41 hours isn't enough experience to fly an A206G !!! ATSB
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41 hours isn't enough experience to fly an A206G !!! ATSB
Seems that 41 hours just isn't enough time on type!
Pilot Inexperience Causes crash
A LIGHT plane crash-landed in a lagoon in Queensland's Torres Strait because of the pilot's inexperience, an investigation has found.
The chartered Cessna was carrying six passengers to Mabuiag Island from Warraber Island in the Torres Strait on April 27 when it touched down, lost control, veered through a fence and careered into a lagoon.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) report released today said the pilot, whose identity was not revealed, suffered minor injuries.
None of the passengers was injured but the aircraft was substantially damaged.
The report found the plane had no mechanical defects and the pilot's limited experience flying the model of aircraft in the prevailing weather conditions had led to the accident.
"While the braking technique may have been a factor, it is more likely that the pilot's limited experience in crosswind conditions and on the aircraft type were the main factors that led to the runway excursion," it said.
The pilot had been working for the charter company for just under one month and had 312 hours flying experience but just 41 hours flying the A206G aircraft model.
Pilot Inexperience Causes crash
A LIGHT plane crash-landed in a lagoon in Queensland's Torres Strait because of the pilot's inexperience, an investigation has found.
The chartered Cessna was carrying six passengers to Mabuiag Island from Warraber Island in the Torres Strait on April 27 when it touched down, lost control, veered through a fence and careered into a lagoon.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) report released today said the pilot, whose identity was not revealed, suffered minor injuries.
None of the passengers was injured but the aircraft was substantially damaged.
The report found the plane had no mechanical defects and the pilot's limited experience flying the model of aircraft in the prevailing weather conditions had led to the accident.
"While the braking technique may have been a factor, it is more likely that the pilot's limited experience in crosswind conditions and on the aircraft type were the main factors that led to the runway excursion," it said.
The pilot had been working for the charter company for just under one month and had 312 hours flying experience but just 41 hours flying the A206G aircraft model.
Grandpa Aerotart
Well considering in PNG (even coastal) a new pilot would probably still be under line training at 41 hrs perhaps they're correct.
I fail to understand what part of 312TT/41 on type you could conceivably call experienced under any circumstances
Sounds to me like an innexperienced pilot who perhaps never got a great grasp of the basics
and this was not corrected by his first CP during the extensive line training that he should have been given but wasn't.
Just how fast was he travelling when he touched down if he had enough energy left to
Having crashed a month into his first job ATSB should be (and probably have been) looking very carefully at his flying school training records and the company C&Ting records and standards...he probably is only guilty of youthful overconfidence/enthusiasm...his CP is almost certainly guilty of cutting corners in training/not demanding a high enough standard.
I fail to understand what part of 312TT/41 on type you could conceivably call experienced under any circumstances
Sounds to me like an innexperienced pilot who perhaps never got a great grasp of the basics
and this was not corrected by his first CP during the extensive line training that he should have been given but wasn't.Just how fast was he travelling when he touched down if he had enough energy left to
touched down, lost control, veered through a fence and careered into a lagoon.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Sep 2006 at 07:14.
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Flying Training !
This is not the first and won't be the last accident that reflects poorly on the existing standards of flying training.
I know of some schools where the instructors won't go flying with a student to do to X/W circuits because they don't feel confident to do it themselves ! In some cases, they are the 2nd or 3rd generation of such pilots that had such instructors themselves!!
Basic stick and rudder skills are lacking across the board and this certainly shows when what should be a proficient new CPL holder jumps into the real world where the CP sets and maintains some standards.
I have said for many years that every such accident should, as part of the investigation, follow up where with with who the pilot involved did his/her training from basic upwards. I would be that some very interesting data would surface, but neither the ATSB or CASA seem to be interested (??)
I know of some schools where the instructors won't go flying with a student to do to X/W circuits because they don't feel confident to do it themselves ! In some cases, they are the 2nd or 3rd generation of such pilots that had such instructors themselves!!
Basic stick and rudder skills are lacking across the board and this certainly shows when what should be a proficient new CPL holder jumps into the real world where the CP sets and maintains some standards.
I have said for many years that every such accident should, as part of the investigation, follow up where with with who the pilot involved did his/her training from basic upwards. I would be that some very interesting data would surface, but neither the ATSB or CASA seem to be interested (??)
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All said and done, Mabuiag isn’t the easiest place to land at, especially with a bit of breeze from the wrong direction. Most people with 300hrs (regardless of training) would find the pulse up a tad going in there for the first few times.
Well, Bruce Byron has spoken strongly about his aim of making the upping of training standards a priority - has anyone seen evidence of this being practically applied yet? I hope it's going to be followed through on.
Although it's a common thing, apparently, I can't agree with the idea that a fresh CPL graduate with an instructor's course under their belt but no operational flying experience is the right person to be teaching the next generation of pilots.
Although it's a common thing, apparently, I can't agree with the idea that a fresh CPL graduate with an instructor's course under their belt but no operational flying experience is the right person to be teaching the next generation of pilots.
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DI
If that is the case, then I would have thought that the CP would have arranged sufficient trips there in order to "qualify" his pilot/s on the strip. Especially the case for a newby who may not be proficient in X/Ws to start with.
Training (or lack of) is all too often the problem these day, but few will admit it!
If that is the case, then I would have thought that the CP would have arranged sufficient trips there in order to "qualify" his pilot/s on the strip. Especially the case for a newby who may not be proficient in X/Ws to start with.
Training (or lack of) is all too often the problem these day, but few will admit it!
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Hmmm, 300 hrs, 40 on type and this guy has a runway excursion in a perfectly servicable aircraft. It doesn't matter how bad his training was - this guy should be driving nothing more complicated than a cab!
Grandpa Aerotart
Amen Rat...therein lays the problem...proper training, proper oversight.
I remember my first CP cutting me loose in the C185 in Chimbu with only about 100 hrs more TT.
The main difference was I had been given a crap load more exposure and training than this guy seems to have been given...just checked logbook 1 and there was 34 hrs of ICUS in the first 6 weeks and I remember doing at least that again in the RHS on area and airstrip famil. In the following month there was 10 more hours ICUS spread over 6 days while I flew command in between...this to get me operational into some of the harder airstrips...note I didn't say hardest strips, they came later again...having been limited to easy ones solo at first, even though had flown into the hard ones ICUS as loads dictated.
Remember this was averaging 12 minutes/sector..5 takeoffs and landings per hour. If anything its the sectors that count not the hours...always the hole in the 10 hrs ICUS MINIMUM requirements.
When Terry sent me out alone he limited my loads to 400kg (about 50 kgs less than MTOW) for another 50 hrs and left me in NO WAY uncertain as to his expectations. His exact words were "The FIRST time you sit forward in your seat and wonder what to do just turn around and come back...I may then do the trip but feel no pressure...I have more experience".
This is a CLASSIC example of the old saying 'if you think training is expensive try accidents".
I remember my first CP cutting me loose in the C185 in Chimbu with only about 100 hrs more TT.
The main difference was I had been given a crap load more exposure and training than this guy seems to have been given...just checked logbook 1 and there was 34 hrs of ICUS in the first 6 weeks and I remember doing at least that again in the RHS on area and airstrip famil. In the following month there was 10 more hours ICUS spread over 6 days while I flew command in between...this to get me operational into some of the harder airstrips...note I didn't say hardest strips, they came later again...having been limited to easy ones solo at first, even though had flown into the hard ones ICUS as loads dictated.
Remember this was averaging 12 minutes/sector..5 takeoffs and landings per hour. If anything its the sectors that count not the hours...always the hole in the 10 hrs ICUS MINIMUM requirements.
When Terry sent me out alone he limited my loads to 400kg (about 50 kgs less than MTOW) for another 50 hrs and left me in NO WAY uncertain as to his expectations. His exact words were "The FIRST time you sit forward in your seat and wonder what to do just turn around and come back...I may then do the trip but feel no pressure...I have more experience".
This is a CLASSIC example of the old saying 'if you think training is expensive try accidents".
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 19th Sep 2006 at 13:38.
His exact words were "The FIRST time you sit forward in your seat and wonder what to do just turn around and come back...I may then do the trip but feel no pressure...I have more experience".
This is a CLASSIC example of the old saying 'if you think training is expensive try accidents".
This is a CLASSIC example of the old saying 'if you think training is expensive try accidents".
"If you come back...you can keep walking!"
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i am of the opinion that hours dont give clear indicator of expearience surely 40 hours would be enough to learn to fly a single....
i think some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour 1000 times
i think some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour 1000 times
A number of far more experienced pilots have come to grief at Mabuiag, mostly off the eastern sea wall, some attempting ground loops etc (including a Coastwatch Islander some years ago). Mabuiag is not an airport for the inexperienced ... or faint of heart!
Knowing the "standards" of some ... many .... probably most .... Torres Strait operators, particularly those who employ inexperienced pilots under very questionable remuneration arrangements (one I heard of included "payment by the revenue mile flown"), I am surprised there are not many more serious accidents in the Straits.
Knowing the "standards" of some ... many .... probably most .... Torres Strait operators, particularly those who employ inexperienced pilots under very questionable remuneration arrangements (one I heard of included "payment by the revenue mile flown"), I am surprised there are not many more serious accidents in the Straits.
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Gentlemen ..................... and others.
If I recall correctly on the initial thread dealing with this crash, the pilot involved admitted his errors and received some excellent advise to learn from it then push ahead with his career.
It was apparent that his training and initial checking to line was at fault, something which has been correctly identified by some on this thread as rife in the industry.
So perhaps a little less huffing and puffing about experience and hours and degree of difficulty or not in flying a C206 and a little more thought how we as industry professionals can ensure the same doesn't happen again.
If I recall correctly on the initial thread dealing with this crash, the pilot involved admitted his errors and received some excellent advise to learn from it then push ahead with his career.
It was apparent that his training and initial checking to line was at fault, something which has been correctly identified by some on this thread as rife in the industry.
So perhaps a little less huffing and puffing about experience and hours and degree of difficulty or not in flying a C206 and a little more thought how we as industry professionals can ensure the same doesn't happen again.
Yes you did Bula and I know exactly what you mean!
PLovett, I doubt there would have been too much checking of any integrity. I recall seeing a C206 operated for some days if not a week or two, with a truck battery in the pod and auto jump cables used to start the engine.
Mabuiag is always a difficult one, 415 meters, sea at both ends - and mostly the two wind socks point at each other!
PLovett, I doubt there would have been too much checking of any integrity. I recall seeing a C206 operated for some days if not a week or two, with a truck battery in the pod and auto jump cables used to start the engine.
Mabuiag is always a difficult one, 415 meters, sea at both ends - and mostly the two wind socks point at each other!
Last edited by Torres; 20th Sep 2006 at 03:48.