Formation Flying reading?

[Norwester]

Hello there!
I am thinking of training for a formation flying rating.
'Googling' the term "formation flying" hasn't thrown up much useful information about techniques or training, and the info that it has appears to be irrelevant here in NZ (i.e. R/T)

Can anyone point me in the right direction for anything useful about the subject online or textbooks I can order?

My local aero club used to have a copy of a really old NZ CAA Vector magazine that had an article on formation flying. I can't remember the issue date, but I remember that it was old and had an orange cover!

Thanks for any info you might provide.

[Hugh Jarse]

Gidday Norwester. I have a pretty comprehensive formation training manual somewhere from when I did mine years ago. If I can find it I'll let you know.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Hmmm...in a nutshell.

Rudder only for lateral position.
Elevator only for verticle position.
Power only for keeping station...more power on the outside of a turn, less when on the inside.
miniscule use of ailerons only to keep in same plane as lead aircraft.
Never take eyes off lead aircraft...if he CFITs you do too.

Loads of fun

[Fragnasty]

Hey Chimbu, don't forget your big red nose and oversized shoes!!

Choice bro'!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Fragnasty what is better than 'clowning around' in an aeroplane

[Erin Brockovich]

My two cents…

Only change the vectors when changing station, ie bank on – bank off……move/change station (position)……bank on – bank off.

Oh….and anticipate anticipate anticipate!

The best fun you’ll ever have in an aeroplane (by yourself).

[Chimbu chuckles]

I don't understand your point about bank?

When I was taught formation flying banking independantly of the lead aircraft...i.e to change position relative to the lead aircraft was absolutely not what you wanted to do.

EDIT: Oh I think I get it...like going from echelon left to right?

[ruprecht]

Oh, how I love keywords........

Roll, power, pull, 2 banana, 3 banana, reverse, 'tally', down the hill, through the plane, height, line, speed, BLOOM, key position, up, forward, in.

Back home in time for tea and medals.

MMSOBGYTAST.

ruprecht.

[Arm out the window]

Chimbu, the bank stuff was the RAAF way - to have sustained different AOB to the leader obviously not good, but to move in on the echelon line for example, a smidge of bank towards, take it out. Your heading is now slightly different to lead's, and you will move steadily and smoothly (!) in.
When at the right spacing, smidge of bank away, take it out.

A bit like Mr Miyagi:
"Bank on ... bank off. Wait for it... bank on ... bank off."

The rudder bit would work OK, but for display purposes if everyone's yawing to get in and out, it'll look a bit shabby in photos etc, whereas a little bit of bank won't be noticed.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Ruprecht,

You forgot 'BUG OUT!!!!', 'NOW!', and 'TAKING OVER!'

Formation flying is not just about the wingman you know, remember as a lead - 'If you bunt, you're a .........'

[Chimbu chuckles]

AOTW...

Just goes to show there is always multiple ways to denude a feline.

I remember being taught not to use aileron when in tight formation because it would make you look like you were going up and down in reference to lead...if you can see what I mean....didn't word that quite the way I would like but you probably understand. Certainly used a little aileron to get in close and, of course, when changing formation position from left to right to trail etc.

Certainly no better way to end up with a stiff neck and sore right hand index finger

Great fun....hope to be doing some more soon in my Bo to get some good air to air piccies...will post the results....I will have to try the RAAF method

[Arm out the window]

Look forward to seeing the photos, Chuckles ... haven't had the pleasure of flying form in earnest since about 98, but it's one of those things that everyone should have a chance to have a go at, I reckon.
Still got photos from my first form solo (Macchis in 83, taken by a mate who was up in the back seat of my instructor's machine) - great feeling, both zooming along at a good speed but able to see every rivet in the other aircraft, with the ever-changing background of the training area and sky trying to distract you, not game to relax and enjoy too much!

[Fragnasty]

Originally Posted by Chimbu chuckles

Rudder only for lateral position.
Elevator only for verticle position.
Power only for keeping station...more power on the outside of a turn, less when on the inside.
miniscule use of ailerons only to keep in same plane as lead aircraft.
Never take eyes off lead aircraft...if he CFITs you do too.
Loads of fun

Norwester, you'd do very well to ignore most of the advice this person has to offer. Here's a few points to consider....

Rudder: Normally used to keep the aircraft in balance. In formation, nothing changes here - the rudder is still used to counter yaw. You will probably find that airflow from the lead aircraft modifies the flow over yours, so your trim settings in formation flight will be different to when flying along by yourself. Rudder is not used for lateral postion keeping, although it does have its uses in air to air refuelling, but we can get to that later.

Elevator: CC is correct in that the elevator is used for controlling vertical position (up and down). Read ahead to ailerons though, and he'll have you believe that they keep you on plane with the lead aircraft. Wrong. Elevator gets you up on plane with the lead aircraft as he rolls into a turn away from you. If you were to simply roll with the lead aircraft as it went into a turn away, you'd end up seeing a whole lot of the underside of that aircraft (try it with your hands - roll only!!). As you roll into the turn, you'll also need elevator to keep up on plane and in the correct position. Obviously, the reverse applies as you roll out of that turn.

Power: He's pretty good here. Power controls the forward/backwards bit of position keeping. Remember that as you use elevator to go up and keep position into a turn, you're now climbing, so the aircraft will slow down unless you apply a bit of power. The key here is small, smooth throttle movements, and as soon as you see you are starting to get out of position, make a correction to fix it.

Ailerons: We've seen that the elevator does up/down, and power controls fwd/back, and the rudder (like always) takes care of yaw, leaving.......

You guessed it!! Ailerons control lateral (in/out) movement. Again, small movements, and try and do it smoothly. Nothing to do with keeping on plane.

Never take your eyes off lead!!!! Truly alarming. As you gain experience with formation, you'll learn to look away, so you can improve your situational awareness of how the formation is going overall. Yes, you do rely on the lead aircraft to position the formation accurately, but having a formation member who is able to add to the level of awareness in the formation is golden, as opposed to having a wingman who does nothing but stare at your aircraft as you lead him into a potentially dangerous situation. Remember - formation is a team thing.

CC is right about formation being loads of fun. Fun, after you've put in loads of preparation, and applied a lot of concentration during the flight.

I guess I'm saying that there is waaay more to safe formation flying than you can fit into one of CC's nutshells.....


Choice bro'!

[Arm out the window]

Fragnasty, while your comments may be reasonably useful, your tone is pretty bloody rude - what's the story?

[singleseater]

And there is always the problem that any movement relative to the lead requires 3 control inputs.
Say we are wide and wish to move closser to the lead.
A little aileron, the heading changes and sure enough we start to move in.
Now to stop the movement we must change the heading to parrallel the lead. But our aircraft now has linear momentum inwards relative to the lead, so it is neccessary to overcompensate, or to change the heading so it is actually away from the lead.
When we are now stabalised we can only now change heading to match the leads.
Works in all 3 planes but most obvious in fore-aft with the power. Most critical is lateral.
Oh and when you are moving in, you are travelling further, so need power, which once again will require 3 movements. every movement relative to the lead will require a power change as well as control input.
Most important thing in formation is the lead, if they do not do the job well, form is nearly impossible.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sorry Frag if I have got under your skin.

Elevator gets you up on plane with the lead aircraft as he rolls into a turn away from you. If you were to simply roll with the lead aircraft as it went into a turn away, you'd end up seeing a whole lot of the underside of that aircraft (try it with your hands - roll only!!)

I agree completely and I was remiss to not mention/remember that bit...guess I was being oversimplistic. Of course you use a combination of elevator/aileron and throttle to maintain station in a turn...I was simply trying to break it down into component parts to help understand the whole.

It has been a good 12 years since I did any...and I only have maybe 10 or 15 hrs of it with 2 or 3 being at night...long story that bit

We are all 'victims' of our teachers to some extent..I was taught minimal use of aileron when holding a tight position...I accept that the airforce's teachers are more knowledgeable in this discipline than were mine...I actually got the vague impression it was the blind leading the stupid when my two mates and I climbed into 3 C152s with three instructors (no previous mil background) to start our formation endorsement.

But I will argue your point of looking anywhere other than at the aircraft you're formating on, except if flying a very loose formation. When you are flying less than 6' away from another aeroplane I don't believe you have the luxury of looking anywhere else.

One of my efforts a long time ago...about 92ish.

[Fragnasty]

Originally Posted by Chimbu chuckles

But I will argue your point of looking anywhere other than at the aircraft you're formating on, except if flying a very loose formation. When you are flying less than 6' away from another aeroplane I don't believe you have the luxury of looking anywhere else.

I do, but I bow to your superior experience. I've only been doing this formation stuff pretty much daily/nightly/VMC/IMC for the last 15 years, so what would I know???

Originally Posted by Chimbu chuckles

Fragnasty what is better than 'clowning around' in an aeroplane

AOTW, this is what got my back up. It is attitudes like this that make the sky a lot less safe at times.


Choice bro'!

[Pseudonymn]

I had the chance to pax in the lead of a group. This is one of my pics...

I had a blast! Some of you may even recognise the Trinnie, which is followed by a Cherokee 6, then a Debonair.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Thats what got up your nose?

I was only playing to your comment about

don't forget your big red nose and oversized shoes!

You the type of Airforce pilot that pidgeon holes civvies based on one throw away remark?

I take my flying career very seriously (12000 hrs and counting, across a VERY wide spectrum of flying from SE bush flying in PNG to wide body long haul) but try not to take myself to seriously...so relax...or not as I REALLY don't give a fig.

[Fragnasty]

No, I'm the type of pilot that thinks ignorance is a dangerous thing. With as much experience as you seem to have, you should know better than to post things that are just plain wrong.