Passengers Using Gps Unit In Flight
Incurable Romantic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nr ABX (NSW)
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Passengers Using Gps Unit In Flight
Recently I was on a QF flight from MEL to PER and was seated in the second row from the back,at about 30 mins into the flight we were probably at about FL 350 when the passenger in the window seat started using a handheld gps unit.
I was quite surprised as I was under the impression that these sorts of devices came under the same category as mobile phones,eg not able to be used at any time whilst onboard.
It appears that the FA was either unaware of the situation or unconcerned,I was uncomfortable with the situation but did not wish to cause a scene so did not make any comment.
The passenger had even loaded the unit with waypoints etc and was able to see when the aircraft intercepted navigation aids etc.
Was I irresponsible in not alerting CC about this or was I concerned for nothing?
The other point is do commercial aircraft make much use of GPS for navigation and could it conflict with a handheld unit?
I was quite surprised as I was under the impression that these sorts of devices came under the same category as mobile phones,eg not able to be used at any time whilst onboard.
It appears that the FA was either unaware of the situation or unconcerned,I was uncomfortable with the situation but did not wish to cause a scene so did not make any comment.
The passenger had even loaded the unit with waypoints etc and was able to see when the aircraft intercepted navigation aids etc.
Was I irresponsible in not alerting CC about this or was I concerned for nothing?
The other point is do commercial aircraft make much use of GPS for navigation and could it conflict with a handheld unit?
A mobile phone is a transceiver which emanates potentially harmful RF signals which may interfere with aircraft systems.
A GPS is solely a receiver which does not emanate RF signals and is no more harmful than a portable FM receiver.
A GPS is solely a receiver which does not emanate RF signals and is no more harmful than a portable FM receiver.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: all over the shop
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Torres
A GPS is solely a receiver which does not emanate RF signals and is no more harmful than a portable FM receiver
On a slightly different note and sorry for threaddrift, but whats peoples thoughts on Wifi devices being used inflight? As my understanding is technically anything that transmits inflight may not be used, I ask pax to turn off Wifi functionality - case in point being groups of schoolkids/friends etc playing eachother on their Playstation Portables (I am pretty sure its wifi they use to communicate).
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of airlines mention both GPS receivers and FM radios as prohibited in-flight.
Airlines generally agree that PEDs such as hearing aids, pacemakers, electronic watches, and one-way pagers may be used at any time during the flight. On the other hand, a majority of airlines do not allow certain portable electronic devices at any time. Examples of these are AM/FM radios, television sets, two-way pagers, and CB radios.
In the middle of these two extremes are portable electronic devices that can only be operated before departure, while the aircraft door is open, or after the aircraft has reached an altitude of 10,000 feet. When the aircraft is descending, all PEDs in this category must be turned off. These actions are usually controlled by flight attendant announcements throughout the flight. The PEDs subject to these restrictions include CD players, laptop computers, electronic video games, and GPS navigation sets.
In the middle of these two extremes are portable electronic devices that can only be operated before departure, while the aircraft door is open, or after the aircraft has reached an altitude of 10,000 feet. When the aircraft is descending, all PEDs in this category must be turned off. These actions are usually controlled by flight attendant announcements throughout the flight. The PEDs subject to these restrictions include CD players, laptop computers, electronic video games, and GPS navigation sets.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: all over the shop
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ScottyDoo not sure where that is quoted from, but it backs up what was mentioned earlier about use of GPS inflight:
Its always best to refer directly to the airline involved though as some do have different policies
In the middle of these two extremes are portable electronic devices that can only be operated before departure, while the aircraft door is open, or after the aircraft has reached an altitude of 10,000 feet. When the aircraft is descending, all PEDs in this category must be turned off. These actions are usually controlled by flight attendant announcements throughout the flight. The PEDs subject to these restrictions include CD players, laptop computers, electronic video games, and GPS navigation sets.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: EGBJ Gloucester
Age: 40
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wifi is also much lower power than GSM. IIRC mobile phones transmit at 2-5 Watts, whereas a WiFi router will output on the order of 100mW.
Does anyone know if EM radiation power output is looked at to choose if something is a risk when determining policy? It would seem sensible...
Does anyone know if EM radiation power output is looked at to choose if something is a risk when determining policy? It would seem sensible...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Perth
Age: 55
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it strange that you cannot use GPS given it's only a reciever, same with the FM. No tx freq's running out to play with avionics banks.
With wifi the tx is about 2.8 ghz and not that strong a tx so it doesn't chew too much power. Could be a problem with certain instruments. I think anything that Tx's has the propensity to cause interference with the avionics and you should always check with the carrier as to what you can and can't use.
With wifi the tx is about 2.8 ghz and not that strong a tx so it doesn't chew too much power. Could be a problem with certain instruments. I think anything that Tx's has the propensity to cause interference with the avionics and you should always check with the carrier as to what you can and can't use.
Incurable Romantic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nr ABX (NSW)
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may have just answered my own question-this from the QF website:
"
Electronic Equipment
All electronic devices, including PDAs, laptop computers, handheld games and toys must be switched off during take-off and landing.
Portable electronic equipment such as laptop computers (including WiFi and Bluetooth enabled devices), PDAs (without mobile phones), personal music (for example, iPods) and electronic game devices may be used when the aircraft seat belt sign is extinguished after take-off and until the top of descent.
Radio transmission using personal communication devices (including walkie-talkies, two-way pagers, or global positioning systems) is prohibited at all stages of flight, as it may interfere with the aircraft's communication and navigation systems."
Seems strange if,as it appears to be the case,GPS units only receive a signal from a satellite and use triangulation to compute a position.
"
Electronic Equipment
All electronic devices, including PDAs, laptop computers, handheld games and toys must be switched off during take-off and landing.
Portable electronic equipment such as laptop computers (including WiFi and Bluetooth enabled devices), PDAs (without mobile phones), personal music (for example, iPods) and electronic game devices may be used when the aircraft seat belt sign is extinguished after take-off and until the top of descent.
Radio transmission using personal communication devices (including walkie-talkies, two-way pagers, or global positioning systems) is prohibited at all stages of flight, as it may interfere with the aircraft's communication and navigation systems."
Seems strange if,as it appears to be the case,GPS units only receive a signal from a satellite and use triangulation to compute a position.
From the Qantas website "in the air" Communication page:
While the GPS is not a transmitter, I think they may be more concerned about spreading alarm among passengers if Nigel's expereince is an example.
Radio transmission using personal communication devices (including walkie-talkies, two-way pagers, or global positioning systems) is prohibited at all stages of flight, as it may interfere with the aircraft's communication and navigation systems.
Just because something's a 'receiver' doesn't mean it won't emit potentially interfering signals. AM/FM radios, GPSs and other electronic devices have oscillators on board, which oscillators are busilly radiating (albeit at a very low power level).
Join Date: May 2004
Location: all over the shop
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by NIGELINOZ
Radio transmission using personal communication devices (including walkie-talkies, two-way pagers, or global positioning systems) is prohibited at all stages of flight, as it may interfere with the aircraft's communication and navigation systems."
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re-wifi
Inflight wifi has been a service offered by some carriers for some time now through "Connection by Boeing"
so this seems to imply that the wifi signal from laptops would not be a problem to aircraft systems.
The program has been discontinued though, apparently because it was not popular.
so this seems to imply that the wifi signal from laptops would not be a problem to aircraft systems.
The program has been discontinued though, apparently because it was not popular.
Bottums Up
During the dark ages, that period after the decommissoning of the VLF/Omega nav system and the fitting of GPS to the QFLink quadrapuff fleet, the only way they stayed on track was if one of the pilots had a hand held GPS unit on the flight deck! Didn't seem to cause any of them to spear off into the ether.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Londonish
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again, I think it depends on the airline..
Practically, there's no danger - as others have said, it's a passive system; they don't cross interfere in my experience, I frequently run 2 gps systems in a glider cockpit. I'm fairly sure the average airliner is using GPS somewhere.
I suspect the other issue is that the 'powers' might not like the idea of the SLF keeping such tabs on what they're up to.
Practically, there's no danger - as others have said, it's a passive system; they don't cross interfere in my experience, I frequently run 2 gps systems in a glider cockpit. I'm fairly sure the average airliner is using GPS somewhere.
I suspect the other issue is that the 'powers' might not like the idea of the SLF keeping such tabs on what they're up to.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: EGBJ Gloucester
Age: 40
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this not why we have EM interference regulations to prevent a product from being released onto the market unless it is (a) able to withstand a reasonable amount of external EM noise, and (b) doesn't generate an unreasonable amount of EM noise itself?
It is just one of those things.
The jury is still out so to be on the safe side they ban everthing that may cause a problem. Try taking a tv or radio to a hospital for patient use and you will be required to have it chcked for EM interference and a sticker placed on it to say it is approved.
The one I always like is watching FAs jump on people using their mobile whilst on board or on the aero bridge. Then suddenly QF brands some of their flights Cityflyer and the ability to have your phone on until door close is a FEATURE. Go figure.
Look outside the window at the refueller with his/her two way radio strapped on whilst refuelling...
The jury is still out so to be on the safe side they ban everthing that may cause a problem. Try taking a tv or radio to a hospital for patient use and you will be required to have it chcked for EM interference and a sticker placed on it to say it is approved.
The one I always like is watching FAs jump on people using their mobile whilst on board or on the aero bridge. Then suddenly QF brands some of their flights Cityflyer and the ability to have your phone on until door close is a FEATURE. Go figure.
Look outside the window at the refueller with his/her two way radio strapped on whilst refuelling...
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EMF
EMF is everywhere !!!...............we can't avoid it, tnxs to our ever constant quest for all things convenient we live constantly under/with EMF whether airborne or ground dwelling. Personally I feel that PED's do zip to aircraft tracking/communications capabilities. I for one have & still use multiple GPS units hand held & otherwise (two of which are installed within the A/C within my "office" & that includes digital & CDMA Mob Ph's although the capabilities of those ph's are marginal at times. 'ICURAS 2001 is spot on, look around at any airport there are two way radios everywhere as well as countless PED's on a persons person, (that kind of sounds silly
) with the red rats allowance of Mob Ph's when flying cityflyer right up 'till the close of doors where others say noway!:-)
Can't imagine the amount of Mob Ph's left on in pax personal bags aboard today's modern airline.
Also funny how hospitals have signs everywhere saying no Mob Ph's esspecially in & about ICU (Intensive Care Unit) but the doctors that I have anything to do with including nurses have a Mob Ph close at hand & use them right beside very sensitive monitoring equipt, anyway like they say if in doubt...........don't !
Capt Wally
) with the red rats allowance of Mob Ph's when flying cityflyer right up 'till the close of doors where others say noway!:-)Can't imagine the amount of Mob Ph's left on in pax personal bags aboard today's modern airline.
Also funny how hospitals have signs everywhere saying no Mob Ph's esspecially in & about ICU (Intensive Care Unit) but the doctors that I have anything to do with including nurses have a Mob Ph close at hand & use them right beside very sensitive monitoring equipt, anyway like they say if in doubt...........don't !
Capt Wally
Incurable Romantic
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Nr ABX (NSW)
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to say that whilst I was unsure of the possible effect using the GPS may have on the A/C systems,I could not help but be impressed by the technology these little units incorporate.apparently the unit this guy was using cost under $500.00 but came fully loaded with a (Jeppesen?) database and can be configured for 50 tracks with up to 3000 waypoints on each,makes me think how long before the pilot in a commercial jet becomes an observer instead of controller?
Imagine a homer simpson like character (and that maybe all airlines will get if they continue to erode pay and conditions) in command of a long haul flight?
Fire in engine number 1,which button do I push! DOH!!
Imagine a homer simpson like character (and that maybe all airlines will get if they continue to erode pay and conditions) in command of a long haul flight?
Fire in engine number 1,which button do I push! DOH!!
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: AUS
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nigel,
If you had passed your concern onto a cabin crew member, they would most likely have gone to the flight deck and asked the techies if - use of a portable GPS unit was OK. The Techies would have consulted the applicable manual (....use of electronic devices in cabin) and found words to the effect of ...GPS recievers along with pocket calculators and electric shavers may be used at any time.
No need for worry as the 'Airshow' gives a pretty good indication of present position along flight path etc.
Another section of same manual says that GPS's may only be used After the seat belt sign has been turned off after departure until Top of Descent.
(But That is QF manuals for you.) Always more than one correct answer.
If you had passed your concern onto a cabin crew member, they would most likely have gone to the flight deck and asked the techies if - use of a portable GPS unit was OK. The Techies would have consulted the applicable manual (....use of electronic devices in cabin) and found words to the effect of ...GPS recievers along with pocket calculators and electric shavers may be used at any time.
No need for worry as the 'Airshow' gives a pretty good indication of present position along flight path etc.
Another section of same manual says that GPS's may only be used After the seat belt sign has been turned off after departure until Top of Descent.
(But That is QF manuals for you.) Always more than one correct answer.
Last edited by Back Seat Driver; 7th Dec 2006 at 22:47. Reason: More info