POB Onboad Requirement ?!?!
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Originally Posted by UnderneathTheRadar
On the same subject, I have often been asked for POB after cancelling IFR and lodging a VFR SARTIME.
I have assumed that this is just laziness by the controller? Or are you concerned I may have picked someone up along the way? <g>
UTR
I have assumed that this is just laziness by the controller? Or are you concerned I may have picked someone up along the way? <g>
UTR
Richo - check AIP, which is the rule book. It says that POB must be passed. I don't think RAPAC minutes count as rules! They do, however, result in rules being reviewed sometimes.
Cheers,
NFR.
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Posted by bob55
i thought it was only IFR flights other than RPT that had to report POB? VFR flights should never say POB in taxi calls at C,D or GAAP, and certainly not class G.
at GAAPs i have often been asked for POB (which is not a required element of the call) when obtaining VFR clearances.
there is also no requirement to report POB on first contact with approach control VFR or IFR as far as i know.
i'm happy to be corrected by way of a reference.....
The answer is all flights except scheduled RPT should advise POB on taxi, and also when entering CTA from OCTA (if you stay in CTA, you generally don't need to advise POB because it can be obtained from the previous sector).
The reference is AIP ENR 1.1 4.3.2
The reference is AIP ENR 1.1 4.3.2
at GAAPs i have often been asked for POB (which is not a required element of the call) when obtaining VFR clearances.
there is also no requirement to report POB on first contact with approach control VFR or IFR as far as i know.
i'm happy to be corrected by way of a reference.....
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****su - hit the nail on the head.
Its not the practical reason or intent that is bieng questioned.
As NFR and others pointed out the wording of this section is the problem.
NFR those minutes should be readily available to you, have a read. All of what we are saying here has been said before. The END concensus was that there was NO REQUIRMENT for certian aircraft operations types to report POB, and that the RAAF's reason for asking was from the training and care perspective. It is my memory, that the senior ATC (SATCO & ESO) who were present aggreed, but there was no reason to change.
I aggree with this.
Its the wording in the books that needs changing, or reviewing for relevence. I mean why were certian types exempt from the requirment in the first place.
RPT is obvious, so the VFR lighties are just not afforded the same level of care.
Its not the practical reason or intent that is bieng questioned.
As NFR and others pointed out the wording of this section is the problem.
NFR those minutes should be readily available to you, have a read. All of what we are saying here has been said before. The END concensus was that there was NO REQUIRMENT for certian aircraft operations types to report POB, and that the RAAF's reason for asking was from the training and care perspective. It is my memory, that the senior ATC (SATCO & ESO) who were present aggreed, but there was no reason to change.
I aggree with this.
Its the wording in the books that needs changing, or reviewing for relevence. I mean why were certian types exempt from the requirment in the first place.
RPT is obvious, so the VFR lighties are just not afforded the same level of care.
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Originally Posted by wdn
Posted by bob55
i thought it was only IFR flights other than RPT that had to report POB? VFR flights should never say POB in taxi calls at C,D or GAAP, and certainly not class G.
at GAAPs i have often been asked for POB (which is not a required element of the call) when obtaining VFR clearances.
there is also no requirement to report POB on first contact with approach control VFR or IFR as far as i know.
i'm happy to be corrected by way of a reference.....
i thought it was only IFR flights other than RPT that had to report POB? VFR flights should never say POB in taxi calls at C,D or GAAP, and certainly not class G.
at GAAPs i have often been asked for POB (which is not a required element of the call) when obtaining VFR clearances.
there is also no requirement to report POB on first contact with approach control VFR or IFR as far as i know.
i'm happy to be corrected by way of a reference.....
A pratical reason why RAAF and AsA differ is we use different systems (ADATS vs TAAATS) - and NAIPS and NOTAMS etc generally fall under AsA - so they would have better access to the information.
To be honest I wasn't aware of the difference in this regard - but given the general philosophy of Air Traffic Control is to always go with the safer option - I think I like the RAAF's procedures best.
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I always thought that Souls On Board referred to living bodies, so to speak, an POB meant bodies in general. So if you are carrying around full coffins, it can be known how many living bodies there were. Like 200 POB, 198 SOB.
????
????
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Originally Posted by bob55
OK, I'm RAAF trained - but I've always been taught to get POB from everyone, regardless of IFR or VFR (RPT excluded).
A pratical reason why RAAF and AsA differ is we use different systems (ADATS vs TAAATS) - and NAIPS and NOTAMS etc generally fall under AsA - so they would have better access to the information.
To be honest I wasn't aware of the difference in this regard - but given the general philosophy of Air Traffic Control is to always go with the safer option - I think I like the RAAF's procedures best.
A pratical reason why RAAF and AsA differ is we use different systems (ADATS vs TAAATS) - and NAIPS and NOTAMS etc generally fall under AsA - so they would have better access to the information.
To be honest I wasn't aware of the difference in this regard - but given the general philosophy of Air Traffic Control is to always go with the safer option - I think I like the RAAF's procedures best.
As far as being trained differently, it's been a long time since the 8132 docs were used in the RAAF, we all use MATS, and MATS is our master document. As far as MATS goes, for an aircraft that has flight planned, the only requirement that I know specified is that "if" an aircraft advises POB it shall be recorded (doesn't even say how to record it! I stand to be corrected by someone with a greater knowledge of MATS than myself). So unless it is in your FSO 10's (or whatever local instructions are called these days) that you "must" get POB, I would guess that your training officers have passed along how they were trained. Doesn't make it right though.
Personally, if I am advised a POB by a taxiing aircraft, I record it (as per MATS). I don't chase it. It is not in any of my documents as a read back or required item. If I am accepting FPL details, completely different story.
It is all a joke of course. As an example, I accept details on a CS-DN IFR flight (and yes ASA ATC do do this every day Bob). I submit details into TAAATS then get our flight datas to send FPL to ADATS, cause no one trusts ADATS messaging, so we have to manually do it
POB is not transmitted in these messages. The aircraft crashes on landing into DN. Doesn't advise POB cause doesn't have time. You diligently ring briefing to get POB off plan. Briefing have no details, how do you now know where the plan came from. I guess eventually you would work your way backwards to CS TWR. 20 minutes later you have your POB, after we search through our strips and find it. Hasn't really helped has it. My first response to an emergency after acknowledging is to get POB if not already advised. If you don't know the POB it's quite simple, "Fire Commander POB unknown". Tried chasing up a POB through QF ops in a hurry!
Last edited by Albizia; 2nd Aug 2006 at 22:38. Reason: edited for spelling and sense
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Personally, I think its a pointless requirement, certainly there are arguments for and against...but as far as I'm concerned there should be no need to clogg the airwaves up with information that is sumitted with the loadsheet and is available to ATC anytime they need it
****su_Tonka and Richo
Instead of blindly looking for the ruling, why not think about it logically.
Why do you think ATC might want to know?
Why do you think ATC might want to know?
people making up their own minds about what should or shouldn't be said is a bloody drag on the radio. Please don't promote it.
If you don't like a procedure OR you think more info would be advantageous, then try and get it changed!
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I shall look into this further.
One important thing to note, is I quite often hear pilots on taxi give 'ammended POB' (Ie, different to the flight plan).
You would have to be sure 100% pilots advise POB if different from their flight plan.
Personally, I don't see the harm in getting it from everyone (except RPT, because it's easy to get their POB from ops).
I find 95% of pilots (including VFR) advise POB on taxi - though granted they are probably use to Darwin procedures.
One important thing to note, is I quite often hear pilots on taxi give 'ammended POB' (Ie, different to the flight plan).
You would have to be sure 100% pilots advise POB if different from their flight plan.
Personally, I don't see the harm in getting it from everyone (except RPT, because it's easy to get their POB from ops).
I find 95% of pilots (including VFR) advise POB on taxi - though granted they are probably use to Darwin procedures.
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POB is required by ATC at military fields where a RPT terminal exists for taxiing or landing aircraft. It is a MATS requirement.
If an aircraft does not state their POB, it will be requested by the controller.
BOB55 has been trained correctly but may need to spend a little more time in the books and a little less time on PPRUNE.
edited to add - Scheduled RPT do not normally get asked for POB as it's considered readily available.
If an aircraft does not state their POB, it will be requested by the controller.
BOB55 has been trained correctly but may need to spend a little more time in the books and a little less time on PPRUNE.
edited to add - Scheduled RPT do not normally get asked for POB as it's considered readily available.
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Originally Posted by NIMFLT
POB is required by ATC at military fields where a RPT terminal exists for taxiing or landing aircraft. It is a MATS requirement.
If an aircraft does not state their POB, it will be requested by the controller.
BOB55 has been trained correctly but may need to spend a little more time in the books and a little less time on PPRUNE.
edited to add - Scheduled RPT do not normally get asked for POB as it's considered readily available.
If an aircraft does not state their POB, it will be requested by the controller.
BOB55 has been trained correctly but may need to spend a little more time in the books and a little less time on PPRUNE.
edited to add - Scheduled RPT do not normally get asked for POB as it's considered readily available.
As for more time in the books -you sound a lot like my OPS FLT CDR!
