Pilot wannabes, your industry needs you...
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Pilot wannabes, your industry needs you...
The recent thread on internships got me thinking.
As I'm sure many of you airline hopefuls are aware, there is a move these days for operators to erode terms and conditions which have been hard won by our predecessors. This includes things like making pilots pay for their type ratings, and in general a reduction in salaries and perks like staff travel. But also some very important, non-monetary conditions like duty or sector limits, minimum weekends off, quality of duty travel etc.
The reason airlines can get away with this, is that there is always an oversupply of pilots at the bottom end, and it often comes down to who is willing to step over their own grandmother (not to mention their fellow aviators) to get that next big break.
As a new entrant into the industry, you could be forgiven for being oblivious to all this (there's a time when all of us were), but the sooner you realise what you need to do, the better your collective futures will be. It starts with questioning the quality and value of your training, and as was discussed in the internship thread, it is NEVER acceptable for any operator to charge you to work for them. If they are making money from an operation when you are a productive member of the cockpit, they should be paying you. If they don't, go elsewhere.
Of course this only works if everyone adheres, hence the problems we all face. It's up to you as the up-and-coming airline employees to set your own limits, and educate those who are short-sighted. Talk to the old and wise about the history of pilot negotiations with various airlines (that doesn't include me yet, neither old nor wise), and make up your own mind. There's plenty of threads on PPRuNe about recent pay negotiations at Mount Cook and Eagle.
One last word of caution. Throughout your careers, you will come across negative, bitter, egotistical people. Don't listen to them, don't even bother arguing with them, they are lost causes. There are plenty of happy, positive people, and you'll find it so much easier if you join that group. Some people want to fly the big jets, others love bashing around in their little 19 seater and living in paradise, others still prefer the challenge of a job in GA. What ever you do, don't judge people by their job or their aspirations.
Happy flying, it's a great career, and worth the hard work.
Good luck
As I'm sure many of you airline hopefuls are aware, there is a move these days for operators to erode terms and conditions which have been hard won by our predecessors. This includes things like making pilots pay for their type ratings, and in general a reduction in salaries and perks like staff travel. But also some very important, non-monetary conditions like duty or sector limits, minimum weekends off, quality of duty travel etc.
The reason airlines can get away with this, is that there is always an oversupply of pilots at the bottom end, and it often comes down to who is willing to step over their own grandmother (not to mention their fellow aviators) to get that next big break.
As a new entrant into the industry, you could be forgiven for being oblivious to all this (there's a time when all of us were), but the sooner you realise what you need to do, the better your collective futures will be. It starts with questioning the quality and value of your training, and as was discussed in the internship thread, it is NEVER acceptable for any operator to charge you to work for them. If they are making money from an operation when you are a productive member of the cockpit, they should be paying you. If they don't, go elsewhere.
Of course this only works if everyone adheres, hence the problems we all face. It's up to you as the up-and-coming airline employees to set your own limits, and educate those who are short-sighted. Talk to the old and wise about the history of pilot negotiations with various airlines (that doesn't include me yet, neither old nor wise), and make up your own mind. There's plenty of threads on PPRuNe about recent pay negotiations at Mount Cook and Eagle.
One last word of caution. Throughout your careers, you will come across negative, bitter, egotistical people. Don't listen to them, don't even bother arguing with them, they are lost causes. There are plenty of happy, positive people, and you'll find it so much easier if you join that group. Some people want to fly the big jets, others love bashing around in their little 19 seater and living in paradise, others still prefer the challenge of a job in GA. What ever you do, don't judge people by their job or their aspirations.
Happy flying, it's a great career, and worth the hard work.
Good luck
Last edited by Cloud Cutter; 18th Sep 2006 at 21:17.
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Errosion of pay and conditions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no never CC
Nice post
very truthfull and unfourtunatly you only have to look over the hill to the BOP to see exactly what you are talking about. A pilot group worked hard to get good conditions only to see years of work disapear a month or so after the last one left. Now that group is worse off now than ever before
Wannabes please take note, you don't have to fly for free!
hanz
Nice post
very truthfull and unfourtunatly you only have to look over the hill to the BOP to see exactly what you are talking about. A pilot group worked hard to get good conditions only to see years of work disapear a month or so after the last one left. Now that group is worse off now than ever before Wannabes please take note, you don't have to fly for free!
hanz
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CC with that said....And I do applaud your sentiment and your message....your first two paragraphs have set the stage for a mass exodus of intern hopefuls.....but like you,...the hard work pays off...and I have a smiley face indeed
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Ahhh CC, can I read between the lines for a mo...are there some Eagleboys unhappy with their terms and conditions at the present?..reading another post of yours re the exodus of a bunch of drivers for greener pastures..does this mean that the management might consider paying eagles finest what they are worth..
Or will that never happen?
Or will that never happen?
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Good post CC.
My 2 pennies worth:
I have a problem with pilots telling other fellow pilots not to accept lower terms and conditions, paying for type ratings etc. I don't believe enough pilots will stand by their principles. And who is to judge what is "stepping over their grandmother" and what is not? I know many pilots who have struggled for years and are now in their mid/late 30's, have never had the money to buy a house or been settled enough to get married, have no kids for the same reasons etc. Who would begrudge them a major airline job?
Unfortunately, basic economics dictates that as long as there are so many more wannabes than jobs then the employers will dictate the terms. IMHO this can only be balanced by strong union representation and/or more choice of employers so that at least experienced pilots can move around thereby persuading airlines to up what they offer to pilots to keep them. Sadly, both these conditions are woefully lacking in Australia!
Finally, what does annoy me is that the media (avaition and otherwise) continue to preach the airlines message that there is a shortage of pilots and that as a pilot you will be very well rewarded. You would expect the airlines and flying schools to heavily promote this message but you would hope that the media could also highlight the difficulties and hardships that pilots go thru if they are ever to reach the heights of the big airlines.
I appreciate your point that many pilots don't aspire to working for the big airlines (good on 'em), but for those that do, I would advise that you talk to as many pilots as possible before you start down that road. I love flying but I wish I'd known what the price was going to be.
My 2 pennies worth:
I have a problem with pilots telling other fellow pilots not to accept lower terms and conditions, paying for type ratings etc. I don't believe enough pilots will stand by their principles. And who is to judge what is "stepping over their grandmother" and what is not? I know many pilots who have struggled for years and are now in their mid/late 30's, have never had the money to buy a house or been settled enough to get married, have no kids for the same reasons etc. Who would begrudge them a major airline job?
Unfortunately, basic economics dictates that as long as there are so many more wannabes than jobs then the employers will dictate the terms. IMHO this can only be balanced by strong union representation and/or more choice of employers so that at least experienced pilots can move around thereby persuading airlines to up what they offer to pilots to keep them. Sadly, both these conditions are woefully lacking in Australia!
Finally, what does annoy me is that the media (avaition and otherwise) continue to preach the airlines message that there is a shortage of pilots and that as a pilot you will be very well rewarded. You would expect the airlines and flying schools to heavily promote this message but you would hope that the media could also highlight the difficulties and hardships that pilots go thru if they are ever to reach the heights of the big airlines.
I appreciate your point that many pilots don't aspire to working for the big airlines (good on 'em), but for those that do, I would advise that you talk to as many pilots as possible before you start down that road. I love flying but I wish I'd known what the price was going to be.
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Well a few months ago I turned down a full time GA job, paying 22,000 PA, based on minimum wage, and out of that had to come the expense for the check outs and type rating.
Thanks to me making this selfless decision I'm not sure I am ever going to get going in my career as a Pilot.
This posting is not in sarcasm, it is fact.
While the notion of banding together to achieve a result we all want is well needed, we are making the point at the wrong end.
It needs to be at the level of the AIA who are the Industry puppets, that talk to Government (ever wonder where the speil on pilot shortages come from, its the AIA).
Thanks to me making this selfless decision I'm not sure I am ever going to get going in my career as a Pilot.
This posting is not in sarcasm, it is fact.
While the notion of banding together to achieve a result we all want is well needed, we are making the point at the wrong end.
It needs to be at the level of the AIA who are the Industry puppets, that talk to Government (ever wonder where the speil on pilot shortages come from, its the AIA).
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Has anything really changed?
35 years ago a mate of mine flew a Debonair on charter work (yeah, kinda hard to belive I know) for 12 months for his board only.
He went from there to Bushies to TAA !
You do what you need to do to achieve the desired result!
BC
He went from there to Bushies to TAA !
You do what you need to do to achieve the desired result!
BC
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mattyj
Not at all mate. Most of us are pretty happy there. I think we are treated fairly. The number of pilots leaving at the mo is purely a timing thing (caused by other airlines recruiting). Many pilots consider Eagle as a stepping stone, which is fine, and a lot of those have recently moved to the next stone. And for the record, I think I get payed what I'm worth (I doubt I'd fit into the 'eagle's finest' bracket though). With the last round of negotiations about 18 months ago, new F/Os got up to a 16% pay rise (with the intro of a much needed ATPL clause). We've just got to keep things moving in the right direction.
DeltaT
I definitely appreciate where you're coming from. To be honest, you have to be prepared to work for very little in most parts of NZ GA. I don't like this, but this part of the industry is a bit of a lost cause, and if you're using it to get where you're going you can bear it for a couple of years. What I said still applies though, you shouldn't be working for nothing, and certainly not paying to work. The boys at Sunair did a great job negotiating reasonable salaries a few years back, only to have them overthrown by the next round of hopefuls (I think this is what Hanz was talking about). I obviously don't have all the answers, just trying to get the newbies thinking. Cheers.
PB
I just re-read them, it is a bit doom and gloom at the start isn't it.
Hopefully they will stay to the bit where I said it's all worth it in the end
sally
I can also see where you're coming from. Things are not quite as dire in NZ yet, airlines requiring crews to buy a type rating is still the exception rather than the rule. I hope we can keep it that way. It gets impossible for one person to make a stand when everyone else is going with the changing tide. It's like being one of a small minority to vote for a political party, you might believe in their policies, but your vote is in essence wasted. That's why we need to stop it before this becomes the accepted norm.
BC
With all due respect, that's really neither here nor there. I'm sure your mate didn't have to fund his own type rating with TAA. I've got nothing against ambitious people who are prepared to do the hard yards in GA to get their first airline job, it's what most of us have done. But the line has to be drawn where the apprenticeship ends, and the fully qualified career begins. I liken it to a trade, you do your time as an apprentice, but when that's complete, your employer should pay for any further training you require, and if you move to a new employer, they should provide any specialist training you need (a type rating). The other commonality is that while you may get worked hard and payed little at the start, you are at least getting payed, and not paying for the pleasure of working. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
Not at all mate. Most of us are pretty happy there. I think we are treated fairly. The number of pilots leaving at the mo is purely a timing thing (caused by other airlines recruiting). Many pilots consider Eagle as a stepping stone, which is fine, and a lot of those have recently moved to the next stone. And for the record, I think I get payed what I'm worth (I doubt I'd fit into the 'eagle's finest' bracket though). With the last round of negotiations about 18 months ago, new F/Os got up to a 16% pay rise (with the intro of a much needed ATPL clause). We've just got to keep things moving in the right direction.
DeltaT
I definitely appreciate where you're coming from. To be honest, you have to be prepared to work for very little in most parts of NZ GA. I don't like this, but this part of the industry is a bit of a lost cause, and if you're using it to get where you're going you can bear it for a couple of years. What I said still applies though, you shouldn't be working for nothing, and certainly not paying to work. The boys at Sunair did a great job negotiating reasonable salaries a few years back, only to have them overthrown by the next round of hopefuls (I think this is what Hanz was talking about). I obviously don't have all the answers, just trying to get the newbies thinking. Cheers.
PB
I just re-read them, it is a bit doom and gloom at the start isn't it.
Hopefully they will stay to the bit where I said it's all worth it in the end
sally
I can also see where you're coming from. Things are not quite as dire in NZ yet, airlines requiring crews to buy a type rating is still the exception rather than the rule. I hope we can keep it that way. It gets impossible for one person to make a stand when everyone else is going with the changing tide. It's like being one of a small minority to vote for a political party, you might believe in their policies, but your vote is in essence wasted. That's why we need to stop it before this becomes the accepted norm.
BC
With all due respect, that's really neither here nor there. I'm sure your mate didn't have to fund his own type rating with TAA. I've got nothing against ambitious people who are prepared to do the hard yards in GA to get their first airline job, it's what most of us have done. But the line has to be drawn where the apprenticeship ends, and the fully qualified career begins. I liken it to a trade, you do your time as an apprentice, but when that's complete, your employer should pay for any further training you require, and if you move to a new employer, they should provide any specialist training you need (a type rating). The other commonality is that while you may get worked hard and payed little at the start, you are at least getting payed, and not paying for the pleasure of working. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
Last edited by Cloud Cutter; 18th Sep 2006 at 21:12.
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Lets be honest..this isn't just an aviation problem in New Zealand. Nobody is getting paid enough..a banana republic with total incompetant government since the advent of MMP, we are slipping behind the developed world more and more. The only people getting a decent hourly wage are benificiaries.
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Paraparaumu or thereabouts...?!
Hahaha! You boys are funny!!
I think I can guess who at least three or four of you are from the "Internship" post alone!!
Has there been a "mass exodus" to the western side of the runway, perhaps chasing the tail of an instructor?
It sounds to me like nothing has changed at KDAC and it never will. Try throwing a vagina into the mix and see how much harder it is!
You're right about it being an old boys club and as long as they have aerofoils in their hangar (aren't they building a nice big flash new one??) they'll keep taking peoples money. Its good to see a few sticking to their principles - I would like to naievely think that it will make a difference...
Still... ever the cynic...
Kiwi Chick
You boys are funny!! I think I can guess who at least three or four of you are from the "Internship" post alone!!
Has there been a "mass exodus" to the western side of the runway, perhaps chasing the tail of an instructor?
It sounds to me like nothing has changed at KDAC and it never will. Try throwing a vagina into the mix and see how much harder it is!
You're right about it being an old boys club and as long as they have aerofoils in their hangar (aren't they building a nice big flash new one??) they'll keep taking peoples money. Its good to see a few sticking to their principles - I would like to naievely think that it will make a difference...
Still... ever the cynic...
Kiwi Chick
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Hey Kiwi Chick.
tis all good fun playing with them, frustrating but bloody good fun.
is safer to have all the fools ( the admin bunch) in one place stuffing it up than spread out.
start soon on the western apron doing the C Cat.
drop me a private message and will email ya back
well it wont be my money paying for it!!!
tis all good fun playing with them, frustrating but bloody good fun.
is safer to have all the fools ( the admin bunch) in one place stuffing it up than spread out.
start soon on the western apron doing the C Cat.
drop me a private message and will email ya back
well it wont be my money paying for it!!!
