IFR Meat Bombs
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Down a dark hole
IFR Meat Bombs
Had cause to fly a GPS RNAV Appr this morning - and as I was doing so, a meat bomber was climbing to FL140 over the aerodrome (in VMC over solid overcast).
I broke out of 8/8 poo through a 900' AGL cloudbase and flew a circling approach to land.
Not long after I had exited the aircraft, 3 or 4 canopies popped out of the cloud and landed on the field.
Probably best not to say where it was.
Interesting!
R
I broke out of 8/8 poo through a 900' AGL cloudbase and flew a circling approach to land.
Not long after I had exited the aircraft, 3 or 4 canopies popped out of the cloud and landed on the field.
Probably best not to say where it was.
Interesting!
R
Joined: May 2005
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From: Brisbane
When is enough....ENOUGH
Rat!!!!, I too wonder about safety and just plain common sense of such ops. I will go on record here to say that at times in the YCAB-YCDR-YRED area I have seen a similar thing and I am not impressed by it. I believe CASA do grant some operators an exemption to bust fluffies but I can not see the sense in it. It should not be allowed at ANY time in my opinion.
You have to make a brave assumption that any a/c in the area has a radio, has it on, and on the same freq, and the pilot actually understands what is potentially going on above him and the cloud. Now what happens when its Mr Jerry Attric in his DH Moth with barely a radio, and no idea of exactly where he is and one of these guys Bombs him, they take each other out and maybe someone living underneath.
We have a big enough problem at YCAB with thses guys in VMC, even landing on active and busy runways and or too damn close to them. At least at YRED they take them around the corner and drop them on the beach.
So what gets done about it????????
Best thing you can do is take it up with CASA, report it and follow it through, because some innocent people will be killed one day if it gets far to coincidental.
J
You have to make a brave assumption that any a/c in the area has a radio, has it on, and on the same freq, and the pilot actually understands what is potentially going on above him and the cloud. Now what happens when its Mr Jerry Attric in his DH Moth with barely a radio, and no idea of exactly where he is and one of these guys Bombs him, they take each other out and maybe someone living underneath.
We have a big enough problem at YCAB with thses guys in VMC, even landing on active and busy runways and or too damn close to them. At least at YRED they take them around the corner and drop them on the beach.
So what gets done about it????????
Best thing you can do is take it up with CASA, report it and follow it through, because some innocent people will be killed one day if it gets far to coincidental.
J
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From: Down a dark hole
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Antipodea
Rat!!!!,
Canopies can descend in holes with a circumference far less than that required for an aircraft. So in theory a 900ft cloud base is not a problem as long as there is a hole for them to descend thru.
I have also been involved with CASA approved cloud jumping operations. In conjunction with appropriate aircraft, primary and secondary radar, trained ground staff and radio calls it is a safe and reasonable operation. Just because Mr Gypsy moth doesn't want to listen to (or worse still not carry) a radio doesn't mean parachuting ops should not be approved.
Can I suggest a call to the operator with your concerns, or failing that a call to your local FOI would be a more appropriate channel. From my skydiving days a call like that would be taken very seriously.
Canopies can descend in holes with a circumference far less than that required for an aircraft. So in theory a 900ft cloud base is not a problem as long as there is a hole for them to descend thru.
I have also been involved with CASA approved cloud jumping operations. In conjunction with appropriate aircraft, primary and secondary radar, trained ground staff and radio calls it is a safe and reasonable operation. Just because Mr Gypsy moth doesn't want to listen to (or worse still not carry) a radio doesn't mean parachuting ops should not be approved.
Can I suggest a call to the operator with your concerns, or failing that a call to your local FOI would be a more appropriate channel. From my skydiving days a call like that would be taken very seriously.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Secret base in Hoth...
Thought that the jumpers could not leave the aircraft unless they have a positive fix of the DZ BEFORE departing the aircraft? If not they cant jump??
Was the aircraft in question flying off a IFR flight plan?
Was the aircraft in question flying off a IFR flight plan?
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: QLD, Australia
Well, tell us more - did he get/need a clearance to drop? Did he get IFR traffic, was he IFR, was he RNAV equiped, does the aerodrome have a Nav Aid, did he use a radio, how long did it take you to land and tell your pax how friggin good you are and then get outa your a/c before you saw said canopies.
Just interested in more details, is all!
Just interested in more details, is all!
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
One has to wonder. If said bomber has a radio and is making appropriate calls, could be on an IFR plan, gets ATC clearance to drop over a designated DZ, and mister gerry Atric in his gypsy moth is blundering around without a radio and/or not making calls, who is the danger to who?.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Bran Castle
I'm assuming this was in Nth Qld, if so all 3 dropzones ie. cns/ifl/tuy need ATC clearance to drop, furthermore, all parachute aircraft in the tropics are informed about all traffic, and are requested to hold for RPT ops.
On day in question, one such company was not operating nth qld..........one big RDO.
On day in question, one such company was not operating nth qld..........one big RDO.
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Wellington,NZ
Canopies can descend in holes with a circumference far less than that required for an aircraft. So in theory a 900ft cloud base is not a problem as long as there is a hole for them to descend thru.
Two or three canopy diameters? I don't think so.
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From: Down a dark hole
OK let's not get too carried away here. My orginal post questioned whether meatbombs dropping through a 900' ceiling over a GA aerodrome was "kosher". I did indeed suggest in a subsequent post that it "seems crazy" - whether legal or not.
I have not yet been convinced that I need to change my opinion.
FullySickBro - indeed canopies may be able to "decend in holes with a circumference far less than that required for an aircraft", but that does not get around the fact that dropping through a hole at 900' over an active airfield might present some safety issues.
ContactMeNow - I doubt the aircraft was on an IFR plan, but that is a different issue to meatbombs dropping through cloud (or holes) to a 900' ceiling.
Spinnerhead -
1) I am sure the aircraft had ATC approval to drop (I have heard their operations many times before., however, my understanding is that that clearance relates to the Class C airspace above 6500' and I suspect Center not having any SSR paints in the area of the airfield. They would not get primary returns from this location.
2) He would have got IFR traffic (including me)
3) I would be surprised if the aircraft did not have at least a hand held GPS
4) The aerodrome has an NDB
5) The canopies appearred maybe 10 minutes after I had landed
6) Did NOT have to tell my pax "how friggin good" I am - cause I was by myself and it only took a minute to tell "George" "how friggin good" he is.
Enough detail for you?
wizard of oz - this aerodrome is used for GA, training, sports aircraft and ultralights
romeocharlie - you will figure from the above that it is YIFL I am talking about. As for "all parachute aircraft in the tropics are informed about all traffic", don't you mean all "known" traffic?
Lefthanded Rock Thrower - are you suggesting that it is OK for a Cresco to spiral down out of a hole into the circuit at 900'?
"an IFR arrival will definately be in radio contact with a parchuting aircraft" - True, and I was, and I assume that the meat bombs were held until I called on the ground to cancel my SARWATCH.
but I am not talking about me here!
So we have established that the meat bomber was aware of all known traffic, and the meat bombs descended, via a hole in the otherwise solid overcast that was large enough to spiral a Cresco (full reverse in flight!) through, into the clear at 900" above the aerodrome!
Thanks to all. I thought for a minute there might have been a safety issue here! Clearly I was coming from a position of ignorance! The aerodrome looked pretty glagged in when I arrived and almost as glagged in when I left 45 min later - but what would I know!
R
I have not yet been convinced that I need to change my opinion.
FullySickBro - indeed canopies may be able to "decend in holes with a circumference far less than that required for an aircraft", but that does not get around the fact that dropping through a hole at 900' over an active airfield might present some safety issues.
ContactMeNow - I doubt the aircraft was on an IFR plan, but that is a different issue to meatbombs dropping through cloud (or holes) to a 900' ceiling.
Spinnerhead -
1) I am sure the aircraft had ATC approval to drop (I have heard their operations many times before., however, my understanding is that that clearance relates to the Class C airspace above 6500' and I suspect Center not having any SSR paints in the area of the airfield. They would not get primary returns from this location.
2) He would have got IFR traffic (including me)
3) I would be surprised if the aircraft did not have at least a hand held GPS
4) The aerodrome has an NDB
5) The canopies appearred maybe 10 minutes after I had landed
6) Did NOT have to tell my pax "how friggin good" I am - cause I was by myself and it only took a minute to tell "George" "how friggin good" he is.
Enough detail for you?
wizard of oz - this aerodrome is used for GA, training, sports aircraft and ultralights
romeocharlie - you will figure from the above that it is YIFL I am talking about. As for "all parachute aircraft in the tropics are informed about all traffic", don't you mean all "known" traffic?
Lefthanded Rock Thrower - are you suggesting that it is OK for a Cresco to spiral down out of a hole into the circuit at 900'?
"an IFR arrival will definately be in radio contact with a parchuting aircraft" - True, and I was, and I assume that the meat bombs were held until I called on the ground to cancel my SARWATCH.
but I am not talking about me here!
So we have established that the meat bomber was aware of all known traffic, and the meat bombs descended, via a hole in the otherwise solid overcast that was large enough to spiral a Cresco (full reverse in flight!) through, into the clear at 900" above the aerodrome!
Thanks to all. I thought for a minute there might have been a safety issue here! Clearly I was coming from a position of ignorance! The aerodrome looked pretty glagged in when I arrived and almost as glagged in when I left 45 min later - but what would I know!
R
Last edited by Ratshit; 16th December 2006 at 10:21.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Bran Castle
Unfortunately or fortunately ignorance is bliss. The dropzones in fnq are probably some of the most legal in Australia, but it doesn't make it right. All I can say is I am trying my hardest to change the mentality that it's fine to fly through 8/8ths cloud, which is generally the weather in good old bcs.
Last edited by romeocharlie; 20th December 2006 at 05:12.
