Qantas Group Pilots One seniority list
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Qantas Group Pilots One seniority list
Pilot against Pilot does nothing except put a big smile on the CEOs face's. Its inevitable that survivable Airlines will need to diversify into a mixture of full service or low cost backpacker type operations, with 100% wet lease operations included as well.
This does not keep all the pilots happy, lower pay rates for some groups and slow command progression for others. We can try and slow this metamorphose but it is going to happen. So what is it we really want?
1) To retain pay and conditions that exist, and
2) Keep command progression happening for those next in line.
Qantas owns 100% of at least five Jet airline operations, Qantas Mainline, Australian Airlines, Jet Star, Jetconnect and recently the flight operations of Express Freighters Australia.
Each of these operators have their own pay and conditions and each of these operators have their place in the overall operation, and we cannot change that. We can waste a lot of time, anger and money but it will still remain this way. History has proved this overseas already.
So each operator retains their own pay and conditions O.K but what about progression then... Well again whats worked best overseas already.
A single common seniority list for all Qantas 100% owned jet operations. Sure to get the CEOs to agree there would be some limitations on how often you could play your card but at the end of the day they don't care which operation you work for.
So now we have the ability for pilots to retain the pay and conditions in the operation they bid to be with, and also apply for progression when their turn comes, if the new position suits them.
There would be lots of fine tuning sorting out a seniority list, but in the end one common list and one common industrial group is the only long term answer.
Cheers Mag.
This does not keep all the pilots happy, lower pay rates for some groups and slow command progression for others. We can try and slow this metamorphose but it is going to happen. So what is it we really want?
1) To retain pay and conditions that exist, and
2) Keep command progression happening for those next in line.
Qantas owns 100% of at least five Jet airline operations, Qantas Mainline, Australian Airlines, Jet Star, Jetconnect and recently the flight operations of Express Freighters Australia.
Each of these operators have their own pay and conditions and each of these operators have their place in the overall operation, and we cannot change that. We can waste a lot of time, anger and money but it will still remain this way. History has proved this overseas already.
So each operator retains their own pay and conditions O.K but what about progression then... Well again whats worked best overseas already.
A single common seniority list for all Qantas 100% owned jet operations. Sure to get the CEOs to agree there would be some limitations on how often you could play your card but at the end of the day they don't care which operation you work for.
So now we have the ability for pilots to retain the pay and conditions in the operation they bid to be with, and also apply for progression when their turn comes, if the new position suits them.
There would be lots of fine tuning sorting out a seniority list, but in the end one common list and one common industrial group is the only long term answer.
Cheers Mag.
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Originally Posted by mangatete
A single common seniority list for all Qantas 100% owned jet operations.
What you meant to say was, one common seniority list for all Qantas group pilots providing the option of a career progression from Dash 8 FO all the way to B747, if that's what floats your boat.
Grandpa Aerotart
Nice sentiment...naive but nice.
There would be lots of fine tuning sorting out a seniority list
You wanna see the results when talk of seniority lists being merged starts
The last time it was mooted between AIPA and 'a certain regional owned by QF' the regional pilots would accept nothing but datal seniority with ALL that entailed.
Like the fact that some of the older, senior regional turboprop captains had seniority predating some junior captains at mainline...they wanted 'their' Jet commands!
The AIPA reps sat across the table looking somewhat incredulous and not really believing what they were hearing.
When asked if they were serious the regional pilots representatives were adamant
AIPA got up and walked out.
It will never happen.
PAF that is not what datal seniority means...if you are next on the list and have ticked all the competency boxes you get a go...if not the next on the list gets looked at, and so on, until one is found who meets all criteria.
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The Qantas Jet aircraft flying is being spread wider across the Qantas groups (divide and conquer). To bring the pilot groups back to a common goal they all need to have a equal chance. Overseas they have introduced with great success. To provide an fairness during the introduction period, all pilots at the time of implementation within a particular group retained the right of one upgrade bid, within their present company, ahead of someone outside that company. Attrition eventually removes that grandfather type clause and a standard seniority list then prevails.
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Originally Posted by pakeha-boy
seniority is not only fair...its right!!!....
Right? No, it's wrong. Seniority rewards mediocrity. What's wrong with incentive and rewarding the motivated for a positive response to incentives? Seniority rewards time servers who more often than not prevent the brighter and motivated from progressing which is detrimental not only to the employer but also to the employee. Think about it and look around and see how (1) the dead 'uns get by just because of seniority, and (2) bright young people thwarted by the barriers created by seniority. Seniority right? No bloody way it is.
So take a number and get in line! 
Right? No, it's wrong. Seniority rewards mediocrity. What's wrong with incentive and rewarding the motivated for a positive response to incentives? Seniority rewards time servers who more often than not prevent the brighter and motivated from progressing which is detrimental not only to the employer but also to the employee. Think about it and look around and see how (1) the dead 'uns get by just because of seniority, and (2) bright young people thwarted by the barriers created by seniority. Seniority right? No bloody way it is.
In an ideal world, the pilots would be objectively marked across all fleets, all assessors would mark the same and we would all be ranked according to performance. All this based on 4 sims a year.
The seniority system only allows people a shot at promotion, it's no guarantee that they'll pass.
ruprecht (waaaaay down the list)
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Spot on, Ruprecht.
a shot is all that is needed if your not up to it at least you had a go. the only people against seniority are brown nosers and those new to companies that had previous commands, believe they are gods gift to aviation and deserve it above giving other that may be young and bright a SHOT.
a shot is all that is needed if your not up to it at least you had a go. the only people against seniority are brown nosers and those new to companies that had previous commands, believe they are gods gift to aviation and deserve it above giving other that may be young and bright a SHOT.
I used to believe in progress on merit, and boy have I changed my mind.
unfortunately only partly true.
i don't work for QANTAS, but I do work for an organisation were brown nosers are rewarded and its a very sorry sight these days. they made it to places of management (I was going to use importance, whoops)
The company is in a shambles morale is much lower than I have ever seen in any place I have worked.
Having said all that, it is relatively easy to set people up so they don't get the results that are required for progression even in a seniorority based system and vice versa.
seniority does is prevent the brown nosers from bypassing the system!
i don't work for QANTAS, but I do work for an organisation were brown nosers are rewarded and its a very sorry sight these days. they made it to places of management (I was going to use importance, whoops)
The company is in a shambles morale is much lower than I have ever seen in any place I have worked.
Having said all that, it is relatively easy to set people up so they don't get the results that are required for progression even in a seniorority based system and vice versa.
Last edited by RENURPP; 6th Aug 2006 at 08:08.
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[quote=B A Lert
Seniority rewards mediocrity. What's wrong with incentive and rewarding the motivated for a positive response to incentives? [/quote]
Assuming we all posses ATP's and a medical, please explain how you would consistently determine achievment and motivation to decide advancment/promotion within the Company ?? (that does not compromise safety or the working conditions of your colleagues).
Remember you have an opportunity at your initial interview stage to show-off any skills or tertiary quals you have that might differentiate you.
Where I work, there is provision in the contract to allow a SMALL number of management commds out of seniorty, this caters for those so inclined.... and seems to work well.
You make a sweeping statement that pilots on a seniority list are mediocre in their performance.
I would suggest when you join a (serious) large Airline, you will find yourself in the company of like-minded, motivated induviduals that would hands-down out-perform potential up-starts. (The occasional pilot that under performs is dealt with by the training organisation)
Seniority..... always seems to be an issue for those that dont have it. I would suggest better selection of an employer early in your career as a better strategy........
Seniority rewards mediocrity. What's wrong with incentive and rewarding the motivated for a positive response to incentives? [/quote]
Assuming we all posses ATP's and a medical, please explain how you would consistently determine achievment and motivation to decide advancment/promotion within the Company ?? (that does not compromise safety or the working conditions of your colleagues).
Remember you have an opportunity at your initial interview stage to show-off any skills or tertiary quals you have that might differentiate you.
Where I work, there is provision in the contract to allow a SMALL number of management commds out of seniorty, this caters for those so inclined.... and seems to work well.
You make a sweeping statement that pilots on a seniority list are mediocre in their performance.
I would suggest when you join a (serious) large Airline, you will find yourself in the company of like-minded, motivated induviduals that would hands-down out-perform potential up-starts. (The occasional pilot that under performs is dealt with by the training organisation)
Seniority..... always seems to be an issue for those that dont have it. I would suggest better selection of an employer early in your career as a better strategy........
Last edited by slamer.; 21st Feb 2007 at 09:09.
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Even the airlines without a seniority list tend to look at time in service as part of the selection process. Its a common list allowing all pilots flying for the various groups within Qantas the ability to apply for jobs as they come up. Maybe the Turboprop Qantas groups could also look at arranging a common list. Whats the feeling of the guys flying the jets for the Qantas groups, Mainline, Jetconnect, and Jetstar...
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What seniority does is prevent the brown nosers from bypassing the system! So take a number and get in line!
Like anything its not perfect but it more often than not keeps everything fair.
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if seniority were fair and right then everyone in thw world would want it and by that i mean outside aviation. It is in fact not fair and not right. Justification of it to defend against favouritism/nepotism etc. is ridiculous because it has not stopped it in two majors I've been in . The benefit it gives a few does not counter the great penalty on others. Length of service should be a factor in promotion, amongst many others. I could go on but this debate is futile, most people have their minds set and I wont change them.
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Seniority is the only way to go. I have worked in companies both with and without seniority. In the company without senoirity, I was held back from command due to the false perception of a few individuals, when finally given a go at command I breezed through it. In my current company I score very well on all checks and if seniority wasn't in place I believe that I would be upgraded fairly quickly, but I am happy to wait my time. Why should someone who has the ability to be a captain be passed over because someone believes that another person would make a better captain.
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but its not just about being a Captain. Its about EVERY upgrade and EVERY transfer and EVERY holiday and EVERY roster for EVER.Its about greed and envy and its a great tool of management to keep the masses quiet. But most of all you answered the question yourself. It is "someones" job to determine who the better person would be and hence "the better person won". Is it just ego that does not let you admit that someone better for the job got it before you? Ultimately you were promoted and succeeded. Its good to see that your first employer recognised your talent and put their faith in you. If you were the boss and the owner do you want ok people or the best people controlling your livelihood?
...i'll keep taking the bait until I find a much harder wall..............
...i'll keep taking the bait until I find a much harder wall..............
one common industrial group
Did everyone read big Dicko's report the other week. I haven't got it here (I "filed"it
), but he said a Pilot Opportunity List will "never happen". Nuf said!
Senioroity is the only way to go when talking airlines, otherwise you start running into all the problems mentioned above.