JETSTAR PILOTS
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Not to make anyone mad, but I'll make more this year flying a Cessna product than your Jetstar agreement is proposing to its wide-body captains. Our top out on the BBJ, a 737 variant is higher than QF pays its most senior mainline to fly 744s
Your disclaimer about not wanting to make "anyone mad" clearly shows you are wanting to validate your miserable job even by comparing your G.A wages to those of a QF skipper.
So, If your job and life are so amazing, quit telling us about it and bugger off to enjoy it! Of course assuming you have friends that aren't tired of your boasting to enjoy life with!!! Leave us miserable Aussies to our own ruin!
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No, actually its a statement of fact Buzzy. We have Captains here that will make over 250K...and that's US dollars. Line check airmen and extended international tours even more. Wouldn't surprise me if some will go over US300k with the new contract we just signed!
Did the beer commercial link piss you off that badly mate?!
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry man, I didn't mean to upset your sunny Sunday!
Did the beer commercial link piss you off that badly mate?!
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry man, I didn't mean to upset your sunny Sunday!
Grandpa Aerotart
Well Chris I don't necesarily dissagree with SOME of what you have to say above but I do dissagree with your characterisation of LCC pilots as lesser mortals because they work for LCC...and as for the audio file
LCC pilots are not responsible for routing etc either...they take the aeroplane where they are told...just like you do.
Perhaps comparing a premium corporate service aimed at MULTI MILLIONAIRES and BILLIONAIRES to Jetstar is apples and oranges....but I do remember you guys picketing your boss.
BTW I know they are different franchises but are we expected to believe that Warren Buffett was happy to pay 3 times what the Netjets ME pilots are payed for doing the same job in the same aircraft, flying the same passengers? But of course without the threat in the US, unlike Saudi, of being kidnapped and beheaded on the internet.
As it stands the experience base across Jet* is quite high in general hrs terms...if not always in Jet hrs...the C&Ting system is VERY experienced on jets.....in fact the ex Ansett coup is complete at Jetstar.
If they vote down the EBA I guess there are only two possible outcomes.
1/. QF caves and pays more...QF have told them that will not happen.
2/. QF goes greenfields initially using it's own A330 pilots seconded to the op rather like Australian Airlines...and probably keeps Australian alive a little longer to help out too(could if NEEDED use the Australian AOC I suppose)...while it recruits pilots for J* International.
It advertises widely and gets inundated with applications from A330/A340 longhaul pilots from EK..many, many captains and lots of SFO's with previous jet command on narrow body who are presently being done over by EKs policy of DECs....and a bunch more FOs with no previous jet command but with 3000+ A330 FO time on longhaul ops....guys who could be captains, all things being equal, VERY QUICKLY....other guys would come from GF and you WILL get applications from guys from all manner of other airlines including where I work...very experienced A320 pilots, both captains and SFO.
They identify 30 captains and 30 SFOs who average 12000 hrs and 8000 hrs respectively as an initial TYPE RATED and VERY EXPERIENCED on TYPE intake....and another 20 of each in the same categories for employment over the next 12 mths....and 10 more of each for the 12 mths after that.
These pilots will require about 4 weeks induction training, standardisation sims and maybe 8 sectors to check to line....they have flown into all the countries planned on the route network many, many times....slowly they check to line releasing the QF A330 pilots and Australian Airlines 767 pilots to return to QF mainline in an orderly fashion rather than one big rush.
After 2 or 3 years Jetstar International is staffed with very experienced pilots...in fact in terms of relevant experience they are more experienced than 90% of current Jetstar pilots...including quite a few who had previous 777 commands before their A330 commands or flew as SFO on the Boeing before the Airbus...the 787 will be no mystery...and recruiting returns to a normal pace...no more DECs...recruitment open to all who have the cash for the type rating...promotion times stretch out to 10yrs because the average age of captains is so low...like VB....QF are happy...not much upgrade training required, stable pilot population...at least for about 10 more years when there will be a huge rush of retirements...but that will be someone else's problem in the usual beancounter way.
It would not be unprecedented for the QF beanies to offer such DECs a LITTLE bit more than was on offer to the Jet* pilots to absolutely ensure they get the numbers and 'quality'....but it would be too late for the Jet* incumbants.
QF WILL GET those applications believe me...there are expat Ozzies scattered all over the globe, mostly on min rest layovers with EK, who are praying for the Jetstar people to vote down this EBA....guys who have had a gutfull of expat life in the sandpit and who are willing to take a pay cut for a perceived lifestyle improvement...who's kids are approaching high school age and they don't want to put them in boarding schools...or just would like them to enjoy the freedoms they enjoyed growing up as teenagers rather than the skewed expat teenage life....who's wives are threatening to take the kids home and who face the commuting nightmare...or divorce and seperation from their children...even one guy I know who is still basically happy in the ME is tempted....although he will most likely stay and benefit from the resignations around him....if he had a house paid off in OZ it would probably be a different story.
The above scenarios are the almost daily concerns of very many expats with families.
Then you have the single guys who have been stacking away the cash for 6 or 8 years, are captains in their early 30s, and would love the opportunity to go home and live in one of their houses and have all their days off in Oz doing Oz things..drinking beer on their boat or at their local while their negatively geared investment properties reduce their tax bill and they continue to almost net what they were overseas anyway...I know guys like this.
Alternatively the J* pilots can vote yes and at least maintain some control over their lives....one guy I know joined Impulse on a punt as a DEC on the 717 when they first got them...on 90 odd K...last year he grossed double that as a senior checky and is a very happy fella....he was a returning expat who took a gamble and it has been a huge win.
It will be interesting to watch....best of luck all involved...it's your decision in the end....I offer only a perspective.
LCC pilots are not responsible for routing etc either...they take the aeroplane where they are told...just like you do.Perhaps comparing a premium corporate service aimed at MULTI MILLIONAIRES and BILLIONAIRES to Jetstar is apples and oranges....but I do remember you guys picketing your boss.
BTW I know they are different franchises but are we expected to believe that Warren Buffett was happy to pay 3 times what the Netjets ME pilots are payed for doing the same job in the same aircraft, flying the same passengers? But of course without the threat in the US, unlike Saudi, of being kidnapped and beheaded on the internet.
As it stands the experience base across Jet* is quite high in general hrs terms...if not always in Jet hrs...the C&Ting system is VERY experienced on jets.....in fact the ex Ansett coup is complete at Jetstar.
If they vote down the EBA I guess there are only two possible outcomes.
1/. QF caves and pays more...QF have told them that will not happen.
2/. QF goes greenfields initially using it's own A330 pilots seconded to the op rather like Australian Airlines...and probably keeps Australian alive a little longer to help out too(could if NEEDED use the Australian AOC I suppose)...while it recruits pilots for J* International.
It advertises widely and gets inundated with applications from A330/A340 longhaul pilots from EK..many, many captains and lots of SFO's with previous jet command on narrow body who are presently being done over by EKs policy of DECs....and a bunch more FOs with no previous jet command but with 3000+ A330 FO time on longhaul ops....guys who could be captains, all things being equal, VERY QUICKLY....other guys would come from GF and you WILL get applications from guys from all manner of other airlines including where I work...very experienced A320 pilots, both captains and SFO.
They identify 30 captains and 30 SFOs who average 12000 hrs and 8000 hrs respectively as an initial TYPE RATED and VERY EXPERIENCED on TYPE intake....and another 20 of each in the same categories for employment over the next 12 mths....and 10 more of each for the 12 mths after that.
These pilots will require about 4 weeks induction training, standardisation sims and maybe 8 sectors to check to line....they have flown into all the countries planned on the route network many, many times....slowly they check to line releasing the QF A330 pilots and Australian Airlines 767 pilots to return to QF mainline in an orderly fashion rather than one big rush.
After 2 or 3 years Jetstar International is staffed with very experienced pilots...in fact in terms of relevant experience they are more experienced than 90% of current Jetstar pilots...including quite a few who had previous 777 commands before their A330 commands or flew as SFO on the Boeing before the Airbus...the 787 will be no mystery...and recruiting returns to a normal pace...no more DECs...recruitment open to all who have the cash for the type rating...promotion times stretch out to 10yrs because the average age of captains is so low...like VB....QF are happy...not much upgrade training required, stable pilot population...at least for about 10 more years when there will be a huge rush of retirements...but that will be someone else's problem in the usual beancounter way.
It would not be unprecedented for the QF beanies to offer such DECs a LITTLE bit more than was on offer to the Jet* pilots to absolutely ensure they get the numbers and 'quality'....but it would be too late for the Jet* incumbants.
QF WILL GET those applications believe me...there are expat Ozzies scattered all over the globe, mostly on min rest layovers with EK, who are praying for the Jetstar people to vote down this EBA....guys who have had a gutfull of expat life in the sandpit and who are willing to take a pay cut for a perceived lifestyle improvement...who's kids are approaching high school age and they don't want to put them in boarding schools...or just would like them to enjoy the freedoms they enjoyed growing up as teenagers rather than the skewed expat teenage life....who's wives are threatening to take the kids home and who face the commuting nightmare...or divorce and seperation from their children...even one guy I know who is still basically happy in the ME is tempted....although he will most likely stay and benefit from the resignations around him....if he had a house paid off in OZ it would probably be a different story.
The above scenarios are the almost daily concerns of very many expats with families.
Then you have the single guys who have been stacking away the cash for 6 or 8 years, are captains in their early 30s, and would love the opportunity to go home and live in one of their houses and have all their days off in Oz doing Oz things..drinking beer on their boat or at their local while their negatively geared investment properties reduce their tax bill and they continue to almost net what they were overseas anyway...I know guys like this.
Alternatively the J* pilots can vote yes and at least maintain some control over their lives....one guy I know joined Impulse on a punt as a DEC on the 717 when they first got them...on 90 odd K...last year he grossed double that as a senior checky and is a very happy fella....he was a returning expat who took a gamble and it has been a huge win.
It will be interesting to watch....best of luck all involved...it's your decision in the end....I offer only a perspective.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 26th Feb 2006 at 04:52.
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Guys the audio link was supposed to be a joke, but I guess it struck a chord..or hit a nerve somewhere!
Oh yeah, we had a long and hard fought battle for our new contract. We should be proud of that and our boss respects the fact that we didn't roll over and play dead.
Chimbu, I can't really comment on other operators, but I know there are many airlines having a tough go of it. It's not a happy industry to be in with the challenges of fuel and security alone.
It's not a question of looking down at LCCs. Southwest is an LCC that pays higher than almost anyone, yet they haven't lost money since 1971. Their growth has been controlled, they have crossed over into the business market quite well and they are a highly, highly respected company.
Oh yeah, we had a long and hard fought battle for our new contract. We should be proud of that and our boss respects the fact that we didn't roll over and play dead.
Chimbu, I can't really comment on other operators, but I know there are many airlines having a tough go of it. It's not a happy industry to be in with the challenges of fuel and security alone.
It's not a question of looking down at LCCs. Southwest is an LCC that pays higher than almost anyone, yet they haven't lost money since 1971. Their growth has been controlled, they have crossed over into the business market quite well and they are a highly, highly respected company.
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Good luck with your decision on this new EBA. Possibly it will go through, and with that possibility goes the future fortunes of many, both at QF mainline and those wishing to pay competitive wages on the same routes.
One thing the Budweiser ad' shows us is that the general public can see through most of it for what it really is, pretty quickly. At the end of the day it's not about how others see us, but how we view ourselves.
To not get more money in this new EBA is not unforgivable, but not attempting to do so, is.
Many employers here tried Pay-For-Training and employment contracts in the form of promissory notes. Almost nobody does it now because most crews wont agree to it and most employers realise that an environment of trust and mutual respect is required to operate a jet safely.
Before any final hope of a world standard of remuneration is flushed down the dunny, hopefully you will see that too!
Cheers!
One thing the Budweiser ad' shows us is that the general public can see through most of it for what it really is, pretty quickly. At the end of the day it's not about how others see us, but how we view ourselves.
To not get more money in this new EBA is not unforgivable, but not attempting to do so, is.
Many employers here tried Pay-For-Training and employment contracts in the form of promissory notes. Almost nobody does it now because most crews wont agree to it and most employers realise that an environment of trust and mutual respect is required to operate a jet safely.
Before any final hope of a world standard of remuneration is flushed down the dunny, hopefully you will see that too!
Cheers!
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 26th Feb 2006 at 14:51.
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Reproduced for consideration without comment:
Dear Jetstar Colleague,
Re: Jetstar Vote
As you will be aware, a variation to the existing Jetstar Certified Agreement has been put to all Jetstar pilots. This variation, if accepted, will enable Jetstar pilots to crew international A330 operations. You may not be aware, however, that the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) wrote to our Jetstar pilot members, advising in essence that:
The agreement with Jetstar does not give you the pay and conditions that you deserve. Don’t vote for an agreement that undervalues your ability, and your profession. AIPA urges you to reject this agreement.
Subsequent to this letter to our members, AIPA has had discussions with some members of the Jetstar Pilots Council and has put the following position forward:
.AIPA seeks acceptable standards of remuneration and conditions of work for all pilots in the Qantas Group.
.In achieving this goal, AIPA does not distinguish between pilots who are Qantas long haul, Qantas short haul, Qantas Jetstar or Qantas Regional.
.AIPA supports fair conditions for all pilots in the Qantas Group, including Jetstar pilots.
.The terms dictated by Qantas for acceptance by Jetstar pilots were allegedly made to the Jetstar Pilots Council under the threat of using imported contract labour from the US. This is unacceptable, unworkable and unlawful. Despite newspaper comments to the contrary, these allegations have been reconfirmed.
.Notwithstanding the MOU agreement covering Jetstar flying by mainline pilots, AIPA has been excluded from any participation in the negotiation of the proposed variation.
.The Qantas variation document itself is deceptive and seeks to downplay its intended application to long haul flying under references to wide-bodied aircraft.
AIPA has now sought advice on the remedies available to Qantas and Jetstar pilots in this situation and, amongst other things, has decided to invite all Jetstar pilots seeking industrial representation to contact AIPA on a confidential basis to discuss the way forward. AIPA will stand behind Jetstar pilots, whether AIPA members or not, who vote to reject the proposal.
Please contact EDITto register your interest.
AIPA is confident that a positive outcome to genuine negotiations is achievable.
With regards,
Captain Ian Woods
AIPA President
Edited to remove contact details. Please exercise more caution when cut-and-pasting.
Woomera (Eastern States)
Dear Jetstar Colleague,
Re: Jetstar Vote
As you will be aware, a variation to the existing Jetstar Certified Agreement has been put to all Jetstar pilots. This variation, if accepted, will enable Jetstar pilots to crew international A330 operations. You may not be aware, however, that the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) wrote to our Jetstar pilot members, advising in essence that:
The agreement with Jetstar does not give you the pay and conditions that you deserve. Don’t vote for an agreement that undervalues your ability, and your profession. AIPA urges you to reject this agreement.
Subsequent to this letter to our members, AIPA has had discussions with some members of the Jetstar Pilots Council and has put the following position forward:
.AIPA seeks acceptable standards of remuneration and conditions of work for all pilots in the Qantas Group.
.In achieving this goal, AIPA does not distinguish between pilots who are Qantas long haul, Qantas short haul, Qantas Jetstar or Qantas Regional.
.AIPA supports fair conditions for all pilots in the Qantas Group, including Jetstar pilots.
.The terms dictated by Qantas for acceptance by Jetstar pilots were allegedly made to the Jetstar Pilots Council under the threat of using imported contract labour from the US. This is unacceptable, unworkable and unlawful. Despite newspaper comments to the contrary, these allegations have been reconfirmed.
.Notwithstanding the MOU agreement covering Jetstar flying by mainline pilots, AIPA has been excluded from any participation in the negotiation of the proposed variation.
.The Qantas variation document itself is deceptive and seeks to downplay its intended application to long haul flying under references to wide-bodied aircraft.
AIPA has now sought advice on the remedies available to Qantas and Jetstar pilots in this situation and, amongst other things, has decided to invite all Jetstar pilots seeking industrial representation to contact AIPA on a confidential basis to discuss the way forward. AIPA will stand behind Jetstar pilots, whether AIPA members or not, who vote to reject the proposal.
Please contact EDITto register your interest.
AIPA is confident that a positive outcome to genuine negotiations is achievable.
With regards,
Captain Ian Woods
AIPA President
Edited to remove contact details. Please exercise more caution when cut-and-pasting.
Woomera (Eastern States)
Last edited by Woomera; 26th Feb 2006 at 22:37.
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Reproduced for consideration without comment:
THE AUSTRALIAN
Friday 24 February 2006
Jetstar pilots' deal
JETSTAR chief executive Alan Joyce last night rejected claims by the Australian and International Pilots Association that the company had threatened to contract its flying to a North American labour hire company if pilots did not agree to a proposed deal for Jetstar International. He said the tough negotiations had reached an agreement the Jetstar pilots council was happy with. ``We very much have a co-operative arrangement with them and there's absolutely no truth to the claim that North American labour hire companies are being considered in any way,'' Mr Joyce said. The AIPA claims were in a letter urging Jetstar pilots to reject the Jetstar International deal, which will see long-haul pilots paid about $100,000 a year less than their Qantas counterparts.
Qantas talks off
A SUDDEN decision by Qantas to cancel meetings with union representatives fuelled speculation yesterday that the Flying Kangaroo has been spooked by comments by federal government ministers about keeping at least 2500 maintenance jobs in Australia. Qantas put off until March 6 enterprise bargaining talks due yesterday with two maintenance unions and cancelled a briefing for senior union officials on its wide-body heavy maintenance business. However, Qantas human relations boss Kevin Brown said the maintenance briefing was cancelled because a decision on the maintenance jobs had not yet been made. He said changes to enterprise bargaining schedules were not unusual and nothing should be read into the postponement.
Edited to remove image link which requires user ID and login.
Woomera (Eastern States)
Thanks for the help Woomera
.
Cortex
THE AUSTRALIAN
Friday 24 February 2006
Jetstar pilots' deal
JETSTAR chief executive Alan Joyce last night rejected claims by the Australian and International Pilots Association that the company had threatened to contract its flying to a North American labour hire company if pilots did not agree to a proposed deal for Jetstar International. He said the tough negotiations had reached an agreement the Jetstar pilots council was happy with. ``We very much have a co-operative arrangement with them and there's absolutely no truth to the claim that North American labour hire companies are being considered in any way,'' Mr Joyce said. The AIPA claims were in a letter urging Jetstar pilots to reject the Jetstar International deal, which will see long-haul pilots paid about $100,000 a year less than their Qantas counterparts.
Qantas talks off
A SUDDEN decision by Qantas to cancel meetings with union representatives fuelled speculation yesterday that the Flying Kangaroo has been spooked by comments by federal government ministers about keeping at least 2500 maintenance jobs in Australia. Qantas put off until March 6 enterprise bargaining talks due yesterday with two maintenance unions and cancelled a briefing for senior union officials on its wide-body heavy maintenance business. However, Qantas human relations boss Kevin Brown said the maintenance briefing was cancelled because a decision on the maintenance jobs had not yet been made. He said changes to enterprise bargaining schedules were not unusual and nothing should be read into the postponement.
Edited to remove image link which requires user ID and login.
Woomera (Eastern States)
Thanks for the help Woomera
.Cortex
Last edited by cortex; 26th Feb 2006 at 23:10.
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If I were a gambling man right now, I'd say Mr Dixon is about to get pushed out of office. It's not about xenophobia, its about the very ideals of being an Australian that you don't screw ya' mates!
Running maintenance up to China and threatening to import American labour will do nothing to support the proud traditions of the Australian icon, QANTAS.
I would not be too worried about getting replaced if I were a Jetstar Pilot; I'd be more worried about getting replaced if I were Mr Dixon.
This is no way to carry on an 85 year tradition of excellence, nor is it the definition of what it means to be an Australian.
Running maintenance up to China and threatening to import American labour will do nothing to support the proud traditions of the Australian icon, QANTAS.
I would not be too worried about getting replaced if I were a Jetstar Pilot; I'd be more worried about getting replaced if I were Mr Dixon.
This is no way to carry on an 85 year tradition of excellence, nor is it the definition of what it means to be an Australian.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 26th Feb 2006 at 22:49.
Nunc est bibendum
Interesting that AIPA engages the J* crew directly and QF responds by going via the media. It wasn't that long ago that AIPA copped a bit of a hammering from QF management for allegedly going to the media to do business. Yet again it highlights that what is good for the goose, ain't necessarily so for the gander! 
Quaint
Chris Higgins,
Allow me to politely inform you that you haven't got a clue about how companies work - whether they be Australian or not!
You certainly are not a gambling man. Some advice: Don't make that bet that GD is about to be pushed out of office!
Also, your quaint notion that the "very ideals of being an Australian that you don't screw ya' mates!" is in need of some revision. Australians screw their mates just as much as other nationalities!
Allow me to politely inform you that you haven't got a clue about how companies work - whether they be Australian or not!
You certainly are not a gambling man. Some advice: Don't make that bet that GD is about to be pushed out of office!
Also, your quaint notion that the "very ideals of being an Australian that you don't screw ya' mates!" is in need of some revision. Australians screw their mates just as much as other nationalities!
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Aircraft,
I'm sorry but my Bachelor of Science Degree in Business Administration, says that I do have a clue how businesses work. This is exactly the reason that my wife and I own one of the largest online retailing specialty businesses of its type in the world. Its also the reason I have investments in Australia and North America.
Back on track with regards to aviation matters...
The very reason that Australians travel on Qantas is that they associate the Qantas brand as uniquely Australian and of superior safety than other nations flag carriers. To export the brand name and have somebody licence it off as a cheap copy will not "fly" in the Australian culture.
Whether you have political views in favour of the Chinese or not, it doesn't really matter. If you exported the maintenance to India or Canada, it would have the same result as trying to recruit from abroad to fill your Olympic Team. The product is no longer considered genuine in the court of public opinion.
People are already saying, "Why should I fly Qantas, if its not going to be Australian anymore?"
As somebody who has worked in aircraft maintenance, there has been a universally unsolved problem with maintenance oversight on the part of certifying authorities. I saw the same problems with CASA in Port Macquarie as I did with the FAA in John F Kennedy International, where I was the union safety chairman.
This is a major problem for the future of Qantas if they try to export an issue of safety in maintenance to a culture that struggles to take care of their own oversight, and hide behind "saving face". I for one will not fly on Qantas, nor will my family, if this program of exporting to China, such a vital link in the safety chain goes through.
Mr Dixon has done very little for your share price. The behemoth from France may or may not work out. The workers of the Qantas groups and the shareholders will pay dearly for this ego trip if it doesn't meet performance and reliability goals in much the same way that American Airlines did with the MD-11.
Aircraft, you have inferred that any business that doesn't treat its shareholders, employees and customers with integrity is a dinosaur now. I see you are only 21 and from Perth. I sure as hell hope you never get into in airline management, because Sir, you certainly have no clue!
If there is any hope of getting Qantas back on track..and on top; there are changes that must be made at the top and almost immediately.
I'm sorry but my Bachelor of Science Degree in Business Administration, says that I do have a clue how businesses work. This is exactly the reason that my wife and I own one of the largest online retailing specialty businesses of its type in the world. Its also the reason I have investments in Australia and North America.
Back on track with regards to aviation matters...
The very reason that Australians travel on Qantas is that they associate the Qantas brand as uniquely Australian and of superior safety than other nations flag carriers. To export the brand name and have somebody licence it off as a cheap copy will not "fly" in the Australian culture.
Whether you have political views in favour of the Chinese or not, it doesn't really matter. If you exported the maintenance to India or Canada, it would have the same result as trying to recruit from abroad to fill your Olympic Team. The product is no longer considered genuine in the court of public opinion.
People are already saying, "Why should I fly Qantas, if its not going to be Australian anymore?"
As somebody who has worked in aircraft maintenance, there has been a universally unsolved problem with maintenance oversight on the part of certifying authorities. I saw the same problems with CASA in Port Macquarie as I did with the FAA in John F Kennedy International, where I was the union safety chairman.
This is a major problem for the future of Qantas if they try to export an issue of safety in maintenance to a culture that struggles to take care of their own oversight, and hide behind "saving face". I for one will not fly on Qantas, nor will my family, if this program of exporting to China, such a vital link in the safety chain goes through.
Mr Dixon has done very little for your share price. The behemoth from France may or may not work out. The workers of the Qantas groups and the shareholders will pay dearly for this ego trip if it doesn't meet performance and reliability goals in much the same way that American Airlines did with the MD-11.
Aircraft, you have inferred that any business that doesn't treat its shareholders, employees and customers with integrity is a dinosaur now. I see you are only 21 and from Perth. I sure as hell hope you never get into in airline management, because Sir, you certainly have no clue!
If there is any hope of getting Qantas back on track..and on top; there are changes that must be made at the top and almost immediately.
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 27th Feb 2006 at 13:54.
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Originally Posted by Keg
Interesting that AIPA engages the J* crew directly and QF responds by going via the media. It wasn't that long ago that AIPA copped a bit of a hammering from QF management for allegedly going to the media to do business. Yet again it highlights that what is good for the goose, ain't necessarily so for the gander!
This may explain why non-management representative groups (did anyone say 'unions'?!) might struggle to get airtime to put grievances forward. Journos might be impartial but they know who pays their kids' school fees.
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Taildragger-
This is a terrible mistake on the part of QF management. Journos will likely turn on their own when they feel they are being taken for fools. GD may have been a journo' too, but it's only a matter of time before he is seen as a turncoat on his profession and just another politician looking for a free ride on his own agenda.
This is a terrible mistake on the part of QF management. Journos will likely turn on their own when they feel they are being taken for fools. GD may have been a journo' too, but it's only a matter of time before he is seen as a turncoat on his profession and just another politician looking for a free ride on his own agenda.
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Chris Higgins,
I have followed some of your posts recently and have refrained from joining the “Jetstar pilots hold the future of airline flying to ransome” debate nonsense but your recent comment has moved me to reply.
“Sadly, we are constantly shown that accident rates are higher for carriers that introduce lower pay scales.”
What utter garbage. To use the North American airline industry as an example, as you have done, reminds us that Delta was in serious trouble after a string of accidents back in the mid eighties to the point of almost being shutdown by the FAA. Another example would be when Pan Am was crashing 707’s like they were being given away for free. Both of these carriers paid premium salaries and indeed Delta was one of the highest paying airlines in the US. Fedex is another example of an airline where clearly salary levels work inversely proportional to MD11’s going bump in the night. You mention USair as an example of an airline that suffered from a spate of accidents some years ago and yet over at HP during the same period, there were no hull losses at an airline where flight crew were being paid considerably less. Interestingly, American has one of the poorest safety records in the US and yet some of the highest aircrew salaries.
Chris, the entire thrust of your contribution on pprune wrt Jetstar is a suggestion that Jetstar pilots are of inferior quality or experience, simply as a result of receiving a lower income than their mainline equivalent. Do you know what experience levels the crew actually have at Jetstar? Are you in a position to judge how many hours in a logbook makes a quality pilot? What do you think is a minimum number of hours logged in order to move to the lhs of an automated aircraft and how do you quantify such a number?
Lookin Down - “Few other professionals would have to face the prospect of the equivalent of maybe not passing that next six monthly sim ride”.
After being in 3 airlines over the last 12 years, I have only ever seen a couple of pilots sacked as a result of poor job performance. Do you really head off to do your recurrent sim check thinking “gee, I could get sacked if I make a mistake”. I don’t think you do.
I have followed some of your posts recently and have refrained from joining the “Jetstar pilots hold the future of airline flying to ransome” debate nonsense but your recent comment has moved me to reply.
“Sadly, we are constantly shown that accident rates are higher for carriers that introduce lower pay scales.”
What utter garbage. To use the North American airline industry as an example, as you have done, reminds us that Delta was in serious trouble after a string of accidents back in the mid eighties to the point of almost being shutdown by the FAA. Another example would be when Pan Am was crashing 707’s like they were being given away for free. Both of these carriers paid premium salaries and indeed Delta was one of the highest paying airlines in the US. Fedex is another example of an airline where clearly salary levels work inversely proportional to MD11’s going bump in the night. You mention USair as an example of an airline that suffered from a spate of accidents some years ago and yet over at HP during the same period, there were no hull losses at an airline where flight crew were being paid considerably less. Interestingly, American has one of the poorest safety records in the US and yet some of the highest aircrew salaries.
Chris, the entire thrust of your contribution on pprune wrt Jetstar is a suggestion that Jetstar pilots are of inferior quality or experience, simply as a result of receiving a lower income than their mainline equivalent. Do you know what experience levels the crew actually have at Jetstar? Are you in a position to judge how many hours in a logbook makes a quality pilot? What do you think is a minimum number of hours logged in order to move to the lhs of an automated aircraft and how do you quantify such a number?
Lookin Down - “Few other professionals would have to face the prospect of the equivalent of maybe not passing that next six monthly sim ride”.
After being in 3 airlines over the last 12 years, I have only ever seen a couple of pilots sacked as a result of poor job performance. Do you really head off to do your recurrent sim check thinking “gee, I could get sacked if I make a mistake”. I don’t think you do.
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I gotta say, I have been biting my tongue for the last few days with some of the things Chris has espoused.
Thanks for speaking up Oicur12.
I will continue to bite my tongue.....
Thanks for speaking up Oicur12.
I will continue to bite my tongue.....
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Colleagues,
With regard to Chimbu chuckles writings on bean counters and others perception of our profession and our level of remuneration.....
The next time a ground crew member, FA, accountant, bloke at a bbq etc says to you "Yea but it's all automatic isn't it? You guys don't work, you don't even do the landing". Instead of smiling or mumbling a half hearted response, let them know the facts of our profession.
When people mention "yea but most crashes are pilot error", mention the incidents in which the pilots have saved the aircraft and occupants. These incidents happen every day.
We need to resist the temptation to talk down our profession/remuneration, I don't hear doctors, accountants, CEO's or magistrates doing it.
Most people know what doctors(insert profession) do and how they got there. We need to educate people on what we as pilots do and how we got there.
Best Regards
With regard to Chimbu chuckles writings on bean counters and others perception of our profession and our level of remuneration.....
The next time a ground crew member, FA, accountant, bloke at a bbq etc says to you "Yea but it's all automatic isn't it? You guys don't work, you don't even do the landing". Instead of smiling or mumbling a half hearted response, let them know the facts of our profession.
- The vast majority of T/O and Landings are manual.
- We land a 65t, 85t, 100t etc machine at 200kmph on a piece of tarmac, in all sorts of weather conditions, the machine is worth US$65, A$85, A$100 million with 100, 200,400 POB.
- We work 8-11 hour shifts nearly every time we sign on.
- Our work space is in a small locked room at 8000' with large amounts of radiation.
- The aircraft is travelling 800kmph+ at 40,000’ with a -65 degree temperature. It is a harsh environment if something goes wrong.
- We can’t leave our ‘office’ for lunch or a coffee/smoke break, we don’t do corporate lunch’s.
- We too take our work home, we spend significant amounts of time updating Jepps/company manuals and brushing up on CASA/company regulations and aircraft systems. Or writing the odd incident report.
- Yes we have overnights in exotic places like Perth, but we don't go home every night to catch up on house jobs, kids and the washing.
- No we don’t work as many hours as doctors, however a doctor works on one patient at a time with four, five, six or more other doctors available for a second opinion. Not to mention nurses that will also monitor and assist with a patient.
- Yes we fly the majority of our time in controlled airspace with ATCO’s to assist us. However they are not in the cockpit and the final responsibility is with the Captain. We are responsible for hundreds of people at a time.
- We are tested at aircraft simulator sessions bi or quad annually.
- We must renew our command instrument rating every 12 months.
- We are line checked every 12 months.
- We must qualify in EP's, DG's, CRM and must keep these current.
- Yes in the cruise we do sit there and manage (radio, navigation, aircraft systems, crew, passengers, aircraft cabin environment) the safe conduct of the flight. And yes on occasion someone may read a paper. I don’t know of an accountant who will crunch numbers for an entire eight hour shift with out sneaking on the internet or reading the paper or making a non business related phone call.
- We have done a long poorly paid apprenticeship to gain the experience to qualify for a jet job. PPL,CPL,IREX,ATPL,ME-CIR, numerous aircraft endorsements ratings and approvals.
- We must have a valid medical to fly, which lasts 12 months. As you get older the medicals get more rigorous.
- We have a large influence on the operating costs of our company with regard to, on time performance, fuel carried, fuel used, brake usage, training.
- ‘180k may be 4-5 time the national average’ remuneration that's what experience is worth. I don’t mind a medical specialist making A$350,000, he deserves it, I am paying for his experience.
- I also don’t begrudge a Caterpillar D12 bulldozer driver making A$110,000+. He is operating expensive equipment and can push dirt on a 35 degree bank angle and move ? tonnes of tailings per hour.
When people mention "yea but most crashes are pilot error", mention the incidents in which the pilots have saved the aircraft and occupants. These incidents happen every day.
We need to resist the temptation to talk down our profession/remuneration, I don't hear doctors, accountants, CEO's or magistrates doing it.
Most people know what doctors(insert profession) do and how they got there. We need to educate people on what we as pilots do and how we got there.
Best Regards
Last edited by ROKAPE; 28th Feb 2006 at 07:30.
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PERCEPTION IS REALITY
ROKAPE,
I agree 100% - Professional Aviators must stop talking down their operational role and very important job. It is half our battle.... The exact picture you have painted happens all the time...that is - the same old poorly educated question regarding the AUTOPILOT!...rapidly followed by a lazy and equally poor response...
The truth is most people have very little understanding of what we do....nor should they be expected to. However, if they genuinely ask the question; It is our responsibility, on behalf of all professional pilots to give a well thought out answer. If we, as a professional group continually talk down our area of expertise, then we face a tough time convincing many of the need for descent pay and conditions.
PERCEPTION IS REALITY
You have given great examples of what others can say in response to any question regarding the day to day role of an Airline Pilot....
I agree 100% - Professional Aviators must stop talking down their operational role and very important job. It is half our battle.... The exact picture you have painted happens all the time...that is - the same old poorly educated question regarding the AUTOPILOT!...rapidly followed by a lazy and equally poor response...
The truth is most people have very little understanding of what we do....nor should they be expected to. However, if they genuinely ask the question; It is our responsibility, on behalf of all professional pilots to give a well thought out answer. If we, as a professional group continually talk down our area of expertise, then we face a tough time convincing many of the need for descent pay and conditions.
PERCEPTION IS REALITY
You have given great examples of what others can say in response to any question regarding the day to day role of an Airline Pilot....
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Oicur...
If people are sacked when they "make a mistake" its usually for a biggy. The issue is that far more likely is the prospect of your position being placed under review for making a number of lesser mistakes....mistakes which you had damn well better unmistake.
The half of my point that you responded to is about the fact that the threat is there. The threat is always there. The threat will always be there irrepective of hrs, age or rank until you no longer are employed. Few other professionals have to face this possibility. For highly self assured people this is a lesser issue but for those of us who become increasingly aware of our own fallability as we get older (we could also throw in issues of increasing family and financial responsibilities) or who cant step readily into another airline every few years, its more of an issue believe me.
This leads us to the other half of my point. Medicals aren't about skills, currency, study or aptitude. Just when you least expect it something crops up, and sometimes these matters arent rectifiable with pills or laser surgery or at least rectifable enough. The bones just dont mend so well anymore either when you fall off your bike and break one or two. Having trouble recalling too many other professions that hang on such standards.
Nicely scribed Rok.
If people are sacked when they "make a mistake" its usually for a biggy. The issue is that far more likely is the prospect of your position being placed under review for making a number of lesser mistakes....mistakes which you had damn well better unmistake.
The half of my point that you responded to is about the fact that the threat is there. The threat is always there. The threat will always be there irrepective of hrs, age or rank until you no longer are employed. Few other professionals have to face this possibility. For highly self assured people this is a lesser issue but for those of us who become increasingly aware of our own fallability as we get older (we could also throw in issues of increasing family and financial responsibilities) or who cant step readily into another airline every few years, its more of an issue believe me.
This leads us to the other half of my point. Medicals aren't about skills, currency, study or aptitude. Just when you least expect it something crops up, and sometimes these matters arent rectifiable with pills or laser surgery or at least rectifable enough. The bones just dont mend so well anymore either when you fall off your bike and break one or two. Having trouble recalling too many other professions that hang on such standards.
Nicely scribed Rok.
Last edited by LookinDown; 28th Feb 2006 at 08:38.