Newbie pilot looking for advice (NZ)
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Newbie pilot looking for advice (NZ)
Hi all,
I've been lurking on these forums for some time to get a feel for the place, and it seems most people on here know what they're talking about. So I'd like to pick your brains.
First, my situation:
I recently started a course that covers PPL, CPL, IFR and C-Cat at a well known provider, but one which seems to be held in rather low esteem ("sausage factory" I think you call it
). However I haven't had any issues with them so far, so I'm happy to stick with them for the time being.
From what I can tell, hours of experience matters more than anything else in this industry (to a point), so I figured even if though it may not be training of as high a quality as a smaller school, I still get 300 hours which I don't have to pay until I start earning money.
I've always loved flying, and have been working in a reasonably well paid for my age (20), but rather tedious IT job, so I decided to ditch it and learn to fly instead. I have around $25k of my own money saved which I can use once the student loan runs out.
Second: What do I do next?
How likely is it that a say, 23 year old with 400 hours experience and C-Cat would get a job flying? Paid well enough to cover rent? Would a small carrier or tourism operation have any interest? How many hours would it take before trying my luck with a regional jet?
Am I better off trying my luck in another country? Which one? It sounds like we have an excess of pilots in this country, despite whatever the flying schools tell you.
Any advice, suggestions, tips anyone has would be much appreciated
I've been lurking on these forums for some time to get a feel for the place, and it seems most people on here know what they're talking about. So I'd like to pick your brains.
First, my situation:
I recently started a course that covers PPL, CPL, IFR and C-Cat at a well known provider, but one which seems to be held in rather low esteem ("sausage factory" I think you call it
). However I haven't had any issues with them so far, so I'm happy to stick with them for the time being.From what I can tell, hours of experience matters more than anything else in this industry (to a point), so I figured even if though it may not be training of as high a quality as a smaller school, I still get 300 hours which I don't have to pay until I start earning money.
I've always loved flying, and have been working in a reasonably well paid for my age (20), but rather tedious IT job, so I decided to ditch it and learn to fly instead. I have around $25k of my own money saved which I can use once the student loan runs out.
Second: What do I do next?
How likely is it that a say, 23 year old with 400 hours experience and C-Cat would get a job flying? Paid well enough to cover rent? Would a small carrier or tourism operation have any interest? How many hours would it take before trying my luck with a regional jet?
Am I better off trying my luck in another country? Which one? It sounds like we have an excess of pilots in this country, despite whatever the flying schools tell you.
Any advice, suggestions, tips anyone has would be much appreciated
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If where you are training is working for you then stay there for the time being. If you start to have doubts get out ASAP because your first job is more than likley to be with the organisation you did most of your training with (Most schools will "look after thier own"). You will be able to better judge for yourself how you stand by the time you have finished PPL/start of CPL but if all the students a couple of years ahead of you vanish into nothing and none of your instructors move on in that time you might have to consider your future prospects at the said place and move on.
If you have 400-500hrs most of the charter/scenic guys will have a look at you but have you havnt had any luck by about 1000hrs then you will find it next to impossible to get a charter job (too much experience) and your only way to the airlines will be thru mulit-instructing. (So make sure the school has twins).
Doesnt really matter where you train, with the big schools there is more of you so you will find yourself 'having a mate' here there and everywhere.
Your first job will be part-time which really means anything but you can expect to earn about $100-$150 per week. Id suggest saving about 10-15k to live on thru this time unless you can work elsewhere part-time.
Yes there are an excess of new CPL's here but your break will come, the tough one will be getting the first twin job.
Havnt been overseas but I am under the impression Aussie and Africa are the places to go for GA jobs (other may care to comment).
To get a job flying turbo props in NZ you will need about 200hrs Multi with about 1000TT. To get a Jet job in NZ you will need about 3000hrs with about 1500 on turbo props. All in all about 10years from starting out to ending up on a jet.
Things can happen quicker if your prepared to go overseas but coming home wont always be so straight foward (i.e Air Nelson want 50hrs recent NZ time)
Any Advice?
Take the first job you get offered and the importance of twin time cannot be over emphasised. Take risk and move town/country (9/10 times it will pay off), and dont piss others off. There are many examples out there of those who have and where they stand stuck now is a testament to that bit of advice.
GoodLuck
If you have 400-500hrs most of the charter/scenic guys will have a look at you but have you havnt had any luck by about 1000hrs then you will find it next to impossible to get a charter job (too much experience) and your only way to the airlines will be thru mulit-instructing. (So make sure the school has twins).
Doesnt really matter where you train, with the big schools there is more of you so you will find yourself 'having a mate' here there and everywhere.
Your first job will be part-time which really means anything but you can expect to earn about $100-$150 per week. Id suggest saving about 10-15k to live on thru this time unless you can work elsewhere part-time.
Yes there are an excess of new CPL's here but your break will come, the tough one will be getting the first twin job.
Havnt been overseas but I am under the impression Aussie and Africa are the places to go for GA jobs (other may care to comment).
To get a job flying turbo props in NZ you will need about 200hrs Multi with about 1000TT. To get a Jet job in NZ you will need about 3000hrs with about 1500 on turbo props. All in all about 10years from starting out to ending up on a jet.
Things can happen quicker if your prepared to go overseas but coming home wont always be so straight foward (i.e Air Nelson want 50hrs recent NZ time)
Any Advice?
Take the first job you get offered and the importance of twin time cannot be over emphasised. Take risk and move town/country (9/10 times it will pay off), and dont piss others off. There are many examples out there of those who have and where they stand stuck now is a testament to that bit of advice.
GoodLuck
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Aviation is a small world
With current numbers of NZ CPLs in the low thousands and two degrees of separation between everyone in NZ aviation, I can't agree more with flyby_kiwi's comment about keeping your nose clean.
Always be seen to be obeying the boss, CFI, aircraft flightmanual, or whoever is in charge. If you have a problem, then take the-powers-that-be a coffee and donut and have a chat.
ECT?
Always be seen to be obeying the boss, CFI, aircraft flightmanual, or whoever is in charge. If you have a problem, then take the-powers-that-be a coffee and donut and have a chat.
ECT?
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ECT.....what a wonderful existence that is!!!!....your joking right!!!!?????because if thats the way you live your life...you need to get a one..PB
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Thanks for the heads up
Heya pakeha-boy, thanks for the heads-up.
If I want to step off the planet, or ruin my flying career, I'll follow your advice. Right now I have more flying and fun than I can handle, and it all fits within my Christian morals.
I know of a poor sucker who just ruined his flying career with his big mouth. I bet he now wishes that he had taken a look at the big picture. LocoDriver, ZK-DAN, and jfypilot152 will back me up on this one.
Cheers,
ECT?
If I want to step off the planet, or ruin my flying career, I'll follow your advice. Right now I have more flying and fun than I can handle, and it all fits within my Christian morals.
I know of a poor sucker who just ruined his flying career with his big mouth. I bet he now wishes that he had taken a look at the big picture. LocoDriver, ZK-DAN, and jfypilot152 will back me up on this one.
Cheers,
ECT?
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Funny how things change when you travel offshore... during all my years flying in Europe, I never had to kow-tow to anybody. Said what I thought, and if the Chief Pilot/Fleet Manager or whatever didn't agree with me, we simply left it at that and got on with the job. No grudges were held, and a frank exchange of views was encouraged - within reason. Worked for me, ended up as a training captain. PB and Haughtney have probably got similar stories.
Back here in NZ, it is brown-nose city. Air Nelson is just the tip of the iceberg... even just trying to get a bit of ad-hoc instructing work is an exercise in futility. The old boys network is alive and well, and instructors and CFIs are either scared you will take their flying, or scared you will show them up. They would rather die than allow experienced people near their students, I suppose because it dents their authority or, more likely, their egos. A few exceptions to that on this forum, though.
So PB is right, but sadly, so is ECT, in NZ at any rate. Such is our parochial attitude in this country. From the pack of jobsworths in the CAA to the regionals to the aero clubs... small-mindedness rules (with the aforementioned exceptions).
Oh, and ECT -
Good for you, firstly for having them, and secondly, for saying so. Admirable.
Back here in NZ, it is brown-nose city. Air Nelson is just the tip of the iceberg... even just trying to get a bit of ad-hoc instructing work is an exercise in futility. The old boys network is alive and well, and instructors and CFIs are either scared you will take their flying, or scared you will show them up. They would rather die than allow experienced people near their students, I suppose because it dents their authority or, more likely, their egos. A few exceptions to that on this forum, though.
So PB is right, but sadly, so is ECT, in NZ at any rate. Such is our parochial attitude in this country. From the pack of jobsworths in the CAA to the regionals to the aero clubs... small-mindedness rules (with the aforementioned exceptions).
Oh, and ECT -
my Christian morals
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ECT....mate,I,m not talking about being an "ARSE"...that will get you fired anywhere in the world....I,m talking about standing up for whats right in a Professional manner and not having to suck someones "old-fella" just to get or do whats right!!!
I dont subscribe to some of your values,thats obvious,but in the same tone...I certainly dont knock you for your beliefs,thats your choice and good onya..............but in the 26 yrs Ive been flying I have seen "sucking up" take several pilots lives....no ****e.......
Be yourself,...we all know how to show professional demeaner,...nothing wrong with it....I force myself everyday...especially when things arent going my way....but to suck up,just to get a job and maintain the status quo.....FORGET IT.....I WAS LOOKING WHEN I FOUND THIS JOB,AND I,M STILL LOOKING.......ECT....best of luck to you and your christian thingy...PB
I dont subscribe to some of your values,thats obvious,but in the same tone...I certainly dont knock you for your beliefs,thats your choice and good onya..............but in the 26 yrs Ive been flying I have seen "sucking up" take several pilots lives....no ****e.......
Be yourself,...we all know how to show professional demeaner,...nothing wrong with it....I force myself everyday...especially when things arent going my way....but to suck up,just to get a job and maintain the status quo.....FORGET IT.....I WAS LOOKING WHEN I FOUND THIS JOB,AND I,M STILL LOOKING.......ECT....best of luck to you and your christian thingy...PB
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The problem with having christian morals, when you're trying to get a first job in kiwi GA, is that the bible has a pretty harsh outlook on the issue of bending over and taking a big fat broomstick up the @rse. 
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Hatfork,
I wouldn't recommend running off to Australia for a job. If you think that NZ GA system is screwed up, you should see how many pilot wannabees there are in Oz. In saying that though there are a few more opportunities to be had especially if you don't mind living in butt fck Idaho. The flying is great and the other bum pilots you meet on the way are generally good blokes.
The rules have changed in Oz, so you can't qualify for the dole til living in country for 2 years. I flew over in Aussie for 5 years, but never found a full time job. I was either a contractor or a casual pilot. At one stage the dole supported my drinking fund.
Australia is a country of feast or famine and it is the same in aviation. My first job I was lucky enough to be johnny on the spot, i left on a promise that turned sour after driving 5000km. would I change things if I could? No way. In 2000 i logged 78 hours, but I had a great time. Now I have some great stories and seen most of Australia.
10 years after my first flight and around 4000hours I'm flying jets for Air NZ.
Which ever road you go down, don't rush it. If you really want to fly jets you will. But make the most of what ever you are doing. GA is the best flying you'll ever do!
If you do decide to go overseas you wont regret it, even if it is just for the experience. But make yourself as marketable as you can. Have atleast 500hours TT, get some time on C206s, which are the work horse of GA and if you can get time on a C208 even better especially for Africa.
Good Luck, follow your dreams, and do what you want, cos you're in an airline for a long time.
I wouldn't recommend running off to Australia for a job. If you think that NZ GA system is screwed up, you should see how many pilot wannabees there are in Oz. In saying that though there are a few more opportunities to be had especially if you don't mind living in butt fck Idaho. The flying is great and the other bum pilots you meet on the way are generally good blokes.
The rules have changed in Oz, so you can't qualify for the dole til living in country for 2 years. I flew over in Aussie for 5 years, but never found a full time job. I was either a contractor or a casual pilot. At one stage the dole supported my drinking fund.
Australia is a country of feast or famine and it is the same in aviation. My first job I was lucky enough to be johnny on the spot, i left on a promise that turned sour after driving 5000km. would I change things if I could? No way. In 2000 i logged 78 hours, but I had a great time. Now I have some great stories and seen most of Australia.
10 years after my first flight and around 4000hours I'm flying jets for Air NZ.
Which ever road you go down, don't rush it. If you really want to fly jets you will. But make the most of what ever you are doing. GA is the best flying you'll ever do!
If you do decide to go overseas you wont regret it, even if it is just for the experience. But make yourself as marketable as you can. Have atleast 500hours TT, get some time on C206s, which are the work horse of GA and if you can get time on a C208 even better especially for Africa.
Good Luck, follow your dreams, and do what you want, cos you're in an airline for a long time.
To the original post, my comment would be to forget that C cat and do the MEIFR. When I was working for an Auckland GA operator we hired people who do the sort of flying we did i.e. MEIFR. We also hired people with only 300 hours. My other word of caution is that AFS is not held in high regard for a reason. From my personal experiece, I don't believe they offer much in the way of practical flying instruction. If you want examples then PM me.
As for the brown nosing thing....
Brown nosing won't get you all that far either. I think there is a big, yet subtle difference between sucking up to someone and just being a Good Bastard.
As for the brown nosing thing....
Brown nosing won't get you all that far either. I think there is a big, yet subtle difference between sucking up to someone and just being a Good Bastard.
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Pakeha-boy ECT is a former student of mine, full of enthusiam! dont be too hard on the lad, he is a chip of the block I think(mine!) we also share the same Christian thingy.
It is refreshing to find a pleasant ,motivated pilot, even if he pinched some of my work!- I try to look after my students, and give them a bit of a start
in the commercial world.! This one hit the ground running....!!
You are both right, Integrity in aviation is an absolute must, so is dedication, motivation and application of skills.
Remoak, you too are so right. A lot of places, instructors etc are scared of experienced ones on their turf. Well, I am a CFI, and try to break that mould.
Currently, I am getting a 737 jockey back in the instructing saddle part time, because I believe his realtime IFR, and instructing skills, would be far better than mine, to teach IFR students. Organisations who do not realise this, or are scared of it, need to look long and hard at what they do. They are also unsure of their own ability,lacking confidence, and scared of experience.
I try and surround myself with experienced people in different fields, I specialize in certain types of training, beacuse I have lot of experience in these areas, and use other instructors in other areas.
It helps to build good pilots, thats what it is all about.
There is so much talent out there, waiting to be tapped into.
I am a career instructor, therefore pose no threat to others wanting to further
their career, and I enjoy helping them into a commercial role.
I am also concerned about instructors who lack teaching skills, and only do it to build hours... but thats another story.........
Cheers, keep up the good work.
It is refreshing to find a pleasant ,motivated pilot, even if he pinched some of my work!- I try to look after my students, and give them a bit of a start
in the commercial world.! This one hit the ground running....!!
You are both right, Integrity in aviation is an absolute must, so is dedication, motivation and application of skills.
Remoak, you too are so right. A lot of places, instructors etc are scared of experienced ones on their turf. Well, I am a CFI, and try to break that mould.
Currently, I am getting a 737 jockey back in the instructing saddle part time, because I believe his realtime IFR, and instructing skills, would be far better than mine, to teach IFR students. Organisations who do not realise this, or are scared of it, need to look long and hard at what they do. They are also unsure of their own ability,lacking confidence, and scared of experience.
I try and surround myself with experienced people in different fields, I specialize in certain types of training, beacuse I have lot of experience in these areas, and use other instructors in other areas.
It helps to build good pilots, thats what it is all about.
There is so much talent out there, waiting to be tapped into.
I am a career instructor, therefore pose no threat to others wanting to further
their career, and I enjoy helping them into a commercial role.
I am also concerned about instructors who lack teaching skills, and only do it to build hours... but thats another story.........
Cheers, keep up the good work.
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Loco.......your point is well taken,...I like you have seen the ugly side of aviation and it seems to be getting worse....took a couple of intro flights out of ardmore a couple of months ago...played the idiot role ,asked all the dumb questions...... walked away shaking my head.....I know it didnt used to be like this....flight wise,they did a great job,...but the "air" thats surrounds it.......unhealthy!!!...
I personally wish these blokes all the best,and certainly hope it all works out for them.....we just seem to be losing something...just cant put a finger on it......getting old sucks!!!PB
I personally wish these blokes all the best,and certainly hope it all works out for them.....we just seem to be losing something...just cant put a finger on it......getting old sucks!!!PB
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It seems to be 99% of the lads at the top of that ladder are continually bitchin about those awaiting to get onto the bottom rung, about standards, airmanship or lack thereof, mis-handling etc. But none of them are muckin in to sort things out, bitchin is all they are good at! 
What makes it worse is that many of those most vocal have made all the same mistakes.
So heres a simple solution, why not get off your lazy airline asses
and give something back by getting involved in some of the aeroclubs and flying schools. 
Word of warning though
Go in to your local club tellin everyone how big your C%$# is and the reception im sure will be a little chilly, no good tellin someone how useless they are also
but a few experiances passed on im sure will go along way to building a few bridges and helping a few good people out.
What makes it worse is that many of those most vocal have made all the same mistakes.So heres a simple solution, why not get off your lazy airline asses
and give something back by getting involved in some of the aeroclubs and flying schools. Word of warning though
Go in to your local club tellin everyone how big your C%$# is and the reception im sure will be a little chilly, no good tellin someone how useless they are also
but a few experiances passed on im sure will go along way to building a few bridges and helping a few good people out.
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Speeds High
That's the whole point. I, for one, have tried to do that, but the clubs and schools around where I live just don't want to know, for the reasons stated above.
The CAA have identified a serious shortage of experienced instructors, particularly those able to teach multi IFR. However, the industry seems unwilling to use people like myself, who just want to help out and don't really care about the hours or the money. I have over 9000 hours of real-world airline experience... and no way to pass it on to new pilots.
The other problem is that the CAA are somewhat less than helpful to those of us trying to get our instructing credentials back. A few months ago, I was talking with an ASL examiner, asking what the standards were for a ME instructors rating... the answer I got was that there is no written standard or specification for the check... you just have to satisfy the guy that you are up to his standard... but of course you don't know what that standard is, because he is making it up as he goes along! Worse still, the examiner has no real-world airline or hard IFR experience. The whole system needs a radical overhaul.
I know what it is like to be a hungry instructor, and I get the reasons why they don't welcome us airline guys back into the fold... but it is unbelievably short-sighted. The industry needs to wake up... but I'm not holding my breath!
It's like there is an invisible barrier between all our experience and knowledge, and the student pilot. I wonder how the students feel about that...
But none of them are muckin in to sort things out, bitchin is all they are good at!... So heres a simple solution, why not get off your lazy airline asses and give something back by getting involved in some of the aeroclubs and flying schools.
and give something back by getting involved in some of the aeroclubs and flying schools.
The CAA have identified a serious shortage of experienced instructors, particularly those able to teach multi IFR. However, the industry seems unwilling to use people like myself, who just want to help out and don't really care about the hours or the money. I have over 9000 hours of real-world airline experience... and no way to pass it on to new pilots.
The other problem is that the CAA are somewhat less than helpful to those of us trying to get our instructing credentials back. A few months ago, I was talking with an ASL examiner, asking what the standards were for a ME instructors rating... the answer I got was that there is no written standard or specification for the check... you just have to satisfy the guy that you are up to his standard... but of course you don't know what that standard is, because he is making it up as he goes along! Worse still, the examiner has no real-world airline or hard IFR experience. The whole system needs a radical overhaul.
I know what it is like to be a hungry instructor, and I get the reasons why they don't welcome us airline guys back into the fold... but it is unbelievably short-sighted. The industry needs to wake up... but I'm not holding my breath!
It's like there is an invisible barrier between all our experience and knowledge, and the student pilot. I wonder how the students feel about that...
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Remoak,
Find an 'A' Cat flight examiner, talk to him /her, and you will find it can be done quite quickly.
Any probs, send me a pm.-(you might even be in my area.?????)
I agree totally, thats why I am getting a 737 jock to help out.........
there are some airline pilots who love instructing in GA, some years ago, I saw a friend (767 Capt) do a trial flight for a young lad in a C150,- still dressed in his Air Nz Uniform, and he was just as professional and enthusiastic with the student in the 150, as he was in the 767.-- The student is now a PPL.!
Pakeha-boy, wished I could have done your 'trial flight'!
Cheers guys.
Find an 'A' Cat flight examiner, talk to him /her, and you will find it can be done quite quickly.
Any probs, send me a pm.-(you might even be in my area.?????)
I agree totally, thats why I am getting a 737 jock to help out.........
there are some airline pilots who love instructing in GA, some years ago, I saw a friend (767 Capt) do a trial flight for a young lad in a C150,- still dressed in his Air Nz Uniform, and he was just as professional and enthusiastic with the student in the 150, as he was in the 767.-- The student is now a PPL.!
Pakeha-boy, wished I could have done your 'trial flight'!
Cheers guys.
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Remoak
Well at least you tried, which is much more than most so good onya.
Sometimes it takes a while, and spinning a yarn at the bar is usually the best education (in more than one way )
Well at least you tried, which is much more than most so good onya.
Sometimes it takes a while, and spinning a yarn at the bar is usually the best education (in more than one way
)
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I can't believe what I'm reading here - why in the hell are these GA schools re-employing already well paid jet jocks as instructors again, while you have other instructors going hungry trying to get a job ??!!! Words fail me.
LocoDriver should be ashamed of himself - he's robbing a young person/s a flying career. Let the jet jockeys stay where they are, earning their squillions, and leave the GA scene to the wannabees (there are plenty of them) - and don't give me that crud that they have more to offer, there isn't enough MEIFR instructors around - little wonder, you're employing the fat cats who suddenly find themselves bored with their airline flying, and want that adrenalin rush again. It must be tough for them...
Fancy that......taking a young student in a C150 for his TIF with an instructor in his ANZ uniform - OH PLEASE !!!! what a wally !!
And yes, how do ANZ view this ???
LocoDriver should be ashamed of himself - he's robbing a young person/s a flying career. Let the jet jockeys stay where they are, earning their squillions, and leave the GA scene to the wannabees (there are plenty of them) - and don't give me that crud that they have more to offer, there isn't enough MEIFR instructors around - little wonder, you're employing the fat cats who suddenly find themselves bored with their airline flying, and want that adrenalin rush again. It must be tough for them...
Fancy that......taking a young student in a C150 for his TIF with an instructor in his ANZ uniform - OH PLEASE !!!! what a wally !!
And yes, how do ANZ view this ???