Question - Passengers during aeros?

[VH-XXX]

Sorry if this is a no brainer, however is there a limit on the number of passengers you can take when doing aero's...? Ie. can I take 3 passengers in a 4 seater?

Thanks.
Squarker.

[Wizofoz]

Don't think there is any regulatory problem, it would be as many as the aircraft is certified to do aeros with. That being said, I don't know of any aircraft able to do aeros with more than two up (possibley a Yak18?). Things like the Fuji have four seats but a flight manual limitation to two up for aeros.

What type are you thinking of?

[barondriver]

Back in my training days someone mentioned that you can do aeros in a 172 in America. Sounds like a bull to me. Besides it'd go like a bit of a slug with 4 in it.

[rmcdonal]

I would think that with 4 pob you would be outside the aerobatic envelope on the load sheet.

[heywatchthis]

I know they do spin training in 172's here in the USA.
Found a vid of someone doing a spin and a roll, dont know how many pobs..

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...oid=1303020796

You can roll anything as long as you do it right!
Got a flashy new job about 18 months ago flying learjets. First flight with the CP, barroll roll climbing through 10,000.. nice

[Speeds high]

Spinning in 172

The 172 can only be spun in the utility catergory which restricts it to 2 Pob, and a smattering of gas.

[Arm out the window]

Heywatchthis, not being too judgmental here, but how's the CP there - great example to set...(not that it wouldn't be fun) - he'd have a hard time when someone brings back a broken machine:
"Oi, what are you doing busting the limits?!"
"Well, it's OK for you"
"Good point..."

[stevef]

Some years back, a Rallye that was maintained by the company I worked for, lost its wings, killing the the three occupants: the pilot, a boy having the flight as a 16th birthday present and his father, who'd paid for it. The cause? It had been seen a few minutes earlier performing aerobatics. The Aircraft Accident Investigation Board determined that the wing separation had been caused by the pilot exceeding the recommended limitations for that particular weight.
That wasn't a good weekend - another customer flew his AA5 into a stuffed cloud on a cross-country flight.
:^(

[mingalababya]

Originally Posted by heywatchthis

You can roll anything as long as you do it right!

There's a video floating around of a 707 doing a barrell roll during a test flight .... can't remember where I saw it ... it might be on YouTube

[AlphaMale]

707 Roll video

[VH-XXX]

Yep, Yak18... spot on.

[MCKES]

707 roll

A normal aileron roll does not imply any stress on the airframe. It is a 1G manouvere. just to get technical. A loop will rip the wings off, or anything else.

[slackie]

As always...consult the aircraft manual...stay within the limits stipulated...if that includes 4 people and aerobatics then...yes it is possible!!

As you say...seems like a no brainer to me!

Almost any aircraft is "capable" of performing "aerobatics"...most just aren't capable of recovering (intact) from a botched manouver....sounds too much like Russian Roulette performing aeros in aircraft that aren't certified for the purpose.

[Arm out the window]

Yes, I'm sure an aileron roll or a gentle barrel roll in most aircraft would be doable without too much drama - the major problems that arise as I see it, though, are:

a) If you stuff it up and exceed the limits while recovering, you've done something to the airframe you're not supposed to, and you may have damaged it.
You're hardly going to go back to the engineers and say 'Oh, I was deliberately exceeding flight manual limits and may have stuffed the aircraft, could you please inspect it?'.
Nope, you'd most likely skulk off as if nothing had happened, in the worst case maybe leading to some tragic occurence like the one stevef mentioned;

b) If you get found out you could do your licence; and

c) If you get found out and damage the aircraft, the insurance company is going to come after you in a big way.

[Speeds high]

Famous last words

You can roll anything as long as you do it right!

A normal aileron roll does not imply any stress on the airframe

Famous last words

[six_degrees]

An aileron roll in a perfect world is 1G, sure, close enough. To achieve this you need a high enough rate of roll and enough momentum. A slow roll however will vary between 1G and -1 G. The point is a 1G aileron roll only happens in a decent aircraft when conducted correctly. Anything not designed for it, or with a slower roll rate, will not produce a constant 1 G roll (unless height is sacrificed) and will easily exceed that if things go awry.

I agree - aerobatics in anything not certified for it is asking for trouble. You might get away with it once or a hundred times, but it will sting you eventually. We had a pilot tried aileron rolls in a PA28 years ago - singificant damage was done to the structure.

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by six_degrees

An aileron roll in a perfect world is 1G, sure, close enough. To achieve this you need a high enough rate of roll and enough momentum. A slow roll however will vary between 1G and -1 G. The point is a 1G aileron roll only happens in a decent aircraft when conducted correctly. Anything not designed for it, or with a slower roll rate, will not produce a constant 1 G roll (unless height is sacrificed) and will easily exceed that if things go awry.

A slow roll rate need not be a problem. Just get a good bit of speed, raise the nose nice and high and allow it to drop through the horizon as you roll. You'll get Gs around 1.5 from the initial pull, down to 0.5 or so going inverted and you'll recover at your entry altitude with speed for another manoeuvre. Of course, then it's no longer a 1g manoeuvre, though it's still well within limits for most non-aerobatic aircraft.

One thing to be wary of with rolling manoeuvres. The g force experienced in the cockpit may be quite different to that at the wing tips. The up-going wing in a manoeuvre involving rolling and pulling, such as a barrel roll, may have significantly more loading than the fuselage and you may be exceeding limits without realising it.

[butterfingers]

Originally Posted by Wizofoz

Don't think there is any regulatory problem, it would be as many as the aircraft is certified to do aeros with. That being said, I don't know of any aircraft able to do aeros with more than two up (possibley a Yak18?). Things like the Fuji have four seats but a flight manual limitation to two up for aeros.

What type are you thinking of?

Cant remember where i read it (probably the flight manual) , but the Yak 18 can only do aeros when two up....

[podbreak]

Originally Posted by AerocatS2A

A slow roll rate need not be a problem. Just get a good bit of speed, raise the nose nice and high and allow it to drop through the horizon as you roll. You'll get Gs around 1.5 from the initial pull, down to 0.5 or so going inverted and you'll recover at your entry altitude with speed for another manoeuvre. Of course, then it's no longer a 1g manoeuvre, though it's still well within limits for most non-aerobatic aircraft.

One thing to be wary of with rolling manoeuvres. The g force experienced in the cockpit may be quite different to that at the wing tips. The up-going wing in a manoeuvre involving rolling and pulling, such as a barrel roll, may have significantly more loading than the fuselage and you may be exceeding limits without realising it.

Indeed, I think a few people have their barrel and aileron rolls mixed up. Do an aileron roll (not a barrel roll like in the vid) in a 707 and you'll stress the wings. Not to mention that doing a proper aileron roll with a roll rate so slow, will definitely not be a 1G manoeuver!

[nomorecatering]

Didnt Beech offer an aerobatic version of the Bonanza many years back??