going to be terminal if the flaps don't retract.
I think this may be why Cessna limited flap travel to 30 degrees.
On a related matter - assymetric flap extension (or retraction) be aware that it can happen. Large aircraft have a flap assymetry switch that will stop flap movement if it is not exactly synchronised.
Some people in light aircraft don't select flap while turning just so they can detect assymetry if it occurs.
Lesson: Make sure the flaps are coming up on a touch and go. Be aware that a touch and go on a short gravel strip is going to be terminal if the flaps don't retract.
I think this may be why Cessna limited flap travel to 30 degrees.
On a related matter - assymetric flap extension (or retraction) be aware that it can happen. Large aircraft have a flap assymetry switch that will stop flap movement if it is not exactly synchronised.
Some people in light aircraft don't select flap while turning just so they can detect assymetry if it occurs.
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Flap drive cable outer loose or worn. Allows the cable outer to move under load, thereby shortening the available inner cable movement. Voila! Flaps up.! Worn cable outer, or broken or worn clamp usually.
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Early Cessna 210's, and the Cessna 205, had hydraulic flaps which could be forced up by too much air pressure, such as being lowered at too high a speed. Loss of hydraulic pressure will also allow the flaps to bleed up, or with sudden loss, slam up.
I've experienced the same thing in the Cessna 182. The most common cause on the older 182's was a worn detent on the flap handle (manual flaps) which allowed the flaps to retract rather than being held in position by the handle. In that case, the cause should be obvious, becasue the handle jumps down a notch, or slams down completely.
I had the flaps assymetrically and partially retract due to a pulley failure during a landing once.
With electrical flaps, especially Cessna's with the very flimsy flap microswitches, never add more flaps than you're willing to use on a go-around. If you can't retract the flaps and do need to do a balked landing, you're out of luck...you're going around with whatever you have hanging out. If they're deployed very far, you may not be able to go around, and all your decisions at that point have already been made. You're landing, no matter what.
I've also seen internal wiring failures which caused the flaps to short and stay at a given position. Microswitches were fully functional, the motor and most of the wiring was just fine. I found one such failure a couple of years ago in a Cessna 340. The flaps wouldn't budge, though they could be run up and down by applying voltage direcly to the motor. The switches tested just fine. I happened to find the short when I was under the panel; it was break inside the wiring insulation, and was making inermittant contact. I happened to be touching it when it arc'd, and it burned my fingers. I then payed attention to it as I moved it about, and saw it arcing through the insulation. I've also seen that start a fire in the cockpit before.
I've experienced the same thing in the Cessna 182. The most common cause on the older 182's was a worn detent on the flap handle (manual flaps) which allowed the flaps to retract rather than being held in position by the handle. In that case, the cause should be obvious, becasue the handle jumps down a notch, or slams down completely.
I had the flaps assymetrically and partially retract due to a pulley failure during a landing once.
With electrical flaps, especially Cessna's with the very flimsy flap microswitches, never add more flaps than you're willing to use on a go-around. If you can't retract the flaps and do need to do a balked landing, you're out of luck...you're going around with whatever you have hanging out. If they're deployed very far, you may not be able to go around, and all your decisions at that point have already been made. You're landing, no matter what.
I've also seen internal wiring failures which caused the flaps to short and stay at a given position. Microswitches were fully functional, the motor and most of the wiring was just fine. I found one such failure a couple of years ago in a Cessna 340. The flaps wouldn't budge, though they could be run up and down by applying voltage direcly to the motor. The switches tested just fine. I happened to find the short when I was under the panel; it was break inside the wiring insulation, and was making inermittant contact. I happened to be touching it when it arc'd, and it burned my fingers. I then payed attention to it as I moved it about, and saw it arcing through the insulation. I've also seen that start a fire in the cockpit before.
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All these stories don't surprise me. The problem lies in sloppy "she'll be right" poor maintenance and often not helped by pilots failing to diligently write up the defects for many reasons fully covered in countless Pprune posts. Job security, complacency, laziness comes to mind. One pilot told me he never writes up a defect in a cross-hired aircraft since the other operator might get get pissed off and refuse to hire him the aircraft again..
Regarding the perceived failure of the C152 et al to climb with full flap down then obviously that is an airworthiness problem, (engine not delivering correct power perhaps). Providing the manufacturer's recommended procedures are followed the aircraft should attain a 3.2% gradient of climb with landing flap down. Of course on a high density altitude day the gradient will be less.
So if during a touch and go the flaps remain for some defect reason at full flap then the aircraft will still have climb performance and although it might be a low gradient of climb a competent pilot should easily handle it. The key word is competent.
Regarding the perceived failure of the C152 et al to climb with full flap down then obviously that is an airworthiness problem, (engine not delivering correct power perhaps). Providing the manufacturer's recommended procedures are followed the aircraft should attain a 3.2% gradient of climb with landing flap down. Of course on a high density altitude day the gradient will be less.
So if during a touch and go the flaps remain for some defect reason at full flap then the aircraft will still have climb performance and although it might be a low gradient of climb a competent pilot should easily handle it. The key word is competent.
A357, It was a C150 with 40 degrees of flaps out and it would just hold level, we got it to around 100 feet I guess, trouble was the hills and power pylons in front of us were not going "down' the windscreen at all. We experimented a week later at 3000ft and it would just climb. The turn around the gum tree was made with the stall warning sounding and we had to accept a descent as we did it.
This happened on a demonstration so the Instructor was flying. I had noticed the lack of acceleration when power was applied, but as a new student, I didn't pick up the cause. Sixth sense made me check the flaps when I realised we weren't climbing and the flaps were 40 degrees but the switch was full up. Instructor had hands full and things happened very fast. Two questions from the ground Q:"Did you do that on purpose?" A:"No!" Q:'are you in trouble?" A: "Yes".
The lesson was short field landings, hence 40 degrees flap. I've decided with 20/20 hindsight that doing a touch and go on a gravel strip in such a configuration is a "gotcha". At that strip it would be safer to do a full stop and backtrack - which is what I now do if I'm practicing something like that and there are obstructions.
Luckily we had a brand new prop, I hadn't filled the tanks completely and my Instructor weighed very considerably less than me. I have an idea that the reason the C152 and newer C172's have a 30 degree flap limit is something to do with climb performance at gross weight.
This happened on a demonstration so the Instructor was flying. I had noticed the lack of acceleration when power was applied, but as a new student, I didn't pick up the cause. Sixth sense made me check the flaps when I realised we weren't climbing and the flaps were 40 degrees but the switch was full up. Instructor had hands full and things happened very fast. Two questions from the ground Q:"Did you do that on purpose?" A:"No!" Q:'are you in trouble?" A: "Yes".
The lesson was short field landings, hence 40 degrees flap. I've decided with 20/20 hindsight that doing a touch and go on a gravel strip in such a configuration is a "gotcha". At that strip it would be safer to do a full stop and backtrack - which is what I now do if I'm practicing something like that and there are obstructions.
Luckily we had a brand new prop, I hadn't filled the tanks completely and my Instructor weighed very considerably less than me. I have an idea that the reason the C152 and newer C172's have a 30 degree flap limit is something to do with climb performance at gross weight.
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Sunfish
My recollection of why Cessna reduced the flap in 152, 172, 182 is that:
1) people kept bending nose wheels cause they were either never taught to, or were incapable of making the transition from a fairly steep approach through round out and nose high flare.
I say "Put the 40 degrees back and placard the flap lever 'F*ckwhits should limit use of flap to 30 degrees".
2) A further contributing factor could be the fact that another group of poorly trained or incompetent pilots allowed those Cessnas to "rear up" when power was applied for a go-round - the end result being stall/spin and dead people in a jumble of metal on the end of the runway. I cannot comprehend how anyone can allow that to happen in an aeroplane.
3) If you side-slip these Cessna 100s, it is supposedly possible for the extended flaps to reduce the effectiveness of the tailplane/rudder. The wisdom was that 40 degrees of flap makes this more likely than max 30 degrees.
R
My recollection of why Cessna reduced the flap in 152, 172, 182 is that:
1) people kept bending nose wheels cause they were either never taught to, or were incapable of making the transition from a fairly steep approach through round out and nose high flare.
I say "Put the 40 degrees back and placard the flap lever 'F*ckwhits should limit use of flap to 30 degrees".
2) A further contributing factor could be the fact that another group of poorly trained or incompetent pilots allowed those Cessnas to "rear up" when power was applied for a go-round - the end result being stall/spin and dead people in a jumble of metal on the end of the runway. I cannot comprehend how anyone can allow that to happen in an aeroplane.
3) If you side-slip these Cessna 100s, it is supposedly possible for the extended flaps to reduce the effectiveness of the tailplane/rudder. The wisdom was that 40 degrees of flap makes this more likely than max 30 degrees.
R
Last edited by Ratshit; 18th Jan 2007 at 09:04.
Funny that rat****. I like the ROD with 40 degrees and don't seem to have trouble either flaring or going around. Same seems to work with other aircraft, I like to be a little high and get rid of the energy at the last minute when its obvious I don't need it.
This leads to me doing quite a few go arounds because I'm a little high, but I prefer it to the alternative. I guess I'm the "go around" king and I brief my occasional victims (sorry pax) accordingly.
But maybe that's because I weigh a tonne.
This leads to me doing quite a few go arounds because I'm a little high, but I prefer it to the alternative. I guess I'm the "go around" king and I brief my occasional victims (sorry pax) accordingly.
But maybe that's because I weigh a tonne.
