SKYWEST A DEGREE.
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Originally Posted by ThoughtCrime
I admit not all university courses are the same however, and just taking....
Have a degree? Please tick Yes/No
....into account and nothing more is just silly. More should be looked at the content of course & how/where it was done when/if taking degrees into consideration when selecting candidates.
Have a degree? Please tick Yes/No
....into account and nothing more is just silly. More should be looked at the content of course & how/where it was done when/if taking degrees into consideration when selecting candidates.
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my ten cents worth
heck i agree with all of you on both sides of this argument for many reasons. But seriously i am about to embark on my 8th license, the JAR Atpl and hopefully my last blo*%y license! I am of the opinion that many countries (including Australia) should look at why this license was set up in the first place and why it is now undisputed as an industry standard for AIRLINES in Europe!
Ok sure it's not a degree but it's close isn't it? Yes, it's it's got lot's of mind numbing content that takes a lot of motivation to absorb and finally empart durring exam time.
I'd hate this thread to get lost on small issues and unessasary sh*t slinging because in the end Learning Never Stops for us who do this for a living, even humble seaplane pilots have to use thier heads when situations get tough!
We all have obstacles to overcome, some take time and money others are more personal but we should all draw upon a common core of understanding/knowledge at the begining! This would obviate unessasary hurdles from being used in the selection process.
This is a huge global industry which touches on many issues least of all the Man Machine relationship and which requires us all to play many different roles for which some are well suited to than others! This is the task that employers are given to solve! The customer is the stake-holder in this agrument.
That's better now isn't it?
Ok sure it's not a degree but it's close isn't it? Yes, it's it's got lot's of mind numbing content that takes a lot of motivation to absorb and finally empart durring exam time.
I'd hate this thread to get lost on small issues and unessasary sh*t slinging because in the end Learning Never Stops for us who do this for a living, even humble seaplane pilots have to use thier heads when situations get tough!
We all have obstacles to overcome, some take time and money others are more personal but we should all draw upon a common core of understanding/knowledge at the begining! This would obviate unessasary hurdles from being used in the selection process.
This is a huge global industry which touches on many issues least of all the Man Machine relationship and which requires us all to play many different roles for which some are well suited to than others! This is the task that employers are given to solve! The customer is the stake-holder in this agrument.
That's better now isn't it?
How about all the 'academics' write a 100000 word essay on "Why a degree is not necessary for employment into a Regional Airline in the year 2006".
That will get you thinking and keep you busy
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That will get you thinking and keep you busy
.
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The real value in a degree is not in "rote learning" some topic - as is the case for many other non-degree qualifications. The real value is in developing analytical thinking and thought processes/decision making.
That is why some companies ask for a tertiary qualified individual, regardless of the field they studied.
Yes, experience can help form these analytical processes on a basic level.
E.g. I did A and B, the result was C [frightened myself in an aircraft]. Well tertiary education is about giving you the mental skills to see that doing A and B may result in C. Hence avoiding the bad experience in the first place.
If it was not the case, how about we hire doctors with no tertiary qualification and they can find out through experience that if they do A and B, C results. C being someone died.
A degree enhances your ability to reason. However, it's just as false to suggest someone cannot reason without one. A degree WILL enhance you ability to analyse and use logic. I'm sure you'll agree this is a positive in a field such as aviation.
If we took two people with exactly the same past experiences, experiences in aviation and skill level you could compare. If one of them had a degree and one didn't I think the one with the degree would make a better pilot.
Trying to compare a pilot with a degree and X experience with a pilot without a degree and Y experience is to fall for the Ceteris paribus fallacy.
That is why some companies ask for a tertiary qualified individual, regardless of the field they studied.
Yes, experience can help form these analytical processes on a basic level.
E.g. I did A and B, the result was C [frightened myself in an aircraft]. Well tertiary education is about giving you the mental skills to see that doing A and B may result in C. Hence avoiding the bad experience in the first place.
If it was not the case, how about we hire doctors with no tertiary qualification and they can find out through experience that if they do A and B, C results. C being someone died.
A degree enhances your ability to reason. However, it's just as false to suggest someone cannot reason without one. A degree WILL enhance you ability to analyse and use logic. I'm sure you'll agree this is a positive in a field such as aviation.
If we took two people with exactly the same past experiences, experiences in aviation and skill level you could compare. If one of them had a degree and one didn't I think the one with the degree would make a better pilot.
Trying to compare a pilot with a degree and X experience with a pilot without a degree and Y experience is to fall for the Ceteris paribus fallacy.
?
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[QUOTEwho else hates the Roman numerals used in the Jeppesen Manuals now][/QUOTE]
Way too much commonsense from you HOSS!
I hate Roman numerals too and I do think your essay idea is a good one.
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Way too much commonsense from you HOSS!
I hate Roman numerals too and I do think your essay idea is a good one.
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What was the rationale behind the Roman numerals?
Someone should Jepps that it costs more in ink to print in Roman numerals. Maybe they'll then drop them
As for the degrees giving you a better analytical thinking and better thought/decision making process - I'm sorry to say, but that's not always the case. Some of the stuff I did at university REDUCED my rational thinking abilities, reduced my patience level, worsened my word usage (because I cursed them all the time for being waste of time), and turned me into a ref-bot (that's a robot that just find reference materials, to the detriment of my own thinking abilities). Having said that, some of the stuff I did at uni was terrific, interesting and challenging (and that's before taking drinking, eating too much and generally being silly into account).
Not everything we study at uni is beneficial. Only some are. We just can't generalise and say that university study is beneficial.
Hoss I might consider writing an 100,000 word thesis on the subject, but I doubt I can stay awake long enough.
Someone should Jepps that it costs more in ink to print in Roman numerals. Maybe they'll then drop them
As for the degrees giving you a better analytical thinking and better thought/decision making process - I'm sorry to say, but that's not always the case. Some of the stuff I did at university REDUCED my rational thinking abilities, reduced my patience level, worsened my word usage (because I cursed them all the time for being waste of time), and turned me into a ref-bot (that's a robot that just find reference materials, to the detriment of my own thinking abilities). Having said that, some of the stuff I did at uni was terrific, interesting and challenging (and that's before taking drinking, eating too much and generally being silly into account).
Not everything we study at uni is beneficial. Only some are. We just can't generalise and say that university study is beneficial.
Hoss I might consider writing an 100,000 word thesis on the subject, but I doubt I can stay awake long enough.
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I think Pass-A-Frozo has put it brilliantly. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get through a university degree, and the main benifit of a degree to a pilot is developement of critical, and analytical thinking skills. These skills allow you to maximise what you learn from your flying experience.
CC,
Please post some of the stuff you are on to me immediately! 
the main benifit of a degree to a pilot is developement of critical, and analytical thinking skills. These skills allow you to maximise what you learn from your flying experience.
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Originally Posted by Pass-A-Frozo
Don't blame the university system for the shtye uni you got into 
Some of the most benficial subjects that made me think were done at one of the 'less well-respected' unis.
I suspect everything is heavily subject-dependent.
Some of the thickest, least analytical and least logical people I've met in my life (and I'm not that young) have been graduates who in fact graduated with good grades. I think 'an any old degree for the sake of having a degree' means sod-all, especially a bachelor's degree.
The argument about analytical skills etc becomes somewhat more valid at postgraduate level. You can often quite easily see that the average 'thinking abilities' of students tends to be fairly good, at masters level and above. Having said that, some of the people with very little common sense, critical thinking skills or even everyday living skills are with PhDs, so it's still not a guarantee of 'decent level of intelligence'.
Last edited by Oh that's super!; 9th Apr 2006 at 05:00.
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G'Day Cloud Cutter,
You are right on the money. After 20 years in the airline industry I would have to say that it is remarkable to see the difference in flying skills between those who put thought into their flying and those who dont. This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.
Although an absence of tertiary qualifications does not neccessarily mean that a career aviator doesnt possess the capacity to generate insights into their flying, the completion of such studies at least indicates that such candidates are prepared to apply themselves to intellectual contemplation and are likely to harness these skills towards personal professional betterment.
Basically, the dullards out there give me the sh1ts.
Peace and tubes...
You are right on the money. After 20 years in the airline industry I would have to say that it is remarkable to see the difference in flying skills between those who put thought into their flying and those who dont. This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.
Although an absence of tertiary qualifications does not neccessarily mean that a career aviator doesnt possess the capacity to generate insights into their flying, the completion of such studies at least indicates that such candidates are prepared to apply themselves to intellectual contemplation and are likely to harness these skills towards personal professional betterment.
Basically, the dullards out there give me the sh1ts.
Peace and tubes...
the main benifit of a degree to a pilot is developement of critical, and analytical thinking skills. These skills allow you to maximise what you learn from your flying experience.
100% of the degree qualified pilots I work with disproves this theory!
I'll take a bag as well!
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You are right on the money. After 20 years in the airline industry I would have to say that it is remarkable to see the difference in flying skills between those who put thought into their flying and those who dont. This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.
Although an absence of tertiary qualifications does not neccessarily mean that a career aviator doesnt possess the capacity to generate insights into their flying, the completion of such studies at least indicates that such candidates are prepared to apply themselves to intellectual contemplation and are likely to harness these skills towards personal professional betterment.
Although an absence of tertiary qualifications does not neccessarily mean that a career aviator doesnt possess the capacity to generate insights into their flying, the completion of such studies at least indicates that such candidates are prepared to apply themselves to intellectual contemplation and are likely to harness these skills towards personal professional betterment.
I'll still take the FO that has had a few scares, (with or without a degree)
Bullsh*t and wind types are best in positions of bullsh*t and wind. I still like to think that flying is not one such position.
This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.
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Cheers RTB, you're speaking my language!
I wish people wouldn't get so defensive during an objective debate. I don't think there's much place for anecdotal evidence.
Once again I reiterate, having a degree isn't a prerequisite for someone to fit into the group of thoughtful pilots that Ralph has described - but it is an indicator that someone has better odds of fitting that profile, one that is proven, and very easy for recruiters to use.
As far as some PhDs having limited everyday skills, this is what I call the absent-minded professor syndrome, which is a function of extreme focus on one subject. Your brain can only handle so much.
I wish people wouldn't get so defensive during an objective debate. I don't think there's much place for anecdotal evidence.
Once again I reiterate, having a degree isn't a prerequisite for someone to fit into the group of thoughtful pilots that Ralph has described - but it is an indicator that someone has better odds of fitting that profile, one that is proven, and very easy for recruiters to use.
As far as some PhDs having limited everyday skills, this is what I call the absent-minded professor syndrome, which is a function of extreme focus on one subject. Your brain can only handle so much.
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Let's feed the chooks!
Had a very interesting discussion in the CRZ the other day. You know, in these moments between dodging build ups in the ITCZ, eating and copying the volmet on 13282. Me and the other guy were wondering about the direction of the company and where the management were taking us. We both agreed that whilst the idiots at headquaters were spot on in their future projections with regard to accounting for autocorrelation and multicollinearity, they had F#$%^& up big time regarding their hopeless failure to account for heteroscedasticity of the available data.
D$#%$heads. Airline management are the same, world over. Useless cretans..
"Grab the ATIS Steve-O, 67Nm to top of descent."
I think my last post went over someones head.
