Is the landing flare really all that complicated?
Grandpa Aerotart
Can't imagine anything worse than full time autothrottle...surely even in the 777 you can disconnect it and land normally?
A full autoland in the 767 typically eats up another 1000' of blacktop...not always a good thing.
In my view even the venerable 767 has passed the perfect automation threshold and is someway down the slippery slope of 'too much of a good thing'.
When your biggest challenge at work is staying awake the machine is doing too much and you not enough.
A full autoland in the 767 typically eats up another 1000' of blacktop...not always a good thing.
In my view even the venerable 767 has passed the perfect automation threshold and is someway down the slippery slope of 'too much of a good thing'.
When your biggest challenge at work is staying awake the machine is doing too much and you not enough.
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Why is it that this research somehow brings certain words to my head - "wheel" and "reinvent"??
If someone starts prattling off the academic theory behind the flares as I'm flaring, I'd probably end up burying the thing.
If someone starts prattling off the academic theory behind the flares as I'm flaring, I'd probably end up burying the thing.
Its attitude, attitude and attitude. Whenever we’re out flying, we’re looking to see if we’ve got the aeroplane setup in the climb attitude, straight and level attitude, descent attitude etc. It’s the same deal when we land the aeroplane. The aeroplane lands in the ‘landing attitude’ if you like.
Sliding down final the aim point sits nice and still (ideally) in the windscreen. The machine is trimmed to fly hands off, using the throttle to control the airspeed.
This being the case, you cannot arrive at the aim point at anything but the round out height. The aircraft is rounded out to a straight and level attitude and then the pilot (or student perhaps) is told to look down at the end of the runway. You don’t have a horizon as such, so the end of the runway is the reference point. Unfortunately the bulk of students probably aren’t told what there are actually looking for at the end of the runway.
It’s the attitude of course. If the nose isn’t where you want, well you’re the only one at this point in time who has an opportunity to do something about it. As you hold off and flare, backpressure is applied on the yoke or stick to raise the nose to the correct landing attitude. Your peripheral vision is used to give you visual clues as to the aircrafts height above the runway, but perhaps more importantly whether the aircraft is ballooning or sinking gently towards the runway. You will have to adjust the attitude accordingly. Nothing dramatic or harsh, just keep it nice and smooth.
How many times have we been with someone and experienced the dreaded porpising down the runway? You’re on about the fourth bounce and the next one is going to break the nose wheel off and you look across the the PIC and nothing! They’re just along for the ride. No attitude control, no anything. I wonder what they were taught. And so easy to fix. If you get the attitude right, everything else will fall neatly into place. It’s the attitude!
Sliding down final the aim point sits nice and still (ideally) in the windscreen. The machine is trimmed to fly hands off, using the throttle to control the airspeed.
This being the case, you cannot arrive at the aim point at anything but the round out height. The aircraft is rounded out to a straight and level attitude and then the pilot (or student perhaps) is told to look down at the end of the runway. You don’t have a horizon as such, so the end of the runway is the reference point. Unfortunately the bulk of students probably aren’t told what there are actually looking for at the end of the runway.
It’s the attitude of course. If the nose isn’t where you want, well you’re the only one at this point in time who has an opportunity to do something about it. As you hold off and flare, backpressure is applied on the yoke or stick to raise the nose to the correct landing attitude. Your peripheral vision is used to give you visual clues as to the aircrafts height above the runway, but perhaps more importantly whether the aircraft is ballooning or sinking gently towards the runway. You will have to adjust the attitude accordingly. Nothing dramatic or harsh, just keep it nice and smooth.
How many times have we been with someone and experienced the dreaded porpising down the runway? You’re on about the fourth bounce and the next one is going to break the nose wheel off and you look across the the PIC and nothing! They’re just along for the ride. No attitude control, no anything. I wonder what they were taught. And so easy to fix. If you get the attitude right, everything else will fall neatly into place. It’s the attitude!
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That's pretty much what I do in the 767...although I begin to round out just after the 30' talking radalt call so about 25RA. If you get the right pitch rate and time sliding the thrust levers closed just right (by looking well down the runway-just like any aeroplane) you can get a MOST satisfying feeling of VERY slight 'drag' low down as the autobrakes indicate you have touched down
He later told me I was landing an effing 767..and not a light aircraft
what a pompus ex RAF w**ker.Imagine my delight, after our "arrival" back at home base I suggested a heavy landing check was required..as his Boeing landing wasnt like landing an F4 on a carrier or a runway
CRM wasnt his strong point..at least I waited till we were back home before I let rip.
To me its all about feel...attitude..and knowing when to cut the power..all the rest is in murphys hands
Oh yeah..next time an FA moans about a landing....offer to make her/him a crap cup of coffee..whats good for the goose
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Budgie,
You gave a great description of the indicators of having successfully established an aircraft on a stabilised final approach…the essential precursor to any good landing (and I mean more than simply one that you can walk away from!).
I’d like to suggest though that its not peripheral vision that gives any more than very course visual clues on descent rate. It is the focus on the runway end or reference point or even the horizon during the second phase of the roundout that provides the really important information, specifically the descent rate and momentary lack thereof which is the signal to continue holding off.
That old exercise of standing on the ground and bending your knees while looking slightly ahead or aside and trying to sense depth perception through peripheral or even direct vision of the ground compared with the amazing sensitivity achieved while looking well ahead while bending the knees ever so slightly says it all. Attitude is very important but only as a measure of whether the check is decent rate is being achieved.
I agree with your thoughts on the degree to which training is successfully tackling what must be the most challenging phase of basic pilotage. There is so much to be gleaned from the cues at the far end of the runway.
You gave a great description of the indicators of having successfully established an aircraft on a stabilised final approach…the essential precursor to any good landing (and I mean more than simply one that you can walk away from!).
I’d like to suggest though that its not peripheral vision that gives any more than very course visual clues on descent rate. It is the focus on the runway end or reference point or even the horizon during the second phase of the roundout that provides the really important information, specifically the descent rate and momentary lack thereof which is the signal to continue holding off.
That old exercise of standing on the ground and bending your knees while looking slightly ahead or aside and trying to sense depth perception through peripheral or even direct vision of the ground compared with the amazing sensitivity achieved while looking well ahead while bending the knees ever so slightly says it all. Attitude is very important but only as a measure of whether the check is decent rate is being achieved.
I agree with your thoughts on the degree to which training is successfully tackling what must be the most challenging phase of basic pilotage. There is so much to be gleaned from the cues at the far end of the runway.
Lookin' down, consider a black as night landing with only the runway lights and maybe a pissweak landing light to help - the appearance of the far end isn't that useful, although I agree it's in that direction we should be looking.
It's the changing aspect of the lights out to the sides with respect to those far end lights that give us the info we need.
Peripheral vision is definitely important there, and as we have about 180 deg of it, we pick up a lot of clues from it.
It's the changing aspect of the lights out to the sides with respect to those far end lights that give us the info we need.
Peripheral vision is definitely important there, and as we have about 180 deg of it, we pick up a lot of clues from it.
Ever tried trying to find the ground at night when wearing goggles in a Tiger Moth? I tell you what - it is quite difficult to judge the round-out height in a Tiger Moth on an all over grass field with just a few burning kerosene goose-neck flares and of course no landing lights. I even tried to use a powerful torch but was bollocked by my RAAF instructor because I took my hand off the throttle. Once the tail was down you couldn't see over the nose of the Tiger and if you risked a wheeler the danger was from prop strike. Raw data circuits on a black night on a turn and balance indicator (no ADI of course).
In today's jargon it would be called a Skills Test.
In today's jargon it would be called a Skills Test.
Centaurus, I was going to add to my last (but forgot) that wearing NVGs, which cut your field of view down to 40 degree cones, makes it a damn sight harder to judge the flare - as one of my instructors put it when I was learning, 'you have to wave your head around like a noddy dog to fill in the gaps!' - possibly the more modern-day version of what you went through in the Tiger.
Grandpa Aerotart
I forgot to add to my last that when the talking radalt says 10' I hold that attitude as I slide the thrust levers closed...keep flaring in a 767-300 and you'll get a tailstrike.
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Floats
......for those of us that have flown floats,come back in the dark,(with a little bit of light)and had to do a night landing,(and those who have done will know what i,m talking about.)...not bragging here at all,but the ability to maintain a stabilized app and profile with a 300ft/min descent rate below 50 ft gave you a fairly smooth landing...
Lake Hood Alaska installed a "lighted runway" which made things so much easier,..so to answer the original question.....yeah I reckon the landing flare counts for alot.....especially night landings in a float plane...try it
Lake Hood Alaska installed a "lighted runway" which made things so much easier,..so to answer the original question.....yeah I reckon the landing flare counts for alot.....especially night landings in a float plane...try it
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Arm,
Thanks. A good point and I have to admit that I was only considering VFR. I still wonder though whether peripheral vision is actually the key to depth perception rather than just an adjunct to it.
Peripheral is an excellent source of cuing into relative movement, especially in picking up other aircraft, but I think that its still the forward vision (and a little downward)that is relied upon for depth perception, even at night. The schematics of illuminated runway perspectives as indicators of relative approach position require analysis of the view ahead.
This is just my opinion and happy to have holes shot in it. Good pilots draw from as many information sources as possible for cross referencing so undoubtedly its the calculated combination of all vision that maximises success. The teaching of where to actually focus at various stages in the roundout though can help break down the sensual/information overload into manageable chunks for the newbie. The forward focus during the latter part also gives valuable info for the rollout and especially guidance for any necessary cross-wind correction whereas peripheral vision may not be so useful for these.
LD
PS Forward vision in the tiger or any tail dragger for that matter in three-point certainly poses its problems though.
Thanks. A good point and I have to admit that I was only considering VFR. I still wonder though whether peripheral vision is actually the key to depth perception rather than just an adjunct to it.
Peripheral is an excellent source of cuing into relative movement, especially in picking up other aircraft, but I think that its still the forward vision (and a little downward)that is relied upon for depth perception, even at night. The schematics of illuminated runway perspectives as indicators of relative approach position require analysis of the view ahead.
This is just my opinion and happy to have holes shot in it. Good pilots draw from as many information sources as possible for cross referencing so undoubtedly its the calculated combination of all vision that maximises success. The teaching of where to actually focus at various stages in the roundout though can help break down the sensual/information overload into manageable chunks for the newbie. The forward focus during the latter part also gives valuable info for the rollout and especially guidance for any necessary cross-wind correction whereas peripheral vision may not be so useful for these.
LD
PS Forward vision in the tiger or any tail dragger for that matter in three-point certainly poses its problems though.
Grandpa Aerotart
I think you may be surprised out how long ago and under whose auspices Centaurus was doing night circuits in a Tiger Moth...plus he simply asked if anyone else had tried it....nothing in his post suggests he was not successful
Had he not been successful I would imagine he would not have gone on to fly Mustang and Lincoln Bombers (Lincoln was the last model Lancaster)
Had he not been successful I would imagine he would not have gone on to fly Mustang and Lincoln Bombers (Lincoln was the last model Lancaster)
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By the way Chimbu, disconnecting the autothrottle in a 777 would be a non-normal landing, no matter which airline you fly it for. I expect all airliners from now will be the same, only the old stuff (767 737 757) will stay the same for certification req's to cross qualify the crews, and I am familiar with what a Lincoln Bomber was and I'm glad you are too.
Grandpa Aerotart
Nurries Messiah...my Dad flew em to...same airforce and same time as Centaurus
The 777 must be very clever...I cannot imagine how it decides when, and how fast, to close them during a manual landing. Perhaps one of these days I will see it first hand and be suitably empressed. IF the fleet replacement plans were I work actually happen as planned it's seems more likely I'll go 767-787...but as with all these things I'll believe it when it's parked outside and the type rating is in my licence
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The 777 must be very clever...I cannot imagine how it decides when, and how fast, to close them during a manual landing. Perhaps one of these days I will see it first hand and be suitably empressed. IF the fleet replacement plans were I work actually happen as planned it's seems more likely I'll go 767-787...but as with all these things I'll believe it when it's parked outside and the type rating is in my licence
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