SKYWEST A DEGREE.
Mr.Buzzy.
Quote:
Why is an ATPL holder flying in command credited with almost 3 quarters of the degree course content?
Please tell me which university will give one credits for three quarters of the degree course?? Most three year degree courses are composed of 24 units. One would have to do a minimum of 8 and only if one had a Frozen ATPL, Instrument Rating, Instructor Rating and held a first degree. Without a first degree you would be lucky to get credits for 8 units.
This 8 unit credit would only apply to an Aviation Degree as for any other degree ie. Science, Engineering, Economics and Commerce to name a few, one would get nothing. That is why Aviation Degrees are not held in the same regard as other degrees, however they are certainly better than no degree.
I think you will find in years gone bye Ansett held a Business Degree in high regard which assisted ones application immeasureably.
Bye the way if you think Cairns is challenging at night, try the Indian Sub continent during the SW Monsoon, Dacca during the cyclone season, Hong Kong, Taipei, Philipines and South China Sea during the Typhoon season and Japan during winter, makes Cairns childs play.
Some pilots find Cairns difficult because they are brought up on fair weather, used to flying visual approaches, do not self brief in case they have to fly an instrument approach and so when the wx is not near perfect are totally unprepared.
I guess some guys fly around with no wx radar when the forecast is not the best, thats not experience thats more stupidity leading to a bad experience.
Quote:
Why is an ATPL holder flying in command credited with almost 3 quarters of the degree course content?
Please tell me which university will give one credits for three quarters of the degree course?? Most three year degree courses are composed of 24 units. One would have to do a minimum of 8 and only if one had a Frozen ATPL, Instrument Rating, Instructor Rating and held a first degree. Without a first degree you would be lucky to get credits for 8 units.
This 8 unit credit would only apply to an Aviation Degree as for any other degree ie. Science, Engineering, Economics and Commerce to name a few, one would get nothing. That is why Aviation Degrees are not held in the same regard as other degrees, however they are certainly better than no degree.
I think you will find in years gone bye Ansett held a Business Degree in high regard which assisted ones application immeasureably.
Bye the way if you think Cairns is challenging at night, try the Indian Sub continent during the SW Monsoon, Dacca during the cyclone season, Hong Kong, Taipei, Philipines and South China Sea during the Typhoon season and Japan during winter, makes Cairns childs play.
Some pilots find Cairns difficult because they are brought up on fair weather, used to flying visual approaches, do not self brief in case they have to fly an instrument approach and so when the wx is not near perfect are totally unprepared.
I guess some guys fly around with no wx radar when the forecast is not the best, thats not experience thats more stupidity leading to a bad experience.
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Bye the way if you think Cairns is challenging at night, try the Indian Sub continent during the SW Monsoon, Dacca during the cyclone season, Hong Kong, Taipei, Philipines and South China Sea during the Typhoon season and Japan during winter, makes Cairns childs play.
bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbjeeeezyarpies!zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz
Steady on MBA747, many airmen 'cut their teeth' flying around the northern parts without a weather radar and with ordinary ARFOR's.
I think a lot of knowledge and lessons in weather would have been learned from those actual experiences.
'Stupidity' is a harsh word, why not call it 'character building'
.
I think a lot of knowledge and lessons in weather would have been learned from those actual experiences.
'Stupidity' is a harsh word, why not call it 'character building'
.
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Ok all of you... I am not saying degrees should be placed as a substitute to good experience. I'm well aware that my degree does not help me with the command/judgement/manipulative/etc skills.
I'm saying that guys with a degree of the same experience will be ahead of those who dont. One with more experience and no degree, well... thats a company thing. Its simply being competitive in a competitive environment. One more feather in the cap if you will. Cant fly, well of course your degree isnt going to mean anything!
Oh and Mr Buzzy, I dont think its a requirement have a degree to be going on and on about how one thinks the business should be run. Read Reporting Points!
TC
I'm saying that guys with a degree of the same experience will be ahead of those who dont. One with more experience and no degree, well... thats a company thing. Its simply being competitive in a competitive environment. One more feather in the cap if you will. Cant fly, well of course your degree isnt going to mean anything!
Oh and Mr Buzzy, I dont think its a requirement have a degree to be going on and on about how one thinks the business should be run. Read Reporting Points!
TC
A degree is NOT a requirement, and like any company the goal posts move according to their perceived future requirements. The recruitment process is comprehensive with a computerised technical exam, crm exercise,fixed base sim ride (in the Hawker Pilot Trainer), personality interview etc. As they do not have a bond or pay for type rating system the emphasis, beyond flying ability, is on finding people who will stay in Perth and who will be at home in the Skywest family. Despite that, both Cathay and QF seem to really like poaching from XR.
The website gives details of what experience IS required for applicants.
The website gives details of what experience IS required for applicants.
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At the very least, we might see a vast improvement in the standard of the whinging here on pprune.
It'd be a refreshing change to have whinging, moaning pilots who are capable of stringing together a sentence, free of the grammatical blunders, mixed metaphors and utterly tragic spelling which is currently the norm.
I doubt this will happen, though, because most pilots are high school drop-outs, as evidenced by the popularity of make-up courses in the (very basic) subjects of physics, mathematics and English. A degree is quite another matter, again, and well beyond both their motivation and capability.
It'd be a refreshing change to have whinging, moaning pilots who are capable of stringing together a sentence, free of the grammatical blunders, mixed metaphors and utterly tragic spelling which is currently the norm.
I doubt this will happen, though, because most pilots are high school drop-outs, as evidenced by the popularity of make-up courses in the (very basic) subjects of physics, mathematics and English. A degree is quite another matter, again, and well beyond both their motivation and capability.
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academia marches on
I don't often tune in to this site but this has all hit a raw nerve with me. Yes the academics have taken over in all aspects of what used to be a great job. Well, the job is still great however the frustration of dealing with having to meet continuously changing regulations, and an over qualification of what is essentially a common sense job is too much. The situation in Oz has developed,in my opinion, over the post '89 dispute where pilots were pitted agianst each other and many would sell their soul to get that job. Too many pilots for too few positions and a fragmented industry. A union without any real muscle (and I suspect interest in teh case of G.A) and of course a govt. which has taken any chance of representation from them.
Its a common problem for so many pilots and the stress it causes. "if only you had a degree, if only you had a Space Shuttle endorsement" they continue to change the bar and all for the princley sum of $40K/yr.
I really hope that the long awaited 'pilot shortage' does eventuate for all our sakes but I'm not holding my breath. I applied for job driving bus the other day. Pay $45-55K. have to pay the motgage somehows.
I'm dispondant as are many of us at the complete lack of recognition we get for all those years of sacrifice and little return. Lets face it, its a drug.
Good luck to all of us.
Its a common problem for so many pilots and the stress it causes. "if only you had a degree, if only you had a Space Shuttle endorsement" they continue to change the bar and all for the princley sum of $40K/yr.
I really hope that the long awaited 'pilot shortage' does eventuate for all our sakes but I'm not holding my breath. I applied for job driving bus the other day. Pay $45-55K. have to pay the motgage somehows.
I'm dispondant as are many of us at the complete lack of recognition we get for all those years of sacrifice and little return. Lets face it, its a drug.
Good luck to all of us.
bigbrother Quote:
I really hope that the long awaited 'pilot shortage' does eventuate for all our sakes but I'm not holding my breath. I applied for job driving bus the other day. Pay $45-55K. have to pay the motgage somehows.
I'm dispondant as are many of us at the complete lack of recognition we get for all those years of sacrifice and little return. Lets face it, its a drug.
Oz never had or never will have a pilot shortage. Whatever aviation companies want would be pilots, will do. Oz is an affluent country and there are enough aspirants to do whatever it takes.
It seems to me that if one gets to 30 has no meaningfull assets and no likelihood of getting into the airlines they should consider their options. At least if you have a degree or some other qualification that could be considered. If not, your fodder for GA.
I really hope that the long awaited 'pilot shortage' does eventuate for all our sakes but I'm not holding my breath. I applied for job driving bus the other day. Pay $45-55K. have to pay the motgage somehows.
I'm dispondant as are many of us at the complete lack of recognition we get for all those years of sacrifice and little return. Lets face it, its a drug.
Oz never had or never will have a pilot shortage. Whatever aviation companies want would be pilots, will do. Oz is an affluent country and there are enough aspirants to do whatever it takes.
It seems to me that if one gets to 30 has no meaningfull assets and no likelihood of getting into the airlines they should consider their options. At least if you have a degree or some other qualification that could be considered. If not, your fodder for GA.
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I admit that I am one of those academic people, and I DO NOT agree that a degree is much use for flying, in itself, because it honestly does not really contribute to the actual handling skill or the management skill. If recruiters are asking for a degree, most likely it's not because they feel it's essential for being a good pilot, but because they can put any filtering mechanisms in place when there are a lot of candidates. In fact, I would question the wisdom of the recruiter if they believe that having a degree would make you a better pilot.
However, having a good practical degree, something like medicine (
) would be a damn good backup if you don't succeed in your flying career and don't want to end up working at McDonalds. In fact, an accountancy degree would probably do.
If I were a young person wanting to make a start in a flying career, an aviation degree is not something I would personally do as my first degree. I'd do something away from the aviation but (or and??) with a good earning potential (I would personally only do an occupationally relevant degree). In the meantime, I'd probably work my butt off to earn enough money to pay for flying lessons - hopefully being qualified enough for the first flying job by the time I graduate. Should I be unsuccessful in getting a flying job, at least then I'd have a decent chance of getting myself a well-enough-paid job to fly for pleasure. Should I be successful in getting a flying job, and want to study aviation at degree level, then I might then do a bachelor's degree in aviation, but more likely do a postgraduate degree.
Some would argue that it would be good to have an aviation degree so that at least one would have a decent chance of having a job that's linked to aviation. That's fine if you can accept the situation of doing a non-flying job within the aviation industry and be happy for those who have made it. But if you feel you might feel bitter, then it's best to stay away from aviation. Too many office-bods that have caused unpleasantness to pilots were ex-wannabes who were bitter. It's not good for either the office-bods or the pilots, so only take this path if you can fully accept the outcome and throw away any jealousy that you may experience.
Doing a bachelor of aviation instead of another degree as one's first degree, to me, is a bit like having all my eggs in one basket. Spread my risk by being qualified in non-aviation things will be much better.
However, having a good practical degree, something like medicine (
) would be a damn good backup if you don't succeed in your flying career and don't want to end up working at McDonalds. In fact, an accountancy degree would probably do.If I were a young person wanting to make a start in a flying career, an aviation degree is not something I would personally do as my first degree. I'd do something away from the aviation but (or and??) with a good earning potential (I would personally only do an occupationally relevant degree). In the meantime, I'd probably work my butt off to earn enough money to pay for flying lessons - hopefully being qualified enough for the first flying job by the time I graduate. Should I be unsuccessful in getting a flying job, at least then I'd have a decent chance of getting myself a well-enough-paid job to fly for pleasure. Should I be successful in getting a flying job, and want to study aviation at degree level, then I might then do a bachelor's degree in aviation, but more likely do a postgraduate degree.
Some would argue that it would be good to have an aviation degree so that at least one would have a decent chance of having a job that's linked to aviation. That's fine if you can accept the situation of doing a non-flying job within the aviation industry and be happy for those who have made it. But if you feel you might feel bitter, then it's best to stay away from aviation. Too many office-bods that have caused unpleasantness to pilots were ex-wannabes who were bitter. It's not good for either the office-bods or the pilots, so only take this path if you can fully accept the outcome and throw away any jealousy that you may experience.
Doing a bachelor of aviation instead of another degree as one's first degree, to me, is a bit like having all my eggs in one basket. Spread my risk by being qualified in non-aviation things will be much better.
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I don't think anyone is comparing having a degree, with flying experience. They are both completely different criteria. Airlines are not lowering their minimums to degree holders, it is an additional requirement.
Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation. In some cases, the specific topic of study may be beneficial to the pilot's operational role (eg. study in physics or psychology), but this is secondary the former point.
As we all agree, not holding a degree (or leaving high school early) doesn't mean someone won't be a top quality pilot, but it is an easy way to narrow down the sights and look at people with a PROVEN record of success, (it's not good for the bottom line if newbys don't make the grade).
Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation. In some cases, the specific topic of study may be beneficial to the pilot's operational role (eg. study in physics or psychology), but this is secondary the former point.
As we all agree, not holding a degree (or leaving high school early) doesn't mean someone won't be a top quality pilot, but it is an easy way to narrow down the sights and look at people with a PROVEN record of success, (it's not good for the bottom line if newbys don't make the grade).
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SKYWEST (SINGAPORE)
The majority shareholder of Skywest is Singaporean. You will find that most young Singaporeans are tertiary qualified and there is a great emphasis on academics in Singapore.
I think you will find once the Singaporeans take on a more hands on approach at the operational level. A degree will be an additional requirement.
You will also find that there are quite a number of experienced Singaporean SIA Capts. in Perth who will be retiring at age 60. These pilots could quite easily move into management positions in Skywest, they also have permanent residence in Oz and will qualify. Once that happens there will be a further push to have a degree.
I think you will find once the Singaporeans take on a more hands on approach at the operational level. A degree will be an additional requirement.
You will also find that there are quite a number of experienced Singaporean SIA Capts. in Perth who will be retiring at age 60. These pilots could quite easily move into management positions in Skywest, they also have permanent residence in Oz and will qualify. Once that happens there will be a further push to have a degree.
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Originally Posted by Cloud Cutter
Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation.
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Over and gout:
I'm not personally familiar with OZ exams but from what I have read here, a few posts refer to them as multi-guess exams. Others have posted how one could resit exams within a week, if this is so, it would not take a lot of intelligence to pass.
A degree does ensure one is reasonably intelligent and a candidate has a higher cahance of sucess on conversion courses etc. In the past stick & rudder counted for a lot, however there is a lot less emphasis on that and more on the more rounded individual.
Just because one can fly an overloaded badly maintained a/c and has luck would have it survived, doesen't qualify the pilot to fly airlines. That is why a large majority of GA pilots fail airline acceptance. Attaining a decent level of education proves you have some smarts.
I'm not personally familiar with OZ exams but from what I have read here, a few posts refer to them as multi-guess exams. Others have posted how one could resit exams within a week, if this is so, it would not take a lot of intelligence to pass.
A degree does ensure one is reasonably intelligent and a candidate has a higher cahance of sucess on conversion courses etc. In the past stick & rudder counted for a lot, however there is a lot less emphasis on that and more on the more rounded individual.
Just because one can fly an overloaded badly maintained a/c and has luck would have it survived, doesen't qualify the pilot to fly airlines. That is why a large majority of GA pilots fail airline acceptance. Attaining a decent level of education proves you have some smarts.
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Over and Gout
Yes, those things do require some level of intelligence and motivation, but the simple fact is, they are nothing in terms of difficulty compaired with a degree. The fact that you can go from nothing to CPL, MECIR and ATPL theory in under 1 year backs that up.
I don't personally hava a degree, I am just trying to be a reasonable person who looks at an argument based on it's objective merits.
Yes, those things do require some level of intelligence and motivation, but the simple fact is, they are nothing in terms of difficulty compaired with a degree. The fact that you can go from nothing to CPL, MECIR and ATPL theory in under 1 year backs that up.
I don't personally hava a degree, I am just trying to be a reasonable person who looks at an argument based on it's objective merits.
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Originally Posted by mach.865
I'm not personally familiar with OZ exams but from what I have read here, a few posts refer to them as multi-guess exams. Others have posted how one could resit exams within a week, if this is so, it would not take a lot of intelligence to pass.
Just because one can fly an overloaded badly maintained a/c and has luck would have it survived, doesen't qualify the pilot to fly airlines. That is why a large majority of GA pilots fail airline acceptance. Attaining a decent level of education proves you have some smarts.
Just because one can fly an overloaded badly maintained a/c and has luck would have it survived, doesen't qualify the pilot to fly airlines. That is why a large majority of GA pilots fail airline acceptance. Attaining a decent level of education proves you have some smarts.
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I think the reason many airlines like the applicants to have a degree is to cull the numbers of people applying for jobs.
I'm sure if there was a genuine pilot shortage the requirement for a degree would be lifted pretty quickly.....
I'm sure if there was a genuine pilot shortage the requirement for a degree would be lifted pretty quickly.....
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Originally Posted by Cloud Cutter
Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation.
It's so incredibly easy to get a degree now (I can assure you that many degrees are damn sight easier than getting an ATPL, and require far less discipline!), and I have come across so many graduates who are unintelligent, unintelligible and lacking in common sense that I've lost faith in the system somewhat.
Getting an ATPL requires more discipline, I'd say (for a start, you usually need a discipline to earn enough money to pay for it
).
In some cases, the specific topic of study may be beneficial to the pilot's operational role (eg. study in physics or psychology)
As I mentioned earlier, I believe this is just a tick in the box exercise to reduce the number of applicants required.
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Okay...
ATPL - 8 Week Course + 7 Exams
University Degree - at least three years
Any Comparison? No.
I admit not all university courses are the same however, and just taking....
Have a degree? Please tick Yes/No
....into account and nothing more is just silly. More should be looked at the content of course & how/where it was done when/if taking degrees into consideration when selecting candidates.
TC
ATPL - 8 Week Course + 7 Exams
University Degree - at least three years
Any Comparison? No.
I admit not all university courses are the same however, and just taking....
Have a degree? Please tick Yes/No
....into account and nothing more is just silly. More should be looked at the content of course & how/where it was done when/if taking degrees into consideration when selecting candidates.
TC