GA Twin Replacements?
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GA Twin Replacements?
Hi,
Just doing some research for an operator that is considering aircraft replacement options for the future as the current fleet isn't getting any younger. Need to provide the same performance (or better) then C310 and PA31.
Has anyone had any experiences with the new Vulanair P68C or turbine Viator?
What are other peoples thoughts on what will replace these aircraft in the next 5-10 years?
Just doing some research for an operator that is considering aircraft replacement options for the future as the current fleet isn't getting any younger. Need to provide the same performance (or better) then C310 and PA31.
Has anyone had any experiences with the new Vulanair P68C or turbine Viator?
What are other peoples thoughts on what will replace these aircraft in the next 5-10 years?
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How about the DA 42 Twin Star? Already in use in a few flying schools around Asia.
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DA-42 is probably a bit light on for seats and payload for a good charter workhorse.
Its also a little bit "plastic" for the places and customers that will be using it and the maintanence facilities available to fix it.
No doubt it looks great for private and flying school roles.
Its also a little bit "plastic" for the places and customers that will be using it and the maintanence facilities available to fix it.
No doubt it looks great for private and flying school roles.
As far as I know, the Reims F406 is still in production. Probably more of a PA31 replacement+upgrade than a C310 replacement. 
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Good old Conquest is a fair sort of ship. would certainly replace all those you mentioned with quite a perfomance increase. otherwise, I would be tempted to look at a C208 caravan. better uplift, same speed, shorter take off landing, about the same fuel consumption, turbine reliability. downside is initial purchase price, one engine (although far better reliability and dispatch rate).
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cost
tell him to expect to pay 10 times or more than the existing ones cost him, and high finance and insurance costs. He will need to get high hourly returns, and a lot of hours.
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why buy tired old bangers from the Septics?
http://www.gippsaero.com/ZoneID=141.htm
Gippsland Aeronautics Airvan, now certified in Europe. Cost of a C206 with 8 seats.
http://www.gippsaero.com/ZoneID=141.htm
Gippsland Aeronautics Airvan, now certified in Europe. Cost of a C206 with 8 seats.
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Replacements
A new Baron could replace the 310, and a C90 king air would replace the chieftain. Look at prices.
There are other options and some more coming. The PAC 750 is interesting.
There are other options and some more coming. The PAC 750 is interesting.
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I can't for the life of me see the GA8 replacing any twin I have ever flown.
good replacement for the 206/7 but pretty slow.
What ever happened to the Explorer 350?. did it ever get off the ground and into the certification process?.
good replacement for the 206/7 but pretty slow.
What ever happened to the Explorer 350?. did it ever get off the ground and into the certification process?.
Ha, Ha, I too would like to see an Airvan replace a twin!
They are only good for quick scenic flights and too slow to compete on long haul freight runs; a Chieftain would be better. They say in their advertising that everyone gets a window seat, but they forget to mention that you don't get any leg room with your prescious window!
They are only good for quick scenic flights and too slow to compete on long haul freight runs; a Chieftain would be better. They say in their advertising that everyone gets a window seat, but they forget to mention that you don't get any leg room with your prescious window!
There is a definite market sector for a 10 seat size un preasurised piston twin, Particularly on 100=160 nm routes, where the benefits of pressurisation and turbine engines would not make up for the costs.
I hear a few companies are lookign int designing a Chieftain replacement airframe between a pair of Thielert V8 350 hp diesels.
I hear a few companies are lookign int designing a Chieftain replacement airframe between a pair of Thielert V8 350 hp diesels.
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The PAC 750 is definitely worth a good hard look. Payload on short sectors capable of rivaling a twin otter and ten seats so it will definitely be a worthy PA31 replacement. It now has an underbelly pod also which doesn't seem to impinge on the cruise speed at all. Built like a tank with rumours of a MTOW increase too. If you can get past the single engine aspect it looks really attractive.
Viking Air in Canada is looking at putting the Twotter back into production as a series 400 with -34/35 engines. Only problem is the project is not supposed to get the go ahead until next year with first flights due in 2009.
Viking Air in Canada is looking at putting the Twotter back into production as a series 400 with -34/35 engines. Only problem is the project is not supposed to get the go ahead until next year with first flights due in 2009.
Grandpa Aerotart
There are already STCs for retrofitting 350hp V8 thielert diesels into C340, C414 and Beech Dukes. If it can be done for Cessna cabin class twins it will be STCed into Barons, C310 etc sooner or later.
Worldwide low time airframes are not uncommon and with sustained high fuel prices it would be a good retrofit in commercially operated aircraft. If however oil prices reduce over the next few years the way they did after the 70s oil shocks, which is at least as likely as not, then diesel technology will tend to go on the back burner again unless the affordability is realised by increased economies of scale. As it stands at the moment the technology is still expensive...a IO550 is half the price to buy and jet fuel is not that much cheaper than avgas...believe it or not avgas is still too cheap to drive a technological C change.
A retrofitted C414 or PA31 would still be cheaper, given a good quality basic airframe to retrofit into, than buying a new 10 seat diesel 'piston twin'...I remain to be convinced that a market exists to see a clean sheet aircraft in this class for that reason alone.
Worldwide low time airframes are not uncommon and with sustained high fuel prices it would be a good retrofit in commercially operated aircraft. If however oil prices reduce over the next few years the way they did after the 70s oil shocks, which is at least as likely as not, then diesel technology will tend to go on the back burner again unless the affordability is realised by increased economies of scale. As it stands at the moment the technology is still expensive...a IO550 is half the price to buy and jet fuel is not that much cheaper than avgas...believe it or not avgas is still too cheap to drive a technological C change.
A retrofitted C414 or PA31 would still be cheaper, given a good quality basic airframe to retrofit into, than buying a new 10 seat diesel 'piston twin'...I remain to be convinced that a market exists to see a clean sheet aircraft in this class for that reason alone.
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I don't think price differances between the fuels is going to be as much of an issue in the future, as the problem of avgas availability. there is currently one bowser in the goldfields, and quite a few miles between the next one, and it is miles off track from anywhere. In PNG, its almost imposible to get, and I think that its just going to get harder to get throughout regional Australia in the very near future.
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Thanks for the replies.
The idea of retro fitting turbines or other engines to low hour PA-31's C404 isn't really of interest. The number of low hour aircraft is getting few and far between and SID's, spar mods/inspections/replacements are becoming a big factor. A PA-31 with 20,000 hrs is a real and scary thought.
As for single engine turbine such as C208, PAC 750, PC 12, etc. They don't meet most contract requirements for twin engine. I appreciate they are great aircraft and my boss would love to run them but the clients have been brain washed by the marketing machine of the local RPT/Charter companies that single engine aircraft are unsafe. Some are now requesting 2 pilot ops on all flights which means co-pilots on Chieftains!
Conquests are great but as rare as hens teeth and if some one does want to part with one it won't be cheap. King Air is a bit pricey and a huge step up from running a fleet of piston twins to adjust your maintanence, ops, pilots, etc.
Back to my original question has anyone looked at the new Vulcanair line up? P68 that does 160-170kts with 5 PAX, 80l/hr? Cheaper then a new baron.
Their Viator is also an interesting machine. Twin RR (Allison) 250B-17C+ engines with 328 shp, 210 kts, 10 seats. Looks like a rehash of the Nomad? http://www.vulcanair.com.au/aircraft_Viator.html
WIZ you can pick up some gas at Leonora for a bargin at $500 a drum!!!
The idea of retro fitting turbines or other engines to low hour PA-31's C404 isn't really of interest. The number of low hour aircraft is getting few and far between and SID's, spar mods/inspections/replacements are becoming a big factor. A PA-31 with 20,000 hrs is a real and scary thought.
As for single engine turbine such as C208, PAC 750, PC 12, etc. They don't meet most contract requirements for twin engine. I appreciate they are great aircraft and my boss would love to run them but the clients have been brain washed by the marketing machine of the local RPT/Charter companies that single engine aircraft are unsafe. Some are now requesting 2 pilot ops on all flights which means co-pilots on Chieftains!
Conquests are great but as rare as hens teeth and if some one does want to part with one it won't be cheap. King Air is a bit pricey and a huge step up from running a fleet of piston twins to adjust your maintanence, ops, pilots, etc.
Back to my original question has anyone looked at the new Vulcanair line up? P68 that does 160-170kts with 5 PAX, 80l/hr? Cheaper then a new baron.
Their Viator is also an interesting machine. Twin RR (Allison) 250B-17C+ engines with 328 shp, 210 kts, 10 seats. Looks like a rehash of the Nomad? http://www.vulcanair.com.au/aircraft_Viator.html
WIZ you can pick up some gas at Leonora for a bargin at $500 a drum!!!
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Yeah, Bargain price, innit. 
For those interested, I did a little research on my own question about the explorer 350. seems the company was sold off to some north americans, and they have developed the turbine range. looking good. the 500T and 750T are worth a look. 4000lb useful load at 190 knts and proven turbine reliability.
have a look http://www.exploreraircraft.com/home.php
shame about the Brain washed clients. i have to deal with the same drama from the same type of clients. I'm lucky I can get around thier misinformed ideas.
For those interested, I did a little research on my own question about the explorer 350. seems the company was sold off to some north americans, and they have developed the turbine range. looking good. the 500T and 750T are worth a look. 4000lb useful load at 190 knts and proven turbine reliability.
have a look http://www.exploreraircraft.com/home.php
shame about the Brain washed clients. i have to deal with the same drama from the same type of clients. I'm lucky I can get around thier misinformed ideas.
There was a turbine PA-31 made it was call a T-1040. Not sure how well it sold.
Mining companies are a classic for this kind of stuff they tell operaters "you have to get new aircraft" but they don't want to pay new aircraft rates. If mining companies were fair dinkum about safety then their minimum requirement would be multi engine turbine!! However as noone in this country is prepared to pay for safety they will be forever flogging around in 30 year busted arse piston twin.
Mining companies are a classic for this kind of stuff they tell operaters "you have to get new aircraft" but they don't want to pay new aircraft rates. If mining companies were fair dinkum about safety then their minimum requirement would be multi engine turbine!! However as noone in this country is prepared to pay for safety they will be forever flogging around in 30 year busted arse piston twin.