Military or Private?

[pilotwannabe]

I have just got home from a Careers Exbo at my college, and spoke with representatives of both private air schools and the RNZAF airforce. I thought this would be the perfect place to ask advice concerning which option to pick for my pilot training.

I have my heart set on flying and am seriously going to start training as soon as I have left college (at the end of 2008).

I know there are certain pros and cons, like with the airforce you have a 10 year contract, and the chance of actually flying an aircraft is very low- where as if you went privately you have more airtime but it costs a lot of money and time before you actually make a steady income.

Money is not really an issues at the moment as my parents have offered to lend me the money to gain my PPL- but after that I think I would struggle.

My question for you is: what do you think I should go for- Military or Private? My dream job would be flying for an airline such as Air New Zealand- but I know that is a long, long way off.

Perhaps some pilots here with different experiences can give me some inside knowledge that would help me make an informed decision.

Thanks,
Andrew

[AerocatS2A]

I think that if you find the idea of being in the Air Force appealing, then you may as well go for it. If they don't take you on as a pilot then do the private thing (and lets face it, the Air Force has traditionally been very hard to get in to as a pilot.)

I obviously don't know your parents or their financial situation, but might I suggest that you try doing it the other way? You finance your private licence yourself as a show of commitment, then they lend you the money for the CPL. Live at home, get a part time job, don't drink alcohol, don't go to parties, avoid girlfriends, try and do at least two lessons a week. Fly at a school that has quick access to the training area so you don't waste money on unecessary flying. It may take a little while, but it is better to plod initially then get a cash injection that lets you complete everything quickly, rather than doing a quick PPL and then floundering around due to a lack of funds. Also, when doing your CPL training you are more likely to be going on longish cross country flights so you don't want money to be an issue at that stage.

If you end up doing it privately, make the most of the people in the industry that you know. If people like Wombat35* see that you are doing well and working hard at your flying, then they might be inclined to put a good word in with someone in the industry who employs young pilots. That is how people normally get their start in aviation. You don't have to be good, just competent, an honest worker, and have a couple of contacts.

Also, be careful about the flying school you go to. The big shiny ones might lack the personal touch, and the cheap ones may be dodgy (or not.) Do a bit of research, the people on PPRuNe a generally happy to recommend a school and relate their experiences.

*I don't mean to speak for Wombat35, I don't know him, and he may not even have any contacts. The point being that it is always useful to stay in touch with the various people you meet along the way (without being an annoying leech.)

[Roger Copy Ta]

Wannabe, one thing you possibly haven't considered and that I wish I'd realised when I was your age was that the RAF and RAAF also take on Kiwis, (and they actually have jets!). Very difficult to get into (so you'll want excellent grades) but worth the effort. Flying a fighter jet is a dream I let slip by. Look up their websites for details and contact information. Otherwise I would stay civilian, the NZAF is almost non-existent anyway.

[What time is ECT?]

Wise words AerocatS2A

Great Threads pilotwannabe, have you ever considered being an aviation writer? That way someone else pays for the flight.

But back to topic. I have payed for my flying all myself, and I can now say after 8 years of part-time flying that I am a part-time operational pilot. A PPL is a great start and a huge achievement. Everything else after a PPL is an add-on, and we are all still learning.

I cannot recommend the "stupid loan" scheme. I have have heard too many personal stories of glossy brochures, high costs, inadequate training, and no job at the end. But that is a broad generalisation and not true of every school. (Just like not all Lawyers lie.) A search on PPRuNe will show this to be true.

A trade/apprenticeship will serve you will in having another string to your bow, as well as providing you with a healthy income.

Quote - "Find a job that you love so much that you would do it for free - and then do it so well that someone will pay you."

I wish you well - it's a great career with some lovely people.
ECT?

P.S. Don't shoot me for the Lawyer comment - I'm just the messenger boy.

[Keep it straight]

I totally agree with your trade idee. if i had my time again i would do a trade. probley lame. you may struggle at finding a job as a pilot. but there will always be trades people required. in any field. lame would just be a good way to stay in the industrie. all i can fall back on is milking cows. not a bad job but i don't like getting out off bed when it is raining outside at 04.30.

i would probleby try the airforce(whats left off it) just by the odd change you get treu. you get to fly some nice gear and they pay for your training. who cares you have to stay there for 10 years? you'r still young then when you get out. and get to see some places others never get to see.

[ITCZ]

One thing that I always find interesting about the question "should I apply for the military to start or advance my career" is that the key question is never discussed.

There is always plenty of discussion about the opportunity to get free training on expensive equipment, opportunities to travel, sponsored degrees, career advancement within a large organisation, good recognition of experience and qualifications upon exit to the 'civilian' world, etc.

Some might even probe a little deeper and think about the kind of organisations that are military services. They are disciplined services, very hierarchical, rules based, and the concept of individual rights, such as the right to a life outside of work, the ability to express a point of view, is quite different than in normal employment.

But rarely is the key question asked: Are you prepared to be used an an instrument of state, to deliver death, injury and destruction to people that you have never met?

And: In so doing, do you understand what might happen to you one day while you are "at work"? Did you see the news footage of shot down American A10 pilots, their headless and charred corpses still in flight suits being dragged through a Middle Eastern city?

Many like the security and direction that a military career offers. They like belonging to an organisation that looks after them. But what about Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, the F111 ground engineers that did the fuel tank resealing maintenance, HMAS Melbourne, the Seahawk crash just last year....

And the State that directed you to undertake the mission... did anybody really believe that Gulf War 2 was about WMD?

And the idea of "peacetime" service -- even between the two gulf wars, in 'peacetime', the United Nations reports that over six thousand uniformed military personnel from recognised nations were killed every year whilst on active service.

I'm not about to tell you that military service is bad. I am just saying that you have to think about a big difference between the two pathways that no one has yet discussed with you here.

I respect those who enter military service through a sense of obligation, and service to their community. Full marks, and thank you.

So please, in any discussion about military v civilian flying careers, lets not forget a very important point.... military aviation is about projecting state power and putting your life and health at risk in doing so.

[Keep it straight]

personaly i dont have a problem with that. at least in this counrty you can choose wether you want or not. were i am from back in the days you didnt even had a choise. you number came up so you had to go. and so i did. (i just happen to volunteer for the special forces to make my time more interesting) i do think that militairy life was not to bad. you got wel fed, medicaly wel looked after, i liked the disipline and there was plenty off exercise. plus great comarad ship, something in my exerience you will hardly ever experience in civi live. but every body to its own ofcourse.

[bob55]

Originally Posted by ITCZ

One thing that I always find interesting about the question "should I apply for the military to start or advance my career" is that the key question is never discussed.

There is always plenty of discussion about the opportunity to get free training on expensive equipment, opportunities to travel, sponsored degrees, career advancement within a large organisation, good recognition of experience and qualifications upon exit to the 'civilian' world, etc.

Some might even probe a little deeper and think about the kind of organisations that are military services. They are disciplined services, very hierarchical, rules based, and the concept of individual rights, such as the right to a life outside of work, the ability to express a point of view, is quite different than in normal employment.

But rarely is the key question asked: Are you prepared to be used an an instrument of state, to deliver death, injury and destruction to people that you have never met?

And: In so doing, do you understand what might happen to you one day while you are "at work"? Did you see the news footage of shot down American A10 pilots, their headless and charred corpses still in flight suits being dragged through a Middle Eastern city?

Many like the security and direction that a military career offers. They like belonging to an organisation that looks after them. But what about Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, the F111 ground engineers that did the fuel tank resealing maintenance, HMAS Melbourne, the Seahawk crash just last year....

And the State that directed you to undertake the mission... did anybody really believe that Gulf War 2 was about WMD?

And the idea of "peacetime" service -- even between the two gulf wars, in 'peacetime', the United Nations reports that over six thousand uniformed military personnel from recognised nations were killed every year whilst on active service.

I'm not about to tell you that military service is bad. I am just saying that you have to think about a big difference between the two pathways that no one has yet discussed with you here.

I respect those who enter military service through a sense of obligation, and service to their community. Full marks, and thank you.

So please, in any discussion about military v civilian flying careers, lets not forget a very important point.... military aviation is about projecting state power and putting your life and health at risk in doing so.

Very good point you raise. Too many pilot recruits (to be) I talk to openly admit they are using the RAAF to get them a job with Qantas.

The RAAF doesn't need people like that, and with that attitude you won't last. The RAAF works best because the people want to be there. Sure, many of them go on to work for Qantas because they've had enough - but to have that mindset from the beginning is a bit stupid. If you want to work for Qantas there are quicker ways to do it (although much more expensive).

It's a risky job - and not just pilots, most of the deployable categories have some element of risk, but there's many rewards that go with that.

[Water Wings]

Just remember in the military they can (and do) transfer you to a desk job at anytime they see fit. Whilst in years to come you may get another transfer back onto active flying duties, you could well go years without touching the controls of an aircraft.

[pilotwannabe]

All very good points so far.

I have to say, I don't like the idea of going to war at all so I don't think the airforce is for me.

Let me ask you all another question- is it worth getting a 'Diploma in Aviation' rather than a straight PPL and CPL?

[Arm out the window]

Good points, ITCZ, and the probability of being sent off to a conflict is naturally one of the first things anyone considering signing with to the Defence Forces should think carefully about.

To put a slightly different slant on things though, we all put our lives in danger every time we jump in our cars to go to work, but that never stops anyone doing it, and the number of people killed or seriously injured in the employ of the forces in our part of the world is very small, relatively speaking.

Another point to consider is that unless we're willing to scrap defence forces altogether, there will be a need for good people to form them, so all philosophical arguments aside, there's interesting flying in good aircraft to be had, at the cost of some self-sacrifice and hard work.

Having noted your comments about wanting an airline job and not being all that stoked about the idea of going to war, pilotwannabe, sounds like you'd probably be better off going straight for the civil side rather than military.

Re the diploma, I'd be inclined to give that a miss, put my head down and get the flying qualifications and first jobs under way as quick as you can - get the real guts of it going first. With a bit of determination and effort, there's always opportunities to gain further qualifications later, but if you want a flying job, get yourself employable and chase one.

Just my 2 bob's, anyway.

[tinpis]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14033493/

Kiwi can be the pilot recrooting centre of the Universe.

[Keep it straight]

25% drop in student pilots

it seem that they are worried in that article that there is a drop off 25% in student pilots. corect me if i am wrong but i think it is a good thing. that means for people who are keen to start just less competition and maybe in 10 years down the track guy's and girls may even get paid a decent wages in there 1st job.

[Swingwing]

Live at home, get a part time job, don't drink alcohol, don't go to parties, avoid girlfriends, try and do at least two lessons a week

OK, I know that you have to save money if you're going to pay for civvy flying, but the young bloke's gotta live too, Aerocat!

After all, what's the point of being a pilot if you can't use it to try and impress women? [Q: How do you know there's a pilot at your party? A: He'll tell you].

Obviously I'm biased (and haven't experienced the full gamut of what GA's got to offer) but if you can handle the elements so well identified by ITCZ, then I urge you to consider the Air Force (and more specifically than that, the RAAF or RAF - as was said, the choice of iron to operate is just so much bigger). The quality of flying simply can't be replicated in any other sphere of aviation - and after all, you've got the rest of your life to do 14 hour legs between Auckland and Asia.. As a former air force pilot once said of his airline gig "it's the best non-flying job I've ever had!"

But I can only agree with other posters - you don't join the air force so that you can improve your chances of an airline job in the future. You join because you want the best flying (the sort that money simply can't buy), the most interesting destinations, and the chance to be part of a young, smart and dedicated team doing worthwhile missions (it isn't all dropping bombs on other people's heads you know, I did plenty of UN humanitarian work as well, as do the RNZAF).

Oh, and the best part - they pay for all of it, so that you can do the flying AND all the things Aerocat wants you to give up!

PM me if you want to chat more. I had exactly the same dilemma in 1986!

SW

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by Swingwing

OK, I know that you have to save money if you're going to pay for civvy flying, but the young bloke's gotta live too, Aerocat!

He can live later .



Ok, ok, he can have a drink occasionally, and I guess girls are alright. But only one night stands, none of this relationship crap .

[Wombat35]

Hi Guys,

Thought I should add my two cents worth.

I have been lucky with my career having come up through the Military path and I say lucky, as I'm now see exactly how difficult it can be to make your way through GA without external support (Wealthy Parents).

Just a point with Military flying, Arm out the Window and others will be the first to tell you that I'm not the most Military, Military person they have met and when it comes to all that bush and gun stuff, well lets leave it at, my two favourite sayings.

1. Don't run it just panic’s the troops.
2. If I have to use my gun, 100 other people haven’t done their job properly.

Now, it's true that you can end up in some places that aren't exactly on the brochure, (for me it was East Timor) however looking back we did some good there and directly saved many lives through Medivacs and other ops. So it's not all death and destruction, however yes you do sign on the line and that does sign away some of your freedom of choice.

As for RAAF to Airline. You sign a contract (ROSO) and when that contract expires then you should have the choice to do as you wish. End of story.

I often get asked which is the better path for an airline career and I think that they are actually the same.

The training and flying in the RAAF will be better than in the Civi world (Unless I'm your instructor ), HOWEVER, the level of commitment and determination to get your commercial licence and experience up to airline level and I mean (AIRNZ or QANTAS), is much greater than in the military so when it comes to interview time an airline will take that into account.

Bottom line, I would not make the decision at this point.

Rule number one, apply for everything. It's much easier to say thanks however I have already accepted....... rather than get strung on chasing something and then miss out on something else. For me it was turning down a Cadetship with QANTAS and an Engineering degree to join the RAAF.

Life is always about choices and having a backup plan.

As for girls, , best I leave that for Wombat 36 or Mrs Wombat as she now likes to be referred as however, to quote Mr Jagger.... Time, is on your side.... just master alcohol first, then move onto women.

Cheers

Wombat

[sir.pratt]

Originally Posted by Keep it straight

I totally agree with your trade idee. if i had my time again i would do a trade. probley lame. you may struggle at finding a job as a pilot. but there will always be trades people required. in any field. lame would just be a good way to stay in the industrie. all i can fall back on is milking cows. not a bad job but i don't like getting out off bed when it is raining outside at 04.30.

i would probleby try the airforce(whats left off it) just by the odd change you get treu. you get to fly some nice gear and they pay for your training. who cares you have to stay there for 10 years? you'r still young then when you get out. and get to see some places others never get to see.

and there's those of us who are LAMEs and at 0430am are putting a plane back together for those who are flying it out in the morning, wishing we were the one flying it, not the one fixing it.....

BUT it pays the bills, and lets me fly toys pretty much whenever i want

[Keep it straight]

geee i tought you guy's didnt start till about 08.00 with coffee that is. just kidding.
i got a lot off respect for lame's a lot off responsebility, and aften working in drafty hangers.
i would love to have a trade like that under my belt.but wouldnt trade it in for my current job

[Ratshit]

Hey there Wombat! You still in the RAAF? In what part of the world do you hang out, Townsville?

R

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Originally Posted by pilotwannabe

I have to say, I don't like the idea of going to war at all

Give war a chance