The best way to build twin time?
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The best way to build twin time?
From what i've been told by people in the industry, in Australia anyway, is that it is hard to build up twin engine time when you have first started out in a job...i.e low hour pilot as a grade 3 instructor or something similar.
So, my question is, would it be worthwhile actually buying a twin engine plane and building up hours by flying it when you can? If this is the case, what do you reckon would be the best plane for it? From what I've seen you can pick up reasonable C 310 for about $90,000, or a Twin Comanche for about $100,000.
So, my question is, would it be worthwhile actually buying a twin engine plane and building up hours by flying it when you can? If this is the case, what do you reckon would be the best plane for it? From what I've seen you can pick up reasonable C 310 for about $90,000, or a Twin Comanche for about $100,000.
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The figure was an educated guess but here's one that right on the money:
http://www.aircraftsalescentre.com.a...?secId=5&id=37
http://www.aircraftsalescentre.com.a...?secId=5&id=37
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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SIDS program is not required if the aircraft is used for private use or airwork.
Mine is actually exempted from the program, and as long as it won't be used to carry passengers for hire or reward, will not be required to undergo the program. Cessna have considered in their wisdom, that it is not cost effective to write a program for my model (K), as there aren't enough of them about to warrant it. If the manufacturer doesn't require it, CASA don't.
Mine is also for sale.
and for less than what you are all quoting. 
As for building twin time, the requirement is really only for the employer, to satisfy insurance company requirements.
If your going to build some time, you would be better off to do a little research and consider the type your going to use. choose something that your likely to get a job in. B55/58, C310, C402, PA31. something in common use.
Mine is actually exempted from the program, and as long as it won't be used to carry passengers for hire or reward, will not be required to undergo the program. Cessna have considered in their wisdom, that it is not cost effective to write a program for my model (K), as there aren't enough of them about to warrant it. If the manufacturer doesn't require it, CASA don't.
Mine is also for sale.
and for less than what you are all quoting. As for building twin time, the requirement is really only for the employer, to satisfy insurance company requirements.
If your going to build some time, you would be better off to do a little research and consider the type your going to use. choose something that your likely to get a job in. B55/58, C310, C402, PA31. something in common use.
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Owning a twin will see you alienated from the other pilots, some employers may give you stick for it, and then in the multi column under desription it wont be charter, scenic or flight training!
Plus the question if you hgave this type of cash to throw around, you may choose a job with less than award or be prepared to pay your way into a job!
Best thing to do is get 10 hours on type which is required for charter, have a PA31, PN68, C310 and perhaps a bit of baron for get measure, if you have the cash these would be usefull, hiring them from a company will see the money back in GA and give you a good start.
Dont even worry till you have over 1000 hours cause its pretty rare to get near any of these until you do, or your very lucky!
4S
Plus the question if you hgave this type of cash to throw around, you may choose a job with less than award or be prepared to pay your way into a job!
Best thing to do is get 10 hours on type which is required for charter, have a PA31, PN68, C310 and perhaps a bit of baron for get measure, if you have the cash these would be usefull, hiring them from a company will see the money back in GA and give you a good start.
Dont even worry till you have over 1000 hours cause its pretty rare to get near any of these until you do, or your very lucky!
4S
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There is the option of finance and also a partnership with someone who is also in the same boat as you.......
So what you think it won't make a great deal of difference because in the logbook it isn't going to say 'charter' which is something a potential employer will ask for?
I guess it would be cheaper just to hire them if that was the case, but I was just curious as to whether it would be a viable option.
I can understand why a flying school would need to do this in order to satasfy the insurance requirements.
Another question? Is time in a glass cockpit going to make a great deal of difference when a potential employer looks at your flying history? How would they be able to tell that you have had glass cockpit time?
So what you think it won't make a great deal of difference because in the logbook it isn't going to say 'charter' which is something a potential employer will ask for?
I guess it would be cheaper just to hire them if that was the case, but I was just curious as to whether it would be a viable option.
I can understand why a flying school would need to do this in order to satasfy the insurance requirements.
Another question? Is time in a glass cockpit going to make a great deal of difference when a potential employer looks at your flying history? How would they be able to tell that you have had glass cockpit time?
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Even if you could purchase a light twin for $90K, you would be looking to spend another fortune just to run it. If I had $90K, I would have gone and toured Africa, the Carribean etc., and search for twin jobs while I was there.
Good luck.
Good luck.
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Yeah, I'm just enquiring about these things at the moment. I'm not likely to run off and go do all my training in a Cirrus or something just fort he glass cockpit experience. The Tomahawk is doing me quite well at present! It's just that there are some people saying 'oh glass cockpit this that and the rest of it' or 'twin time building quickly quickly eyc' so I'm trying to get some other veiw points on it.
flying around nowdays 
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chatting to the hire/fire pilot of a much-loved 19-seat TP operator, his words were:
"i'd rather employ someone that has 200hrs flying freight single IFR in **** weather, than someone who has 500hrs sunny weather vfr twin flying - the plane's easy to fly. the numbers are the challenge...."
and on that, if you had your own twin ifr machine, and you had a choice of fine weather vfr flying an ifr route, or crappy weather ifr flying an ifr route, which would you take?
and your twin commanche - purchase price might be attractive, but don't forget you have 2 of everything to fix/overhaul etc. call your local maintennance shop and ask them how much to do 2 x O320 engine overhauls, and 2 x constant speed prop overhauls..... i don't think you'd get much change out of $80k. plus retractable maintennance costs. plus ensuring your ifr systems are kept operational. plus plus plus.
get into a twin ifr sydicate - could be the best of both worlds.
"i'd rather employ someone that has 200hrs flying freight single IFR in **** weather, than someone who has 500hrs sunny weather vfr twin flying - the plane's easy to fly. the numbers are the challenge...."
and on that, if you had your own twin ifr machine, and you had a choice of fine weather vfr flying an ifr route, or crappy weather ifr flying an ifr route, which would you take?
and your twin commanche - purchase price might be attractive, but don't forget you have 2 of everything to fix/overhaul etc. call your local maintennance shop and ask them how much to do 2 x O320 engine overhauls, and 2 x constant speed prop overhauls..... i don't think you'd get much change out of $80k. plus retractable maintennance costs. plus ensuring your ifr systems are kept operational. plus plus plus.
get into a twin ifr sydicate - could be the best of both worlds.
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Yeah, I'm just enquiring about these things at the moment. I'm not likely to run off and go do all my training in a Cirrus or something just fort he glass cockpit experience. The Tomahawk is doing me quite well at present! It's just that there are some people saying 'oh glass cockpit this that and the rest of it' or 'twin time building quickly quickly eyc' so I'm trying to get some other veiw points on it.
take some things you are told on board and keep an open mind because its a differant world out here away from the safety of the boys club at the flying school, sometimes for the worse, in my case for the better! i love this job, i live for the challenges you face and everytime you finish a page in the log and total it up it seems worth while.
Get used to washing aircraft, get used to washing the bosses car. Learn how to do a 50 hourly at your flying school and get checked off. Get used to flying on days where you would never even think about leaving in your training, take diversion training seriously because it will save your life if captain garmin shuts down and your around lots of TC and TS. Always mark your position on a map and keep track of where you are no matter what you do and paln as far ahead as you can. I have been caught a few times when i didnt plan ahead as well as i should have. Get your training in a 152/172 then 182rg no matter how much your boss tells you that employers like mooney time!
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Never considered multi-engine time was all that important when employing new pilots. When perusing a candidate’s log-book I’m probably more interested in seeing which of my old friends they flew with as a student. Probing will open up some discussion that leads to an insight on work ethos. Also interested in where they have operated not what.
Surprising how much you learn about ‘rising stars’ when working around the traps. Poor radio procedure will reflect badly on an entire company even though there may be just a few culprits. Likewise poor procedures at CTAF’s – straight in approaches with a tail wind forcing the guy on downwind to extend his circuit for example!
How often do you see a light twin start engines … the first engine is blowing blue smoke and the second engine is already turning – what happened to after start checks? Another wannabe discounted.
You build up a list of operators who have disciplined pilots in their ranks and those that are cowboys, applicants from the latter don’t even make interview.
You guys should consider the economics of running a flight operation.
Primarily the operator is concerned about his expensive assets and how you will take care of them and look after his hard spending dollars. Your approach to the client base has a major bearing on the company. Operators don’t want accidents or other ‘events’ that may result in legal litigation or interest from CASA. Sure the odd incident will occur and needs to be reported internally so that checks and balances may be applied at all levels.
How you fit in will determine the longevity of your tenure, and advancement within. Problem children soon create complaints from the other pilots as do complex personalities. Chief pilots don’t like having to baby-sit, they have enough on their plates already. I exclude training from that as most CP’s and checkers like to value-add to their operation and a little training can be very productive.
Know your AIP and AFM etc. The interviewers will know your level of experience and aircraft type operated before you enter the room. A good interviewer will research a few pertinent questions out of an AFM (operators libraries are full of those) that you should be familiar with. If you don’t know the answers don’t bother reapplying as your file has probably already been notated for future reference.
I keep hearing how insurers insist on high hours for multi-engine experience. Perhaps that may be the case with operators who have poor records but I was only ever queried once about experience and that related to a ferry flight involving a new turbine aircraft … they were interested in the experience level of the crew who were conducting the ferry.
Some pilots are naturals but most of us work to get there. Work means commitment but will ultimately lead to an acceptable skill level in a relatively short period of time. Operating attitudes cannot be taught particularly to dick-heads or complex personalities regardless of how much time there is. Better to cut the losses.
Surprising how much you learn about ‘rising stars’ when working around the traps. Poor radio procedure will reflect badly on an entire company even though there may be just a few culprits. Likewise poor procedures at CTAF’s – straight in approaches with a tail wind forcing the guy on downwind to extend his circuit for example!
How often do you see a light twin start engines … the first engine is blowing blue smoke and the second engine is already turning – what happened to after start checks? Another wannabe discounted.
You build up a list of operators who have disciplined pilots in their ranks and those that are cowboys, applicants from the latter don’t even make interview.
You guys should consider the economics of running a flight operation.
Primarily the operator is concerned about his expensive assets and how you will take care of them and look after his hard spending dollars. Your approach to the client base has a major bearing on the company. Operators don’t want accidents or other ‘events’ that may result in legal litigation or interest from CASA. Sure the odd incident will occur and needs to be reported internally so that checks and balances may be applied at all levels.
How you fit in will determine the longevity of your tenure, and advancement within. Problem children soon create complaints from the other pilots as do complex personalities. Chief pilots don’t like having to baby-sit, they have enough on their plates already. I exclude training from that as most CP’s and checkers like to value-add to their operation and a little training can be very productive.
Know your AIP and AFM etc. The interviewers will know your level of experience and aircraft type operated before you enter the room. A good interviewer will research a few pertinent questions out of an AFM (operators libraries are full of those) that you should be familiar with. If you don’t know the answers don’t bother reapplying as your file has probably already been notated for future reference.
I keep hearing how insurers insist on high hours for multi-engine experience. Perhaps that may be the case with operators who have poor records but I was only ever queried once about experience and that related to a ferry flight involving a new turbine aircraft … they were interested in the experience level of the crew who were conducting the ferry.
Some pilots are naturals but most of us work to get there. Work means commitment but will ultimately lead to an acceptable skill level in a relatively short period of time. Operating attitudes cannot be taught particularly to dick-heads or complex personalities regardless of how much time there is. Better to cut the losses.
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WilliamOK
In a word NO, dont even think about it.
I'm coming up to 40 years in the business and I have never, not ever, seen what you propose bring anything but heartache and tears.
Then have a good look at some of the sage advice here.
The best advice I can give you is to have a nice cup of tea, a Bex and a lie down until the feeling goes away.
In a word NO, dont even think about it.
I'm coming up to 40 years in the business and I have never, not ever, seen what you propose bring anything but heartache and tears.
Then have a good look at some of the sage advice here.
The best advice I can give you is to have a nice cup of tea, a Bex and a lie down until the feeling goes away.
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Take the wise advice from the previous posts.I dont want to start a proxy on the rights/wrongs of owning an airplane.
Head up North, couple of seasons will see you land a twin job. Lets face it ,when you own your own airplane its not like you are going to be making some serious decisions,are you?Try the pressure of the real world.Owning an airplane to simlpy plough up and down the coast when the weather is fine does not demonstrate anything in the way of experince to an prospective employer.
''Mr Bloggs, can you give me an example when you had to make a sound operational decision and how you managed it''.
Think about it before you jump in deep.Doing the apprenticeship first will teach you and will serve you good later on in your career.
I know, I used to say when I was in the infancy of my career(probly still am)''oh yea flying a big machine is easy''.It may look easy but as any tradesmen goes to work, he takes his toolbox, and the same with you, you will need the same toolbox, and what's in it will be what you have aquired,which is only achieved through ''on the job'' experience.
A330
Head up North, couple of seasons will see you land a twin job. Lets face it ,when you own your own airplane its not like you are going to be making some serious decisions,are you?Try the pressure of the real world.Owning an airplane to simlpy plough up and down the coast when the weather is fine does not demonstrate anything in the way of experince to an prospective employer.
''Mr Bloggs, can you give me an example when you had to make a sound operational decision and how you managed it''.
Think about it before you jump in deep.Doing the apprenticeship first will teach you and will serve you good later on in your career.
I know, I used to say when I was in the infancy of my career(probly still am)''oh yea flying a big machine is easy''.It may look easy but as any tradesmen goes to work, he takes his toolbox, and the same with you, you will need the same toolbox, and what's in it will be what you have aquired,which is only achieved through ''on the job'' experience.
A330
Last edited by airbusa330; 20th Dec 2006 at 20:36. Reason: Dont know
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not that hard.
If you want twin time, one would think that you would need to do your flight training with a company that has twin aircraft online for charter/scenic flights etc, for example, SunAir, Mainland Air, Air Wanganui, Air Manawatu (i think).
Don't do your CPL and/or instructor rating somewhere where there is no room to progress onto other types (twins or whatever).
It is actually quite straight forward one would imagine. When I come round to doing my MEIR in a few years I'll be doing the above.
Don't do your CPL and/or instructor rating somewhere where there is no room to progress onto other types (twins or whatever).
It is actually quite straight forward one would imagine. When I come round to doing my MEIR in a few years I'll be doing the above.
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Best way to build up twin time.....well let me think......how about get a job in a company that has twin engine aircraft, do the single engine time, remain employed and then chances are you will be put on the twins. Its really that simple.
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Probably not the best idea to buy any aircraft on a GA wage WilliamOK, unless you really have a lot of spare cash you dont want anymore...
Like the old saying goes "how do you make a small fortune as an aircraft owner?... Start with a large one!
If you still really wanted to buy a twin, try and buy something that might be able to get work wherever you base it to subsidise your costs (maint, insurance, reg etc), otherwise you will find yourself not even being able to keep yourself fed, let alone being able to afford flying it...
But as has been said in some of the other posts, try and find work in a company that has twin work available, fly the singles for a while and who knows, you might get the chance to fly one on your own after 12months
Just hang in there, it wont happen overnight, but it will happen, i think more people need to learn that, dont get impatient or it will only serve to make the people you work with unhappy if you complain about not getting it...
Cheers, have a Good Chrissie ppruners
Turbz
Like the old saying goes "how do you make a small fortune as an aircraft owner?... Start with a large one!
If you still really wanted to buy a twin, try and buy something that might be able to get work wherever you base it to subsidise your costs (maint, insurance, reg etc), otherwise you will find yourself not even being able to keep yourself fed, let alone being able to afford flying it...
But as has been said in some of the other posts, try and find work in a company that has twin work available, fly the singles for a while and who knows, you might get the chance to fly one on your own after 12months
Just hang in there, it wont happen overnight, but it will happen, i think more people need to learn that, dont get impatient or it will only serve to make the people you work with unhappy if you complain about not getting it...
Cheers, have a Good Chrissie ppruners
Turbz
Last edited by 777WakeTurbz; 21st Dec 2006 at 23:34. Reason: None
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Why stop at a 310 or commanche? Just hit your parents up for a bit more and get a 737, doesnt have to be a NG, 200 series time counts too.
You could even subsidise it by seeing if your friends wanted to go on trips. You could offset the cost by hitting them up for the price of J* ticket.
Or you could get some single time and then try and get a job with an operator with twins. Just a thought.
You could even subsidise it by seeing if your friends wanted to go on trips. You could offset the cost by hitting them up for the price of J* ticket.
Or you could get some single time and then try and get a job with an operator with twins. Just a thought.