Buying and owning a lightie - costs involved?
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Buying and owning a lightie - costs involved?
I'm sure this one has been asked a bunch of times, but, let's just say that I was looking to buy a small 4 seat bug-smasher, what would it cost me to own?
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You are right - it has been asked before, and it's one of those how long is a piece of string questions.
You need to nail down the following variable first before asking the question:
Type - acquisition cost
Projected Hours each year.
Use of aircraft - online or private? VFR or IFR? This will also affect:
Insurance (use of acft / experience level)
Prop/Eng HTR?
Hangared? Where?
The more hours the cheapr per hour cost to absorb the biggies - maintenance and allowance for prop/engine overhaul, and insurance. Fuel is not as big a cost as you thought (unless you are getting a BIG thirsty single)
You need to nail down the following variable first before asking the question:
Type - acquisition cost
Projected Hours each year.
Use of aircraft - online or private? VFR or IFR? This will also affect:
Insurance (use of acft / experience level)
Prop/Eng HTR?
Hangared? Where?
The more hours the cheapr per hour cost to absorb the biggies - maintenance and allowance for prop/engine overhaul, and insurance. Fuel is not as big a cost as you thought (unless you are getting a BIG thirsty single)
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Horses for courses
Whiz,
Mate if you are looking at a private plane with very low cost of ownership but a good performer you have to go to the experimental category, and the best bang for buck is the Jabiru J400/430. Bet you can't guess why I say that.
If you PM me I can get you more details of all my research on the main contenders when I did a very thorough research of costs etc.
The reality is the diference is huge. Payload and speed and cost V say a C172 or Cherokee/Warrior. No Contest.
However if you want a certifed a/c for rental to a flight school or charter work.......gotta go the old way. Or find $400-500K and buy a Cirrus. Of the new generation machines these are the pick!
Cheers
J
Mate if you are looking at a private plane with very low cost of ownership but a good performer you have to go to the experimental category, and the best bang for buck is the Jabiru J400/430. Bet you can't guess why I say that.
If you PM me I can get you more details of all my research on the main contenders when I did a very thorough research of costs etc.
The reality is the diference is huge. Payload and speed and cost V say a C172 or Cherokee/Warrior. No Contest.
However if you want a certifed a/c for rental to a flight school or charter work.......gotta go the old way. Or find $400-500K and buy a Cirrus. Of the new generation machines these are the pick!
Cheers
J
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Want to know why aeroplanes are so expensive to hire? Go buy one and run it for a few years - scary experience, but nice to fly without staring at the VDO when you are number three in line to takeoff waiting for two to land first.
Do not overlook buying a two seat RAA type - I very rarely fly with more than two on board. The odd time I do I can hire a bigger plane.
Do not overlook buying a two seat RAA type - I very rarely fly with more than two on board. The odd time I do I can hire a bigger plane.
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what would it cost me to own?
Really, if you have to ask...then you can't afford it.
I've done the sums for a number of similar propositions, and even cross hired with guarenteed hours (good luck with that), you'll be lucky to break even.
And that's not even allowing for unexpected costs, eg. early prop replacement, defaulting debtors, new ADs, etc.
If however it's just for personal use, rather than an investment, then J430s advise is fairly prudent.
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Whizz. From one who has "been there, done that" (more often than I care to think about) I now find when I get the urge to acquire an aircraft, I take a Bex with hot Milo and a long lie down.
Regardless of what scheme you may have in mind to mitigate your real costs - cross hire to clubs and/or flying schools - if you can't afford to write off/lose/burn/throw away $20,000 to $30,000 per annum, don't even think of buying an aircraft. Any aircraft!
My two cents worth!
Sunny Woomera
Regardless of what scheme you may have in mind to mitigate your real costs - cross hire to clubs and/or flying schools - if you can't afford to write off/lose/burn/throw away $20,000 to $30,000 per annum, don't even think of buying an aircraft. Any aircraft!
My two cents worth!
Sunny Woomera
Grandpa Aerotart
Remarkable accurate figure that Woomera...Whizz as an aircraft owner I can vouch for the 20-30k/annum figure. It will encompass most of the 'lighty' spectrum.
It really is more 'informing' to think of the annual costs as opposed to an hourly cost...think about what an annual inspection, insurance, hangarage will cost and that + DOCs is what the first hour each year costs you...each hour after that is merely DOCs. It is too easy to gloss over the real costs when you only think about an hourly figure.
The breakdown on buying an aeroplane.
Pre purchase Inspections.
The pre purchase inspection that you MUST not skimp on should be at LEAST the equivalent of an annual inspection.
Annual Inspections
Any quote from a LAME double. If you're buying a real old aeroplane tripple the first one and then double the subsequent ones. This minimises but does not negate 'sticker shock'. The reason I say tripple the first one is that almost invariably the first annual is a ball tearer...because the previous owner has usually avoided spending money as much as humanly possible in the last year or so they have owned the aircraft...at least. A REALLY GOOD pre purchase inspection might mitigate this to some extent but not completely.
Insurance.
Fixed undercarriage is a LOT cheaper to insure. 4 seats is cheaper than 6. Forget a twin unless you have money to burn and lots of twin time.
Hangarage.
Will cost anywhere between $200/mth and $350...EASILY!. Hangarage is actually getting so expensive that if you live a long way from the sea then, hail storms aside, hangarage is a marginally worthwhile expense. Factor $200-$250/MTH over 10 years and it exceeds the cost of a paint job and new interior!
If you are serious about buying an aircraft you will probably have a specific type in mind..or two.
Contact the type specific owners club and ask them to put you in contact with;
a/. Owners of the same types and
b/. An engineer who specialises or is extrememly knowledgeable about the specific type.
Go into google and type in Aviation Consumer and subscribe to it...it is a gold mine of good info on any type you could possibly be interested in and each aircraft type article will have owner comments at the end. I cannot recommend that website enough as a source for no BS facts.
Aeroplanes are the easiest thing in the world to buy and the most difficult thing to sell...make sure you buy what you really want rather than dipping your toe in the water thinking you can sell and upgrade later.
It is a BUYERS market.
Be aware that any money you spend after purchase to upgrade the aircraft will only return about 50-60% in increased value if you try and sell the aircraft reasonably soon thereafter. I think that is dumb but I don't get a say.
It really is more 'informing' to think of the annual costs as opposed to an hourly cost...think about what an annual inspection, insurance, hangarage will cost and that + DOCs is what the first hour each year costs you...each hour after that is merely DOCs. It is too easy to gloss over the real costs when you only think about an hourly figure.
The breakdown on buying an aeroplane.
Pre purchase Inspections.
The pre purchase inspection that you MUST not skimp on should be at LEAST the equivalent of an annual inspection.
Annual Inspections
Any quote from a LAME double. If you're buying a real old aeroplane tripple the first one and then double the subsequent ones. This minimises but does not negate 'sticker shock'. The reason I say tripple the first one is that almost invariably the first annual is a ball tearer...because the previous owner has usually avoided spending money as much as humanly possible in the last year or so they have owned the aircraft...at least. A REALLY GOOD pre purchase inspection might mitigate this to some extent but not completely.
Insurance.
Fixed undercarriage is a LOT cheaper to insure. 4 seats is cheaper than 6. Forget a twin unless you have money to burn and lots of twin time.
Hangarage.
Will cost anywhere between $200/mth and $350...EASILY!. Hangarage is actually getting so expensive that if you live a long way from the sea then, hail storms aside, hangarage is a marginally worthwhile expense. Factor $200-$250/MTH over 10 years and it exceeds the cost of a paint job and new interior!
If you are serious about buying an aircraft you will probably have a specific type in mind..or two.
Contact the type specific owners club and ask them to put you in contact with;
a/. Owners of the same types and
b/. An engineer who specialises or is extrememly knowledgeable about the specific type.
Go into google and type in Aviation Consumer and subscribe to it...it is a gold mine of good info on any type you could possibly be interested in and each aircraft type article will have owner comments at the end. I cannot recommend that website enough as a source for no BS facts.
Aeroplanes are the easiest thing in the world to buy and the most difficult thing to sell...make sure you buy what you really want rather than dipping your toe in the water thinking you can sell and upgrade later.
It is a BUYERS market.
Be aware that any money you spend after purchase to upgrade the aircraft will only return about 50-60% in increased value if you try and sell the aircraft reasonably soon thereafter. I think that is dumb but I don't get a say.
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what would it cost me to own
Chuckles has a good handle and my Woomera Colleagues $20-30k pa out the door for the privilege isn't light on either.
Ask anyone who owns a $60,000-$100,000 boat how much it costs to run and maintain against the number of hours fishing, same old same old.
You can either afford to indulge you hobby or you cannot, if you cant join a club or syndicate.
'Nother Woomera who's also been there done that.
Does anyone know the rough costs involved in owning and running an Aviat husky. Me and the old fella are looking into either one of these, or maybe a cub, just for a weekend basher.
Cheers
Cheers
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The way to go is an aircraft registered in the RAA or LSA category. They are a lot cheaper to run in every aspect compared to the GA equivalent, the regs are more relaxed and there are plenty of well performing machines to choose from. They are the way to go for recreational flying. The days of the heavy, inefficient, expensive, gas-guzzlers are numbered.
Grandpa Aerotart
DT if you are thinking Piper Cub, Aviat Husky etc you probably are better off looking at RA aircraft like the Tecnam...you'll pay about the same capital cost but have a new aircraft which will be cheaper to run in the medium term.
Hey Wiz, forget about a bugsmasher, how about i go you halves in one of these...
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/eclipse_500/
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/eclipse_500/
After reading some of the above posts, it's a wonder there's anyone left out there that owns an aeroplane at all. It cost me a bit over $9500 to operate the 172 over the last 12 months. That includes fuel, insurance, hangarage and the anual inspection. There were some other incidentals such as landing fees, nav charges etc. (and some oil, forgot about that) that would have come to something less than $300.
I reckon that's pretty good. Certainly nowhere near the $20,000 to $30,000 suggested above. The hourly operating cost? Who cares. When the bills come in, you pay'em. I don't get hung up on how much it costs me to operate an hour. Couldn't care less.
You'll see people going over all sorts figures with all sorts of permutations and combinations. At the end of it all they'll say "I simply can't justify spending that much an hour to operate the aircraft". What they really meant was, they couldn't afford it in the first place. If you can't afford it, don't go there. Dollars held in reserve for the engine and prop? Yer, right. I simply wouldn't be disciplined enough to leave it alone. When the engines due, it's due. With a little bit of forward planning, I'll come up with the dollars then.
Correct. I'll take the 172 over a Jabiru or Technam any day. The 172 will do stuff that a Jabiru or Technam simply can't. It needs more horsepower to do that, which means it'll have a higher fuel burn. I'm prepared to accept that. I saw some prices recently for Technam's and they were in the region of $120,000 to $150,000. I'm not prepared to pay that amount of money to be at the same place that Cessna and Piper were at 60 years ago. You can get a very nice 172 for a $100,000 or less. The $50,000 you've got left over will buy a lot of maintenance and a lot of fuel.
Aircraft ownership can be very rewarding, satisfying and yes, at times very frustrating. It has always been expensive and always will be. But the picture might not be quite so horrendous as some people paint it.
Pick your market, do your homework, look for the lowest TT aircraft that you can afford and make sure, without fail, that you get a comprehensive pre-purchase inspection done by a reputable LAME (yes, there are some out there if you know where to look). If the aircraft doesn't come up to scratch and the owner won't come to the party over any defects, be prepared to walk away from the deal. You might feel as though you've done your dough on the pre-purchase, but you could save yourself thousands in the long run. Have fun.
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How much higher would that figure be if you added provisions for: possible top overhaul, possible cylinder replacement, engine overhaul, prop overhaul, instrument and avionics overhaul, repaint each five years or so, ditto internal refurbishment etc etc etc.
Or do you propose to run our engine and prop hours and try to sell it with chalky paint and scruffy interior - and wonder why you can't get the same money for it as you paid for it?
As a matter of interest, how many flying hours did you do for your $9,500 in costs?
Sunny Woomera
I reckon that's pretty good. Certainly nowhere near the $20,000 to $30,000 suggested above. The hourly operating cost? Who cares. When the bills come in, you pay'em. I don't get hung up on how much it costs me to operate an hour. Couldn't care less.
You'll see people going over all sorts figures with all sorts of permutations and combinations. At the end of it all they'll say "I simply can't justify spending that much an hour to operate the aircraft". What they really meant was, they couldn't afford it in the first place. If you can't afford it, don't go there. Dollars held in reserve for the engine and prop? Yer, right. I simply wouldn't be disciplined enough to leave it alone. When the engines due, it's due. With a little bit of forward planning, I'll come up with the dollars then.
The reality is the difference is huge. Payload and speed and cost V say a C172 or Cherokee/Warrior. No Contest.
Aircraft ownership can be very rewarding, satisfying and yes, at times very frustrating. It has always been expensive and always will be. But the picture might not be quite so horrendous as some people paint it.
Pick your market, do your homework, look for the lowest TT aircraft that you can afford and make sure, without fail, that you get a comprehensive pre-purchase inspection done by a reputable LAME (yes, there are some out there if you know where to look). If the aircraft doesn't come up to scratch and the owner won't come to the party over any defects, be prepared to walk away from the deal. You might feel as though you've done your dough on the pre-purchase, but you could save yourself thousands in the long run. Have fun.
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It cost me a bit over $9500 to operate the 172 over the last 12 months. That includes fuel, insurance, hangarage and the anual inspection.
Or do you propose to run our engine and prop hours and try to sell it with chalky paint and scruffy interior - and wonder why you can't get the same money for it as you paid for it?
As a matter of interest, how many flying hours did you do for your $9,500 in costs?
Sunny Woomera
Last edited by gassed budgie; 10th Jul 2006 at 00:28.
Grandpa Aerotart
Hey whizz what kind of aeroplane do you have in mind?
The spectrum is so broad that your question is impossible to answer....everything from gb's 172 to my Bonanza.
In fact those two probably neatly bookend the 'lighty' spectrum.
I didn't mean my post to put you off...far from it in fact...just to give you an idea where to start looking for the answers you seem to want.
BTW gb I completely agree with you...nice to see someone who appreciates the classics
The spectrum is so broad that your question is impossible to answer....everything from gb's 172 to my Bonanza.
In fact those two probably neatly bookend the 'lighty' spectrum.
I didn't mean my post to put you off...far from it in fact...just to give you an idea where to start looking for the answers you seem to want.
BTW gb I completely agree with you...nice to see someone who appreciates the classics
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Bought my venerable old '67 172 in 2001, paid 40500 with 6000tt and 1400hrs to run on continental 0300 engine and approx 400 tr on prop. 100's average around 4000 with new bits each time (replaced flap tracks on first annual then elevator/rudder cables on 3rd) I try to replace some ageing parts each 100 with the next mission being aileron cables in Sept's annual. Only unexpected blow out so far has been a new starter for the old donk. Like some others I will worry about the engine when it expires (might need a diesel by then) 
.
So far cross hire to others has been of mimimal benefit. Insurance (QBE) has been around 2500pa and the only other thing I would like is a new paint job sometime soon .... flew the old girl up to YBTL for the winter and will take her back to central West NSW in OCT .... (cant do that with a hire hack ) so far I'm still $100000 ahead of the Tec/Jab etc etc and cant see any big change anytime soon, my annual use is around 60 + hours .... my 2c's worth but each to their own.
.So far cross hire to others has been of mimimal benefit. Insurance (QBE) has been around 2500pa and the only other thing I would like is a new paint job sometime soon .... flew the old girl up to YBTL for the winter and will take her back to central West NSW in OCT .... (cant do that with a hire hack ) so far I'm still $100000 ahead of the Tec/Jab etc etc and cant see any big change anytime soon, my annual use is around 60 + hours .... my 2c's worth but each to their own.
You can own an aircraft AND make money. I did!
Bought my RAA Gazelle in 2002 for $28k. Did 500 hours and spent $0 on it in parts, bar oil and filters; maintainted it myself under RA-Aus regs. Sold it 2 years later for $45k. Built a 4 seat Jabiru for $76k. Out of pocket $59k. Have done 400 hours in 2 years.
Cost to hire, $120,000 over 4 years for those hours.
Cost to run, maintain & park (wet):
Gazelle - $12k.
Jab - $13k.
Approximate cost per hour $30 including engine allowance.
Sell now for $90k approx (could probably do better)
Profit when sold + $4000.
Therefore for every hour of flying I made $4.40.
This didn't include driving to the airport, maps, headsets and airways charges.
I hear you say, "but you built the aircraft, factor that in." Ok I will:
Add $18,000.
Therefore, hourly cost of owning and running = $15.50.
Cost to hire, $120,000 over 4 years for those hours.
Cost to run, maintain & park (wet):
Gazelle - $12k.
Jab - $13k.
Approximate cost per hour $30 including engine allowance.
Sell now for $90k approx (could probably do better)
Profit when sold + $4000.
Therefore for every hour of flying I made $4.40.
This didn't include driving to the airport, maps, headsets and airways charges.
I hear you say, "but you built the aircraft, factor that in." Ok I will:
Add $18,000.
Therefore, hourly cost of owning and running = $15.50.