JetConnect??
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: .
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
H1,
My apologies in that case.
Sorry, you got hit with the same brush as the usual tossers that rant on about T&C's which they nothing about. Check J*, Jitconnict, PB, DJ, EK and Ryan threads for examples!
Cheers,
Con
My apologies in that case.
Sorry, you got hit with the same brush as the usual tossers that rant on about T&C's which they nothing about. Check J*, Jitconnict, PB, DJ, EK and Ryan threads for examples!
Cheers,
Con
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
NO worries Con...just out of interest mate who is DJ? I recognised all the rest
Personally I reckon if Jconnect can afford to pay half, they should be bonding you for the other half, I suspect that they think by making you put the cash up front they will force you to stick around for a while to get something back on your "investment"
This seems to be the case that with most of the entry level jet jobs around the world, companies are capitalising on pilots ability to incur debt on themselves, rather than investing in their employees.
Personally I reckon if Jconnect can afford to pay half, they should be bonding you for the other half, I suspect that they think by making you put the cash up front they will force you to stick around for a while to get something back on your "investment"
This seems to be the case that with most of the entry level jet jobs around the world, companies are capitalising on pilots ability to incur debt on themselves, rather than investing in their employees.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NZ
Posts: 835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
H1 DJ is Virgin Blue.
It's interesting how things are starting to move in the direction of paying for your own rating. As Con says, some (or most) of these companies actually offer pretty good pay and conditions (H1, I'm sure you know plenty of guys working for Ryanair).
In general, I'm still opposed to buying a type rating, but I'm open minded. Con, is there a training bond at Jet Connect?
It's interesting how things are starting to move in the direction of paying for your own rating. As Con says, some (or most) of these companies actually offer pretty good pay and conditions (H1, I'm sure you know plenty of guys working for Ryanair).
In general, I'm still opposed to buying a type rating, but I'm open minded. Con, is there a training bond at Jet Connect?
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hmmmmmmmm!!....nice to hear you boys think that paying for your types is [email protected],you will pay for this one and not another ...good luck on your next type rating,that you wont pay for(but probably will).....by the way next week,you start paying for the hotels you stay in.....
...good luck on your next type rating,that you wont pay for(but probably will).....by the way next week,you start paying for the hotels you stay in.....
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Cloud mate, I am utterly opposed to any pay for type rating, and yep I know a few guys at Ryanair, most of whom havent had to fork out a bean (Ryanair are VERY VERY short of guys, senior F/O's and skippers with any type of useful 737 time) presently if you've got 500hrs jet time and 2500hrs total you can expect an early upgrade and a bond.
Yeah P Boy I hear you, Ive just started with a new outfit.....been put up in a lovely hotel, allowances that are making me drool, oh yeah and a 4% payrise in my first week , and just to put the cherry on top, 6 sim sessions to get up to speed with SOP's and license check-ride. (they are even forking out for base training....circuits in the 767!..what joy
)
Yeah P Boy I hear you, Ive just started with a new outfit.....been put up in a lovely hotel, allowances that are making me drool, oh yeah and a 4% payrise in my first week
, and just to put the cherry on top, 6 sim sessions to get up to speed with SOP's and license check-ride. (they are even forking out for base training....circuits in the 767!..what joy )
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
h1......Many pilots "buy" type ratings then go look for a job,dont have a problem with that....but when you are hired by a company to fly their aircraft,then they should foot the bill,...its a cost of doing buiness,the onus is on them ....for those that say theyll pay for the first one and not another.....yeah right!!!...youve already shown your cards....but then...the best of luck to you,hope it works out for you....
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
h1......Many pilots "buy" type ratings then go look for a job,dont have a problem with that....but when you are hired by a company to fly their aircraft,then they should foot the bill,...its a cost of doing buiness,the onus is on them ....for those that say theyll pay for the first one and not another.....yeah right!!!...youve already shown your cards....but then...the best of luck to you,hope it works out for you....
IMHO a bond is a fair stand-point, yes the airline has a cost to cover, and rightly should expect a return. Im not advocating a salary reduction, but a contract based on length of service..which by the way protects both parties. Personally I think those that go and buy a type-rating are the ruination of the industry
And it has been a success...Im currently working for a UK legacy carrier
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
h1..... wasnt talking about you mate.....it was directed at a previous post...nothing personal......My point deals with the way we degrade ourselves in buying types,letting these companys off the hook and expecting big bucks,and working conditions at the end of the day.....yet we continue to erode the system we are trying to improve.....I fully realize conditions of employment are changing.....buying your types and being bonded ,seems to gaining a lot of ground,....its not doing us a lot of good....we all have choices
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: .
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P-Boy,
What was the last Type Rating/Training that you shelled out for?
And did it advance your aviation career?
I paid for my B733 type rating to move from a very stagnant Turboprop career into a Jet. It was worth every cent. I have since moved onward and upward.
And no, I wont be paying for another rating.
Cheers,
Con
What was the last Type Rating/Training that you shelled out for?
And did it advance your aviation career?
I paid for my B733 type rating to move from a very stagnant Turboprop career into a Jet. It was worth every cent. I have since moved onward and upward.
And no, I wont be paying for another rating.
Cheers,
Con
Last edited by Contract Con; 20th Mar 2006 at 22:02.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CC..well done on your part,...check your pms as I dont want sound arrogant....I have never paid for a type rating,but have taken jobs that have given me a type,and done my time for the company so as not to take and run......as I said, all the best to you and Jetconnect...if thats the way you do buisness,thats your choice....in the long run,and I have seen it many times,....when you allow these outfits do make you pay for the type....they will see it as a way to gain even greater deductions in the future...they hold you accountable,you must hold them accountable also.....you are ether walking around with blinders on or not taking any notice of what is currently happening in the industry ......by your own admission you state you will not buy another,...you obviously see the error in your thinking.....to say you dont care would be incorrect on my part......as I said before all the best in your endevour....but in 15 yrs down the road,and you are still working for peanuts,.........................................
PB
PB
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite right PB.
People who say "I won't buy another type rating" really mean "I won't buy another type rating at the moment, but as soon as I can see it advancing my career, I will". If you have done it once, you will do it again.
Such practices are slowly but surely undermining T&Cs for all pilots. Companies that used to value professional pilots, now look for new ways to screw them for every last cent, hence the companies like Ryanair where you might get paid a relatively high salary, but you have to pay for everything - car parking, uniforms, medicals, crew meals, you name it. The end result is only average pay.
The result is that pilots that used to be valued (in salary terms) as highly qualified professionals, are now treated as bus drivers (no offence to bus drivers). It can only get worse.
The ONLY redeeming feature of the Jetconnect arrangement is that they are not making you pay the full cost of the rating. However, they aren't helping you out with things that they could make cheaper - they told me, for example, that they couldn't offer discount air travel to get to the simulator (which I don't believe for a minute), no help with accomodation costs, no discounts on hire cars etc. All this stuff is available to them as it is in any airline.
Those of us who have flown in Europe have seen the other side of the coin (as have Air NZ pilots, I guess).
What the pilots who enter into these deals are doing, is wrecking it for those coming afterwards. Airlines now expect you to buy the rating, other compromises will follow. Jetconnect is a semi-exception, as noted above. There is a huge downside to this for the airlines as well as the pilots, but for now the beancounters are running the show, and - as I said - it can only get worse.
Sadly pilots, ambitious creatures that they tend to be, generally have no problem climbing over others to get the job they want. In the UK, back in the mid '90s when paying for type ratings really took off, it became standard that the only ones who got what few jobs there were, were those wealthy enough to pay for the rating. Some pretty unscrupulous airline practices followed - one airline in particular was selling type-ratings on the vague promise of a job, but they sold ten times as many ratings as they had vacancies for. That particular carrier only made a profit that year on the back of the type ratings it had sold - it can be a pretty lucrative business. Sad for all the pilots who had paid twenty grand for a rating and then had no job...
Bottom line - if that is the world you want, by all means pay for your ratings. Sometimes it is the only way forward - but it isn't good for the industry.
People who say "I won't buy another type rating" really mean "I won't buy another type rating at the moment, but as soon as I can see it advancing my career, I will". If you have done it once, you will do it again.
Such practices are slowly but surely undermining T&Cs for all pilots. Companies that used to value professional pilots, now look for new ways to screw them for every last cent, hence the companies like Ryanair where you might get paid a relatively high salary, but you have to pay for everything - car parking, uniforms, medicals, crew meals, you name it. The end result is only average pay.
The result is that pilots that used to be valued (in salary terms) as highly qualified professionals, are now treated as bus drivers (no offence to bus drivers). It can only get worse.
The ONLY redeeming feature of the Jetconnect arrangement is that they are not making you pay the full cost of the rating. However, they aren't helping you out with things that they could make cheaper - they told me, for example, that they couldn't offer discount air travel to get to the simulator (which I don't believe for a minute), no help with accomodation costs, no discounts on hire cars etc. All this stuff is available to them as it is in any airline.
Those of us who have flown in Europe have seen the other side of the coin (as have Air NZ pilots, I guess).
What the pilots who enter into these deals are doing, is wrecking it for those coming afterwards. Airlines now expect you to buy the rating, other compromises will follow. Jetconnect is a semi-exception, as noted above. There is a huge downside to this for the airlines as well as the pilots, but for now the beancounters are running the show, and - as I said - it can only get worse.
Sadly pilots, ambitious creatures that they tend to be, generally have no problem climbing over others to get the job they want. In the UK, back in the mid '90s when paying for type ratings really took off, it became standard that the only ones who got what few jobs there were, were those wealthy enough to pay for the rating. Some pretty unscrupulous airline practices followed - one airline in particular was selling type-ratings on the vague promise of a job, but they sold ten times as many ratings as they had vacancies for. That particular carrier only made a profit that year on the back of the type ratings it had sold - it can be a pretty lucrative business. Sad for all the pilots who had paid twenty grand for a rating and then had no job...
Bottom line - if that is the world you want, by all means pay for your ratings. Sometimes it is the only way forward - but it isn't good for the industry.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Destroying the industry
I recently spoke to a man who "purchased a block of 737 time" in an airline, and now is looking for a job in outback GA.
Too many airlines and charter operators are operating as flying schools and fleecing wannabe pilots. So what, you say?
So operators are operating with a continuous string of beginners, and not with experienced capable pilots as they should.
In GA a busy city flying school can be quite lucrative, but many have lost their credability, due to the now obvious oversupply of pilots, and so some of them are running an outback charter operation so they can say there are jobs to be had "out there"
So, we have charter operators with a continuous,ever changing group of beginners at the sharp end. (Most quit after a few years.) The accident figures show this. Also, the unsustainable economics of the charter world is partly caused by some of theses operators that use cheap labour to cut prices. (just like the "wetbacks" in the US)
Much of this poorly paid scramble was started by todays airline pilots when they were in GA.
It is now spreading into the major airlines.
Too many airlines and charter operators are operating as flying schools and fleecing wannabe pilots. So what, you say?
So operators are operating with a continuous string of beginners, and not with experienced capable pilots as they should.
In GA a busy city flying school can be quite lucrative, but many have lost their credability, due to the now obvious oversupply of pilots, and so some of them are running an outback charter operation so they can say there are jobs to be had "out there"
So, we have charter operators with a continuous,ever changing group of beginners at the sharp end. (Most quit after a few years.) The accident figures show this. Also, the unsustainable economics of the charter world is partly caused by some of theses operators that use cheap labour to cut prices. (just like the "wetbacks" in the US)
Much of this poorly paid scramble was started by todays airline pilots when they were in GA.
It is now spreading into the major airlines.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bushy mate...be careful who you call a wetback.....when I was "found out"...turned into the immigration boys.....I was flying a twin otter for market rates...I never undercut anybody...it was the going rate for anybody that flew this stuff....hate to admit it,but my mate was an aussie who was also illegal....we never screwed anybody over,especially the other american piots.....who would have turned us in sooner if we had undercut them..
Things are certainly different,but making backdoor deals was not an option....you say the pilots of yesterday are partly responsible for todays woes...maybe so....but the new breed of mgt has been the catalyst for most of our demise and problems........
I still have the t-shirt the boys gave me as I was escorted to the Anchorage Airport being deported back to kiwi.....it says ...NOT ALL WETBACKS ARE MEXICAN.....PB
Things are certainly different,but making backdoor deals was not an option....you say the pilots of yesterday are partly responsible for todays woes...maybe so....but the new breed of mgt has been the catalyst for most of our demise and problems........
I still have the t-shirt the boys gave me as I was escorted to the Anchorage Airport being deported back to kiwi.....it says ...NOT ALL WETBACKS ARE MEXICAN.....PB
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
God we could start a whole new thread on the INS (I think they learnt the book from Himler circa 1942)
Back on subject for a moment....how stable is Jetcon at the mo? first you hear they've layed guys off, next thing they're recruiting..so whats happening?
Being brutally honest, I considered the JetC deal (not for reasons of career advancement..which is why I think this deal exists, and where they will source most of their crews...but because it seemingly offered a way to get back to NZ and still fly jets) on balance though Im far better off earning ££'s, getting spoilt in a stable profitable Legacy carrier..and looking at ways to bugger the UK tax system!
I stand by my comments regarding paying for a T/Rating, and I echo the sentiments of PB & MOR, Con you did what you felt was necessary and its paid dividends.
Personally I think airlines are making a rod for their own backs, the evidence suggests (particularly in Europe) that most crews view the Lo Co job as a transitional phase..something to get some time on and then bugger off to the bigger boys, obviously with the caveat of Southwest Airlines in the US. If the current trends continue, Lo Co's here are going to struggle to crew aircraft (which is already happening), with a corresponding improvement in T & C's....which is exactly what I predict will happen in NZ and Oz at some point! (i.e in about 7-10yrs time )
So all, dont hold your breath anytime soon!..then again if a 737 operator needs pilots and is prepared to pay a good whack..expect the guys who have paid for a T/Rating to show no company spirit
and bugger off for the better money.
Just my thoughts and observations
Back on subject for a moment....how stable is Jetcon at the mo? first you hear they've layed guys off, next thing they're recruiting..so whats happening?
Being brutally honest, I considered the JetC deal (not for reasons of career advancement..which is why I think this deal exists, and where they will source most of their crews...but because it seemingly offered a way to get back to NZ and still fly jets) on balance though Im far better off earning ££'s, getting spoilt in a stable profitable Legacy carrier..and looking at ways to bugger the UK tax system!
I stand by my comments regarding paying for a T/Rating, and I echo the sentiments of PB & MOR, Con you did what you felt was necessary and its paid dividends.
Personally I think airlines are making a rod for their own backs, the evidence suggests (particularly in Europe) that most crews view the Lo Co job as a transitional phase..something to get some time on and then bugger off to the bigger boys, obviously with the caveat of Southwest Airlines in the US. If the current trends continue, Lo Co's here are going to struggle to crew aircraft (which is already happening), with a corresponding improvement in T & C's....which is exactly what I predict will happen in NZ and Oz at some point! (i.e in about 7-10yrs time
)So all, dont hold your breath anytime soon!..then again if a 737 operator needs pilots and is prepared to pay a good whack..expect the guys who have paid for a T/Rating to show no company spirit
and bugger off for the better money.Just my thoughts and observations
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: with the porangi,s in Pohara
Age: 66
Posts: 983
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
H1....reasonable indeed....Southwest is a different animal...yes they do make you pay for the type...the big differences are employee pay,loyalty,conditions,attitude,time to upgrade,philosophy....are generally in the pilots favour.
Most blokes who work for Southwest stay,and they stay because of a vested interest,they dont up and leave,their turnover rate is very low .Their last contract vote showed ares of discontent,but they are so far ahead of anybody,money wise,they are in a class of their own....you would be hard pressed to compare them with other carriers trying to do the same thing.
Generally,carriers that make you pay for your training,stick it to you when contract time comes around....horse and carrot stuff....old school,old fools...new school,new fools(but I reckon more foolish)......tuti...PB
Most blokes who work for Southwest stay,and they stay because of a vested interest,they dont up and leave,their turnover rate is very low .Their last contract vote showed ares of discontent,but they are so far ahead of anybody,money wise,they are in a class of their own....you would be hard pressed to compare them with other carriers trying to do the same thing.
Generally,carriers that make you pay for your training,stick it to you when contract time comes around....horse and carrot stuff....old school,old fools...new school,new fools(but I reckon more foolish)......tuti...PB
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Getting there..!
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like Em
Been at JC for a year and I like it. Good people, Good standards, Good Aircraft (old but good) and the pay is way better than GA with fairly fair rostering. The Type rating was done in Australia and it was comprehensive and at a good price. Future looks bright so I am staying on board for a while.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Where my head rests
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm flying OS at present would like to come back to NZ but as far as I can see I've only got 2 choices Air NZ or JC. You guys seem to be having a hard time down there. In europe it's a pilot market at the moment, loads of movement and opportunities.
Kiwi Red. Loads of opportunties? Don't you need to have "Right of Abode" to get jobs in Europe and UK in particular? And what are the costs and time and effort involved in obtaining a British or EU ATPL before someone offers you a job?