Night VFR
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Night VFR
Night VFR is an oxymoron and should have been abandoned some time ago - discuss!
More seriously, Night VFR yet again appears to have had some bearing on a recent accident. The problem seems to be that the qualification allows pilots to fly in what can only be described as borderline visual conditions. This, time and time again, leads to difficulties when the conditions worsen.
The phrase 'lulling into a sense of false security' comes to mind. It leads to poor decision making and increases the chance of an accident - often fatal.
The real question is whether it should be removed from the Licensing system.
Would be interested in any views.
More seriously, Night VFR yet again appears to have had some bearing on a recent accident. The problem seems to be that the qualification allows pilots to fly in what can only be described as borderline visual conditions. This, time and time again, leads to difficulties when the conditions worsen.
The phrase 'lulling into a sense of false security' comes to mind. It leads to poor decision making and increases the chance of an accident - often fatal.
The real question is whether it should be removed from the Licensing system.
Would be interested in any views.
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-Sorry don't agree! Why should it be removed from the licensing sytem?? Yes, NVFR is probably the most useless rating you can get but it's only really designed to get you home after dark without having to chase last light. If you wanna fly Sydney - Melbourne at night then get a CIR. There will always be a few cowboys that will ruin it for everyone else and removing NVFR isn't gonna change that. When I did my NVFR my instructor emphasised on how useless this rating is and I will really only use it to get home a few minutes after dark. The risk takers can't ruin it for everyone else!
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My 2c
Night VFR is an oxymoron and should have been abandoned some time ago
NVFR is another skill set that a pilot may obtain. Whether the pilot uses it wisely or not is another matter entirely (And it's pretty difficult to legislate against stupidity).
I got my NVFR just after my PPL, for the simple reason that I'd read about too many accidents where a day VFR pilot found him/herself in the air after last light. Sure, Prior Planning PPP and all that, but I felt more comfortable knowing that I had that skill, should something delay me on a long or a late afternoon flight. As it happened, I never had to use my NVFR in those circumstances, but it did allow me to do some pretty amazing night flights (Melbourne CBD is pretty impressive at A022).
More seriously, Night VFR yet again appears to have had some bearing on a recent accident. The problem seems to be that the qualification allows pilots to fly in what can only be described as borderline visual conditions. This, time and time again, leads to difficulties when the conditions worsen.
). Also, if you're referring to the Baw Baw accident, it's a bit early to speculate. For all we know, it may have been an IFR flight.My experience with NVFR was that it helped greatly with my usage of Navaids, as well as appreciation of LSALTS, and flying an aircraft on instruments only (Anyone doing aid work over CWS not agree?). Not to mention some pretty good night flights.
DIVOSH!
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What?
I'm confused.
How can training, and therefore a rating, that increases a Pilot's abilities to fly a machine safely, no matter what the conditions of "visual reference light" are, be useless. Useless as opposed to........?
What did I miss?
How can training, and therefore a rating, that increases a Pilot's abilities to fly a machine safely, no matter what the conditions of "visual reference light" are, be useless. Useless as opposed to........?
What did I miss?
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Originally Posted by AirSic
I'm confused.
How can training, and therefore a rating, that increases a Pilot's abilities to fly a machine safely, no matter what the conditions of "visual reference light" are, be useless. Useless as opposed to........?
What did I miss?
How can training, and therefore a rating, that increases a Pilot's abilities to fly a machine safely, no matter what the conditions of "visual reference light" are, be useless. Useless as opposed to........?
What did I miss?
Stupidity will always be the undoing of pilots.
It's good training and improves your instrument skills substantially. If one was to get caught in cloud, your survival chances will be far better if you had done NVFR. As a rating it's not much use but gives you a greater safety margin when getting home close to last light. I think it a good rating to do....and it makes you a better pilot.
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Back when I completed my CPL in 1985 the NVFR was called a class 4 Instrument Rating (also a Night VMC) and was a requirement to hold a CPL.
Exactly when this was changed I have no idea but I have heard more than one Pilot of my era state that in their opinion it should still be a requirement.
Exactly when this was changed I have no idea but I have heard more than one Pilot of my era state that in their opinion it should still be a requirement.
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Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot
I have heard more than one Pilot of my era state that in their opinion it should still be a requirement.
R
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Useful-with care.
NVMC is a very useful skill and qualification to have, and it works fine in populated areas where there are plenty of lights, or on a moonlight night.
But if you are in the outabck, or somewhere where there is no ground lighting, then you will find you need some IF skills.
A takeoff on runway 12 at Alice Springs, on a dark moonless night with high cloud cover leaves you suddenly with nothing but black to look at, and without instrument skills you can be in serious trouble.
There was one occasion when two experienced VFR pilots were doing night circuits, and the power went off shortly after they got airbourne. All the airport lighting went off, and also all the town lighting went off as well. They crashed a mile or two from the end of the runway.
I have done many dark night takeoffs, from that runway,in well equipped IFR aircraft, and it demanded proper concentration. If you relax, you get a reminder.
Like daytime flying, you need to be able to see if you do not have IF skills.
But if you are in the outabck, or somewhere where there is no ground lighting, then you will find you need some IF skills.
A takeoff on runway 12 at Alice Springs, on a dark moonless night with high cloud cover leaves you suddenly with nothing but black to look at, and without instrument skills you can be in serious trouble.
There was one occasion when two experienced VFR pilots were doing night circuits, and the power went off shortly after they got airbourne. All the airport lighting went off, and also all the town lighting went off as well. They crashed a mile or two from the end of the runway.
I have done many dark night takeoffs, from that runway,in well equipped IFR aircraft, and it demanded proper concentration. If you relax, you get a reminder.
Like daytime flying, you need to be able to see if you do not have IF skills.
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I feel that the NVFRating has a place in the licencing system.
I don't agree with it being used in Commercial operations ie. Marine pilot transfers.
Having done MPT for a few years, there are nights you don't want to be flying.
I don't agree with it being used in Commercial operations ie. Marine pilot transfers.
Having done MPT for a few years, there are nights you don't want to be flying.
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NVFR is very important in my opinion. It isnt a licence to go blasting of in the middle of the night cross country, however it is there if you find yourself after last light cross country, giving you the skill to find a suitable field with PAL or AFRU + PAL and the skill to quickly determine your LSA's from an ERC. It also gives you the skill to judge a situation much better and makes you much more profficient on Instruments, although you still need to practise regulary under the hood else you could become another statistic.
One week after completing my NVFR i was caught after Last Light with a head wind componant a tad higher than anticipated. It gave me the skill and flexibility to get home to the Mrs and return the plane than call the boss and say i was stuck out in the sticks for the night because i stuffed up last light, Or SARwatch to call saying i was missing.......
It is also a requirement for most operators to have especially if you want to become an instructor.
One week after completing my NVFR i was caught after Last Light with a head wind componant a tad higher than anticipated. It gave me the skill and flexibility to get home to the Mrs and return the plane than call the boss and say i was stuck out in the sticks for the night because i stuffed up last light, Or SARwatch to call saying i was missing.......
It is also a requirement for most operators to have especially if you want to become an instructor.
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As Bushy said, over populated areas with plenty of lights a NVFR rating is fine but the ATSB report on VH-HDT highlighted the dangers of flying at night even when conditions are technically VFR. IMHO a PIFR would be more useful.
A takeoff on runway 12 at Alice Springs, on a dark moonless night with high cloud cover leaves you suddenly with nothing but black to look at...
If they're taking off on a dark moonless night with lots of cloud cover, then the pilot is only setting himself up for a fall. The pilot that does that, probably also has a few questionable practises during his day time flying (including poor lookout, wearing thongs in the cockpit, and drinking red wine with fish for an inflight meal).
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Originally Posted by bushy
NVMC is a very useful skill and qualification to have, and it works fine in populated areas where there are plenty of lights, or on a moonlight night.
But if you are in the outabck, or somewhere where there is no ground lighting, then you will find you need some IF skills.
.
But if you are in the outabck, or somewhere where there is no ground lighting, then you will find you need some IF skills.
.
Negative guys, the Ngt VFR skills are used in the outback every night during summer months by Ag pilots , admitttedly a niche application , nevertheless important and very proffessional, the weather tends to be more reliable ar least.
The rating has its uses , the important issue is the end letters, ie VFR.
There willl always be those who will push on beyond limits , lets not penalise everyone for the lack in the lowest common denominator.
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How can training, and therefore a rating, that increases a Pilot's abilities to fly a machine safely, no matter what the conditions of "visual reference light" are, be useless. Useless as opposed to........?
NVFR is another skill set that a pilot may obtain. Whether the pilot uses it wisely or not is another matter entirely
A takeoff on runway 12 at Alice Springs, on a dark moonless night with high cloud cover leaves you suddenly with nothing but black to look at, and without instrument skills you can be in serious trouble.
There was one occasion when two experienced VFR pilots were doing night circuits, and the power went off shortly after they got airbourne. All the airport lighting went off, and also all the town lighting went off as well. They crashed a mile or two from the end of the runway.
There was one occasion when two experienced VFR pilots were doing night circuits, and the power went off shortly after they got airbourne. All the airport lighting went off, and also all the town lighting went off as well. They crashed a mile or two from the end of the runway.
I am always annoyed by pilots/instructors who seem to impress upon students/PPL's that it's simply a matter of 'getting the hang of night landings' when they are far more likely to get into trouble in many other phases of a night flight-takeoff (if applicable), en route, weather, ground lighting/aircraft failures, get-home-itis pressures, decision making, navigation.
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NVFR=visual
When I first started flying, there was no NVFR, and all night flying was considered IF. So small aeroplanes in Australia hardly ever did it. It wqs only for the airlines or the military. No-one else was considered smart enough. This flawed thinking still persists today, and is evident in many other areas of aviation. I remember having to console a teary female pilot, who had landed three minutes after official last light.
NVFR MUST be taken seriously, and as the title suggests, is VISUAL flying. It CAN be done visually, on a good night , in a city, or town with large areas of bright lighting, or on a good moonlight night. There is no reason why we cannot do a cross country flight at night, if these conditions exist, and it can be done visually. But you do need some IF skills, and instruments to do it with, as there may be gaps where visual cues are absent. On a dark moonless night with cloud cover and little or no ground lighting, NVFR is not a good idea. The instinctive situational awareness that we have in the daytime seems to vanish at night, in paticular, altitude awareness.
In a previous post I mentioned a NVFR crash at Alice Springs. One of those pilots had more than 10,000 flying hours, but not at night, or IFR.
I once had to search for a light aircraft that had not arrived at night. I had been relaying messages for him to flight service the previous evening as I was flying home myself. He was not sure of his position. The last transmission I heard from him indicated that he was now in VHF range, talking to flight service himself, and his VOR was giving useful indications. Seemed like he would be OK. Early next morning I was called to search for him. The aircaft was found near it's planned track, and had apparently been out of control, exceeded limit speeds and had lost a wing in flight.
A further relevent study would be the Kennedy crash in the USA.
Ag pilots do sometimes do night flights, and most spectacular night spraying, at dot feet. But we must remember that ag pilots are highly skilled and highly specialised professionals who have developed their skills to a very high level.
Their are many things that ag pilots do sensibly and well that would be absolute stupidity for the rest of us to attempt.
NVFR has it's place,and can be very useful, even for cross country flying, but must be treated with caution. It is VISUAL flying, and requires VISIBILITY.
NVFR MUST be taken seriously, and as the title suggests, is VISUAL flying. It CAN be done visually, on a good night , in a city, or town with large areas of bright lighting, or on a good moonlight night. There is no reason why we cannot do a cross country flight at night, if these conditions exist, and it can be done visually. But you do need some IF skills, and instruments to do it with, as there may be gaps where visual cues are absent. On a dark moonless night with cloud cover and little or no ground lighting, NVFR is not a good idea. The instinctive situational awareness that we have in the daytime seems to vanish at night, in paticular, altitude awareness.
In a previous post I mentioned a NVFR crash at Alice Springs. One of those pilots had more than 10,000 flying hours, but not at night, or IFR.
I once had to search for a light aircraft that had not arrived at night. I had been relaying messages for him to flight service the previous evening as I was flying home myself. He was not sure of his position. The last transmission I heard from him indicated that he was now in VHF range, talking to flight service himself, and his VOR was giving useful indications. Seemed like he would be OK. Early next morning I was called to search for him. The aircaft was found near it's planned track, and had apparently been out of control, exceeded limit speeds and had lost a wing in flight.
A further relevent study would be the Kennedy crash in the USA.
Ag pilots do sometimes do night flights, and most spectacular night spraying, at dot feet. But we must remember that ag pilots are highly skilled and highly specialised professionals who have developed their skills to a very high level.
Their are many things that ag pilots do sensibly and well that would be absolute stupidity for the rest of us to attempt.
NVFR has it's place,and can be very useful, even for cross country flying, but must be treated with caution. It is VISUAL flying, and requires VISIBILITY.
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Bushy
One of those pilots killed at Alice Springs had over 20000 hours - only 10 or so at night.
The aircraft performance, medical effects on the inner ear
- and a very black night killed them both.
Night VFR has its place - I am not sure where tho.
One of those pilots killed at Alice Springs had over 20000 hours - only 10 or so at night.
The aircraft performance, medical effects on the inner ear
- and a very black night killed them both.
Night VFR has its place - I am not sure where tho.