Was it today??
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Correct me if I am wrong, for I was young in the airline industry at the time but...
Didn't the pilots in the 89 dispute resign.
Imagine if that tactic was tried today, there would be no need for a prime minister to intervene
We should all learn from history to prevent repitition of mistakes !
Didn't the pilots in the 89 dispute resign.
Imagine if that tactic was tried today, there would be no need for a prime minister to intervene
We should all learn from history to prevent repitition of mistakes !
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OK. I'll correct you then.
That's the wrong question.
You should have asked "WHY did they resign?"
Search the archives here and you will find enough information and heated debate to keeep you occupied for months.
That's the wrong question.
You should have asked "WHY did they resign?"
Search the archives here and you will find enough information and heated debate to keeep you occupied for months.
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I may be just a simple greaser, however from an outsiders perspective the question I would have asked is why you would resign from a company, loose your bargaining power and then keep banging on about it for the next 17 years. If you walk out you risk the gate being locked behind you.....
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Good point. And some might also ask was it necessary to bankrupt an entire industry, losing 4 fine airlines in the process, rather than talk to a group of pilots through their union?
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I suppose the simple answer to that 019360 is that we resigned and the companies felt no obligation to talk with former employees. I'd be doing the same thing in their positions if I wanted to cut numbers, get rid of the rabble, save money, and take a position of strength against the union that had virtually run the airlines for years.
I see you're still plugging the 'lost four fine airlines' BS. That's fantasy and well you know it. It's also irresponsible misleading young Bolty on the issue.
Jack Red, I think you're labouring under a gross misunderstanding of what 'mateship' is all about.
The qualities you mention, i.e., equality, friendship, and solidarity. are indeed fine qualities, but you must look afteryourself. I bet not one of your mates from Nam would put you before themselves or follow you into a situation where certain slaughter was the only result to contemplate. If they would, then I have serious doubs about their sanity.
I also have great difficulty with anybody who would put their so called mates before their family. That wasn't why I went down the path I did, rather it was a misguided sense of loyalty to the union.
019360, I also enjoyed a couple of Kirins and contemplated the past 17 years. I too have few regrets, but one looms large.
BAE146, even if woomera is watching, there can be no intervention if it's kept civilized, and it's certainly that right now.
DD, Bolty didn't ask the wrong question at all. He may have asked the additonal question on why we resigned, but his question is a valid one. We did resign, thereby foregoing our right to a ticket back thorugh the door except at the discretion of the boss. An American import told me that he was interviewed and offered a job, with a start date pending, long before we resigned.
Tactically the union was outmanouvered at every turn, 'forcing' the resignations (which, incidentally, the AFAP management assured us were not going to be served) thereby putting the companies in the box seat, and us in the rear stalls, or even outside the hall.
I see you're still plugging the 'lost four fine airlines' BS. That's fantasy and well you know it. It's also irresponsible misleading young Bolty on the issue.
Jack Red, I think you're labouring under a gross misunderstanding of what 'mateship' is all about.
The qualities you mention, i.e., equality, friendship, and solidarity. are indeed fine qualities, but you must look afteryourself. I bet not one of your mates from Nam would put you before themselves or follow you into a situation where certain slaughter was the only result to contemplate. If they would, then I have serious doubs about their sanity.
I also have great difficulty with anybody who would put their so called mates before their family. That wasn't why I went down the path I did, rather it was a misguided sense of loyalty to the union.
019360, I also enjoyed a couple of Kirins and contemplated the past 17 years. I too have few regrets, but one looms large.
BAE146, even if woomera is watching, there can be no intervention if it's kept civilized, and it's certainly that right now.
DD, Bolty didn't ask the wrong question at all. He may have asked the additonal question on why we resigned, but his question is a valid one. We did resign, thereby foregoing our right to a ticket back thorugh the door except at the discretion of the boss. An American import told me that he was interviewed and offered a job, with a start date pending, long before we resigned.
Tactically the union was outmanouvered at every turn, 'forcing' the resignations (which, incidentally, the AFAP management assured us were not going to be served) thereby putting the companies in the box seat, and us in the rear stalls, or even outside the hall.
Last edited by JapJok; 26th Aug 2006 at 06:33.
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I think Desert Dingo has the right advice for everyone - do a search, it's all there.
I reckon Woomera has been keeping a close watch on this one and I'm sure I heard the faint sound of "metal to metal" (ie *click*) a couple of responses back.
I reckon Woomera has been keeping a close watch on this one and I'm sure I heard the faint sound of "metal to metal" (ie *click*) a couple of responses back.
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There's no doubt you're correct when you say they're not around, but due to 'incompetence and management intransigence' I would say is a matter of speculation. As pilots, we are very critical of airline managements but without management training, we do not much more than guess at whether they are good or bad managers. Certainly anything that doesn't go our way is seen as incompetent management.
You may find a dozen different theories on the Ansett demise, or perhaps a hundred.
I would suggest the most plausible reasonfor the AN collapse was that is was forced on AirNZ by Anderson, the then minister for transport and who later quit the ministry with a dodgey prostate), a situation not unlike the Alice Aprings Aero Club buying Skywest. I know they had first rights, but the government can block those deals in the national interest. If SQ had bought in, it would have been very different. Once again we can only speculate on why Anderson blocked the SQ buy and vitually forced it upon Air NZ.
Now onto the real issue you once again raise. The events of 89 had nothing to do with the demise of ANsett 12 years down the track. It's that simple. To suggest so is a simplistic, mischievous, and a pathetic attempt to blame it on those on whom you would like to blame everything from ingrown toenails to haemorrhoids.
You may find a dozen different theories on the Ansett demise, or perhaps a hundred.
I would suggest the most plausible reasonfor the AN collapse was that is was forced on AirNZ by Anderson, the then minister for transport and who later quit the ministry with a dodgey prostate), a situation not unlike the Alice Aprings Aero Club buying Skywest. I know they had first rights, but the government can block those deals in the national interest. If SQ had bought in, it would have been very different. Once again we can only speculate on why Anderson blocked the SQ buy and vitually forced it upon Air NZ.
Now onto the real issue you once again raise. The events of 89 had nothing to do with the demise of ANsett 12 years down the track. It's that simple. To suggest so is a simplistic, mischievous, and a pathetic attempt to blame it on those on whom you would like to blame everything from ingrown toenails to haemorrhoids.
Last edited by JapJok; 26th Aug 2006 at 06:30.
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Our CP (GA outfit) at the time was a staunch AFAP man but nearly all the pilots were of the opinion that the AFAP was on a hiding to nothing with the stance they were taking. Then again the pilots may have been blinkered by their own experience with the AFAP. The pilots did all their own negotiations under the auspices of the AFAP when they were all members, but the AFAP told them that unless they toed the party line they would have a certain union engaged in the building industry show them the error of their ways. The result was a mass exodus from the AFAP and creation of their own union.
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I'm also quite reliably told by the gentleman involved ,that as the dispute was escalating the Industrial Relations Judge presiding over this case asked the AIPA Industrial Officer at the time to try and pass on a message to the AFAP in order to try and defuse what was by then being seen as a potential catastrophe.
The message was ,apply for a 15% pay rise and the Industrial Court would be favourably predisposed towards such a request.
The AFAP said bugger off, it's 30% or nothing, and ladies and gentlemen the rest is history.
The message was ,apply for a 15% pay rise and the Industrial Court would be favourably predisposed towards such a request.
The AFAP said bugger off, it's 30% or nothing, and ladies and gentlemen the rest is history.
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Ah Japjok, and here was I thinking Pollyanna was a fictional character. Please don't wear those rose-coloured glasses in the cockpit will you.
Though to be fair, about the demise of Ansett, I don't suppose even the AFAP at its best had the clout to force Ansett to buy one of every jet ever made, pay vast amounts to pilots on individual contracts, refuse to talk to the legal representative of a large group of employable pilots, be the only airline to fly the 767 with an F/E, totally screw up the CRJ intordution and then try and start international air services in possibly the most spectacularly unsuitable and inept way ever done.
So maybe we should end this by agreeing that the dispute was horrible, the AFAP might have been a little flawed, and that just possibly, Sir Peter wasn't perfect either.
Though to be fair, about the demise of Ansett, I don't suppose even the AFAP at its best had the clout to force Ansett to buy one of every jet ever made, pay vast amounts to pilots on individual contracts, refuse to talk to the legal representative of a large group of employable pilots, be the only airline to fly the 767 with an F/E, totally screw up the CRJ intordution and then try and start international air services in possibly the most spectacularly unsuitable and inept way ever done.
So maybe we should end this by agreeing that the dispute was horrible, the AFAP might have been a little flawed, and that just possibly, Sir Peter wasn't perfect either.
