Into wind for run-ups?

[jsmitty01]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the debate on whether to lean the mixture on the ground; I was amazed at the amount of posts which said to me that the basics aren't being taught at some schools. Now a question on another practice which is being taught differently depending on the training provider...

I was taught that parking into wind for the engine run-ups wasn't necessary and there was no discernable benefit. At other organisations I have flown at, even at the same GAAP, parking into wind was a rule which is written in stone. What were you taught?

[richie-rich]

this is an interesting question ! my school taught me to face the wind, power up and then Run up checks....

i am not sure but maybe an instructor can answer that....is it due to more intake of air into the engine ?

Richie

[Capt Wally]

airmanship :-)

........there are a few variables with regards to whether or not it's prudent to face an A/C into wind for any type of engine run ups. The wind strength would be one, if the breeze is light there would be no real advantage as to which way you face the A/C but if it where rather windy then it's good airmanship is nothing else to do all run ups into wind to keep the airflow doing it's best to keep an engine within it's temp limits, (esspecially turbo models) afterall that's the single biggest reason as to why it's taught that way (mostly ) in the first place, for efficent engine cooling under high power settings whilst stationary.

The other consideration is to point an A/C into wind in order to keep the controls surfaces from bouncing around off their stops, less damage in the long run besides at times the control column can bounce around like a miss guided crazed kid behind his dads car steering wheel causing some bruising to the hapless pilot all the while pushing & pulling at various engine controls within the cockpit:-)

At the end of the day consider those around you for any engine runups as well as the engine itself. The amount of times i've seen/heard a pilot run up an engine within very close proximity of another causing , that's airmanship.

Capt Wally:-)

[the wizard of auz]

for efficent engine cooling under high power settings whilst stationary.

Actually, the amount of air moving through the cowl at high powers settings is going to be controlled by the airflow through the prop, and the difference between into wind and out of wind would be hardly noticable.
The into wind position is going to be most benificial at low power settings, where the airflow through the prop is going to be minimal.
All the control surfaces being into wind is also a valid reason, as they are designed to have airflow going over them from one direction.

[tlf]

Geez it's amazing the crap that's being taught in flying schools these days. I guess you have to expect that if you take a sprog CPL give him an instructor rating and make him think he's Gods gift to aviation when in reality he/she knows squat!

Cooling airflow through the cowl as someone said is going to be handled by the spinning propellor.
Controls may blow around in the wind but you should be able to prevent that through the yoke, use the gust lock if you have to.

OK Boys and girls, the real reason for pointing into the wind is that if you park in a tailwind with the engine(s) running you can guarantee that the prop(s) will pick up any debris that's on the ground near it causing damage.

sigh

[NOtimTAMs]

Some of the rules "cast in stone" are carryovers from the time when flying was mainly in taildraggers. Into wind is *always* a good idea in taildraggers.

With tricycle gear, there is less trouble of course with cross/tailwinds, but rather then have to concentrate on holding or stabilising bucking controls when doing run ups, into wind is sensible in stronger and gusting winds.

Of course the other oldie is "never taxi faster than a brisk walking pace", I understand mainly derived from the days when a wingman physically walked beside the aircraft and stabilised the wing of the early light taildraggers in gusty conditions. If we all taxied at a walking speed of about 5 km/hr it would take 12 minutes to taxi 1000m, at 10 km/hr about 6 minutes - fun backtracking delays on a lot of runways!!!! It's probably still trotted out to slow down newbies from taxying faster than they can coordinate the pedals.....

[training wheels]

I've just checked what Mr Google says about this ... engine cooling seems to be the consensus as to why run-ups should be done into wind.

http://4vfr.com/?goto=view_article&s...rticle_key=118

http://www.oaafly-in.com/oaawebsite85e/11ACPOM.htm

http://www.ufly.com/lessons/ground_operations.html

BTW, at 'busy' airfeilds without designated run-up bays, where's the best place to do the run-ups?

[jandakotpilot]

Parking a turbo aircraft into wind after shutdown is a great idea too not just for the benifit for the flight controls.

[Capt Wally]

...........excellent reference from what "training wheels" posted here seems that most agree facing into wind is about engine cooling of some discription & seeing as it's a good place to start such a habbit then it will benifit when & if that pilot goes on to fly turbines where into wind (where possible) is very much encouraged for a cooler start process, & as we all know (kero burners) it's the start process of a turbine engine that has the most long term effect on wear & tear................do it now & reap the bennifits by way of good airmanship for latter also.


...........yes one could install the gust lock to prevent controls from being buffeted around during an engine run up in windy conditions but is it not wise to remove such a devise before one even entertains the idea of flight, & that starts as we move the wheels !:-), besides some gust locks actually mask the magneto switches (deliberately) which are obviousaly needed as part of an engine runup. Re-installing the gust lock could set up a potential hazard far from that of the original subject matter here:-)

Capt Wally :-)

[Bula]

Guys what you will actually find, apart from the stone damage side of things, is that alot of this stuff develops from tail wheel aircraft. Runups into wind helps you keep directional control on the ground at high power settings. It also helps you plant the tail firmly down.

As for engine cooling, many engines do suffer from heat soaking when on the ground. The reason many flying schools teach into wind is because many of there will not have CHT's and therefore it is really hard to judge your engine temp.... similar as to why schools wait for the oil temp to be in the green arc..... is your cylinder head warm enough? So it is prudent for new pilots to enable as much flow as possible, especially when running those before takeoff checks on the hot days.

As for being airmanship.. well........................................................ ..................................

my two cents

[Chimbu chuckles]

Engine cooling taken care of by the prop?

Take a look at the shape of the prop blade between the hub and the edge of the cowl...say the first 15- 20+cm...it is round and has no aerodynamic properties.

The only air travelling through the cowl when the aircraft is stationary and at higher than idle power settings is that which is sucked through by the venturi effect of air flowing around the cowl and passed the cowl flaps, if fitted.

At idle/taxi power settings with the aircraft moving 'at a brisk walking pace' there may be little or no cooling airflow through the cowl.

Yes parking into any significant wind will help put more air through the cowl...although I suspect the strength of wind required to actually make a difference might be stronger than you'd want to be flying in in the first place.

As to wind effects on controls..ailerons excepted...think about how strong the wind flowing around the airframe from prop blast is at the various power settings is. Even at idle it would be 10kts probably. At typical 'mag check' power settings it would be closer to 30-40 kts. I doubt being parked in a 10 kt tailwind would make much difference.

The better question to ask is why pilots park in 'run up bays' to do their engine/prop checks in the first place.

I would suggest it is a habit that is formed in the first hours of learning to fly because students are deemed to be incapable of taxiing and doing runups concurrently. That is probably a reasonable premise but at some point in the training perhaps it needs reviewing.

It has been over 25 years since I have parked into wind, whether in a runup bay or not, and done a classic runup. The vast preponderance of experienced/commercial pilots do them on the run.

This is viewed as less than 'professional' by many instructors but when you think about engine cooling on the ground perhaps getting the aircraft off the ground in reasonably short order bares some consideration.

[Pinky the pilot]

The vast preponderance of experienced/commercial pilots do them on the run.

Exactly,Chuckles! The Instructor who did my 402 endorsement way back when said to me that he'd rather pay for a new set of brake shoes occasionally that a new set of props!!
And he was the owner of the aircraft.

[Fliegenmong]

Surely its an instrument check to see that the tuft of wool sticky taped to the windscreen is working properly

[Bula]

Chimbu Chuck,
I have to ask the question... if you overheat the brakes during taxi, what will you stop with near V1? Most (not all) brake pads on GA aircraft are tiny... are they going to be effective considering your only taking off once and not doing circuits?

Secondly, most pilots I know do their run ups prior to taxiing for their run/charter etc.... first thing in the morning. Runups on the run, especially at night, are often hazardous... head inside / head outside and all that stuff. As for air flow.... just have a good look at your oil temps and CHT's next time you do a stationary run-up.

I love the comment to save props, if you have your big hoofs on the brakes are you preventing alot of stone damage? Unless your are taxiing at Vr, then you wont need to worry about the brakes....... So where do you do your before takeoff checks... during rotate?

pinky just think... he's the owner.. of course h's not wanting to spend cash. He owns the bloody thing

[Chimbu chuckles]

Who said anything about taxiing against the brakes?

First flight of the day a full mag check and prop check while parked is not unreasonable...provided not parked on gravel and done efficiently...that means quickly...not cycling the props 3 or 4 time for no reason as an example...once is enough, twice is overkill unless the first was sticking. In a twin once through to feather at 1500 rpm is heaps...not sitting at 1700-2000 for several minutes while you check each mag and then cycle the prop to see an RPM drop and then reduce to 1500 rpm for the feather check. All you are doings is heating the engine up and learning not a lot.

Every other sector of the day does not require anything...where does it say you need to do a full runup before every flight?

Every subsequent flight of the day requires, at most, a quick dead mag check...even that you can do parked just before you shut down...not while taxiing out.

Pilots get in the habit of doing the full monty every sector because when they learned to fly they did it every flying lesson.

Even first flight of the day I do the checks 'on the run' but I slow down to a crawl on a long straight taxiway and then increase power the minimum amount required, say 1600 rpm, quick mag check and cycle the prop(s) once and then reduce power back to low idle. The aircraft doesn't have time to accelerate much so I don't wear out the brakes...and any forward movement reduces stone damage significantly. There is not a SINGLE stone chip on my Bonanza prop and there never has been.

You need to understand also that a mag check done at typical rpms around 1700 shows you NOTHING you wouldn't learn by doing the same check at 1000 rpm. If you want to test your ignition system thoroughly do it in cruise...select L and R and leave it sit for 20 seconds and listen. If everything is good it will run smoothly...if not you may have a magneto problem but more likely it is a plug problem..if you are blessed with an all cylinder monitor and know how to use it you will be able to decide which it is and direct the engineer at the end of the day. If you have a little plug fouling you will be as likely to detect it at 1000 rpm...but if you always taxi leaned you won't get plug fouling.

[scrambler]

I thought that one of the reasons that we cycled the prop to flush warm oil through the engine. What do we achieve by doing this on first startup whilst the engine is still cold? On the same subject I also learnt to warm the engine prior to running up for the mag checks, so again why do this cold?

[Chimbu chuckles]

It is to replace the cold oil in the prop hub with warm oil from the engine not to 'flush warm oil through the engine'...who said anything about not warming the engine up or doing the runups cold?

Read what is written not what you think is written.

[limpwindsock]

Park them into wind - The gust front of a thunderstorm will mean you find it where you left it.

Run them up into wind - Avoid stone damage, help cool the engine, help get some cool air circulating through the cabin, dont damage the door you have left open to let some breeze through.

Keep the controls into wind when taxiing, take-off and land into wind!

Try hot starting some aircraft ie C310 in temps above 40 degree's and you will know that 1-2 kts of headwind might just make the difference.

My two bobs worth

[A37575]

The vast preponderance of experienced/commercial pilots do them on the run

Try that in the RAAF and you would quite rightly be court-martialled for reckless and unprofessional behaviour. While I realise that in GA money is perceived as far more important than the tenets of good airmanship, the risks involved with stuffing around with run-ups during the taxiing are not worth the insurance penalty if you make a hash of things while concentrating on an instrument needle when you should be watching where you are going.

This business of a pilot rushing around just because it is a GA aircraft reminds me of a classic example of piss-poor airmanship at Essendon years ago. The RFDS Chieftain this bloke was taxiing had a 137 page roller-blind checklist installed on the coaming. It began with "Gidday." It was night time and raining and as the pilot was manoeuvering out of the RFDS lines he was busy scrolling through his checklist and was quite surprised when his wing tip clobbered another Chieftain. There was no fuss and bother from the chief pilot after all it was "just GA" and these little things happen sometimes.

Funny thing was, when the airlines had piston engines you never ever saw a DC4, DC3, Convair, Connies et al doing their engine run-ups while taxiing. The captain would have faced disciplinary action and even termination of employment.

As far as flying schools waiting for the oil temp to get into the green range before run, that is no more than a money making exercise. Certainly in the Lycomings in Cessna's in cold weather, the POH advises that the oil temp might not even register on the gauge until the aircraft is airborne. So yet another GA myth is destroyed but still the bogans of this industry believe them.

[captain_cranky]

Chuckles on the money as usual!
At the risk of sounding cynical I find it hard to believe that this sort of question and answer time and associated debate still exists in this day and age of Byronist aviation Nirvana.
The Great One is on record as having remedied all needs and deficiencies of 'grass roots' flying training to the Australian public in the CASA Annual Report of 2004/2005

Improved safety in flying training
Following analysis conducted within the Office of the Chief Executive Officer in early 2004 of General Aviation fatal accidents for the past decade, CASA identified the need to provide increased support for the flying training industry, particularly as a means of reducing the incidence of uncontrolled flight into terrain.
To address this need, CASA has formed a team of flying training specialist inspectors and created the Flying Training Industry Development Programme. In conjunction with the specialist inspectors, this programme will help the flying training industry identify issues adversely affecting flying training standards, and develop initiatives and programmes to address these issues.
CASA expects the following safety benefits will be achieved:
Training for and standardisation of Flying Operations Inspectors and Authorised Testing Officers will ensure appropriate pilot entry standards are understood and applied in a consistent manner on a national basis.
Industry will gain an enhanced understanding of the broader issues surrounding flying training standards and will demonstrate a greater acceptance of their responsibilities to maintain high standards in flying training.
By adopting a cooperative and collaborative approach, flying training industry participants will be encouraged to share concerns and issues with CASA and offer partnership-based solutions in a constructive manner.
Advice from the industry, combined with implementation of targeted programmes on a partnership basis, will deliver an enhanced overall safety climate in the flying training sector.
The Flying Training Role Specialists group was formed following announcements from CEO Bruce Byron that CASA is looking to improve our contribution to the flying training sector, and in the future will work closely with the Flying Training Industry Development Panel.
The CASA Deputy Chief Executive Officer and Chief Operating Officer, Mr Bruce Gemmell, has reported that the formation of the team and its role is a good example of a changed approach designed to achieve better aviation safety outcomes.
"CASA now has a clearly defined focus on passenger-carrying operations, with flying training a high priority. We can't expect safety at the top levels unless we ensure pilots are being trained and assessed properly right from the start."
Both students and experienced pilots rely on the quality of the training they receive to develop the skills and knowledge that keep them and their passengers safe, and making real improvements in this area is the group's major focus.
With specialists to be engaged in significant face-to-face contact with all subparts of the flying training industry, the training was designed to enable members to present a consistent, up to date and technically competent face to industry to ensure maximum credibility.
Flying training specialist group member Leonard Yates reported that the purpose of the week in Maitland was to standardise the group, ensure their flying skills were current and up to speed and look at how instructors should be trained and assessed.
"To do this we flew specific sequences in a Cessna 172, with specialists taking turns role-playing instructors and students.
"The ground component of the training involved looking at stalling and circuits in flying training assessment.
"We also received refresher training in emergency manoeuvre recovery on a Pitts Special aircraft, including inverted spins and other scenarios an authorised testing officer or flying instructor might find themselves in.
"For the group it was refresher training, making sure we are all current and confident in handling these situations.
"The outcome from the training was a united view about where we should be going in terms of projecting requirements for authorised testing officers and chief flying instructors.
"We worked solidly throughout the week finishing up around 10.30 each night with our laptops around the dinner table. I think I can speak for all of the group when I say that the training was invaluable and it gave us a terrific opportunity to bond as a team."

Surely you have seen and met these trained and capable Specialists out and about at your flying school or tarmac addressing all your questions and concerns jsmitty01? Or is this really a wind up Pete?