How to get those first few hours?
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How to get those first few hours?
Hi,
i have recently started reading past threads about heading "up north" for that first job. However, I have noticed that people keep mentioning a minimum of 200/220 or 250 hours in order to have some chance of getting employed.
What I would like to know is how you get those 50 extra hours after completing your CPL to achieve >200 hours TT.
I did my CPL as the 150 hour syllabus, so the only way I can see how people can have approximately 200 hours and still look for that first job is either by doing:
1) the 200 hour syllabus
2) doing the instructor rating (approx 50 hours)
3) or acquiring the hours through some other part time job.
I have tried talking my friends into going flying, insisting that we would split the cost evenly or that I would even pay that bit extra, but the high cost seems to bit most of them off. I have managed to get 2 hours so far out of my friends with another hopefully 2 to come. So getting hours off my friends is not a realistic option for me.
As a result i have been looking for first jobs doing "meatbombing" (i assume this is parachute ops?). I would like to know what the chances are for a fresh CPL pilot getting employed in parachute ops.
Your ideas and inputs are appreciated
Thanks,
Spelunker
Good to be aboard PPrune.
i have recently started reading past threads about heading "up north" for that first job. However, I have noticed that people keep mentioning a minimum of 200/220 or 250 hours in order to have some chance of getting employed.
What I would like to know is how you get those 50 extra hours after completing your CPL to achieve >200 hours TT.
I did my CPL as the 150 hour syllabus, so the only way I can see how people can have approximately 200 hours and still look for that first job is either by doing:
1) the 200 hour syllabus
2) doing the instructor rating (approx 50 hours)
3) or acquiring the hours through some other part time job.
I have tried talking my friends into going flying, insisting that we would split the cost evenly or that I would even pay that bit extra, but the high cost seems to bit most of them off. I have managed to get 2 hours so far out of my friends with another hopefully 2 to come. So getting hours off my friends is not a realistic option for me.
As a result i have been looking for first jobs doing "meatbombing" (i assume this is parachute ops?). I would like to know what the chances are for a fresh CPL pilot getting employed in parachute ops.
Your ideas and inputs are appreciated
Thanks,
Spelunker
Good to be aboard PPrune.
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Spelunker,
You might get work with less than 250 hours or so up north, but you'll be last in line.
In my experince getting work up north I didnt notice any application of a rational policy in hiring people. Some real w*nkers got in early with minimum hours and a few really good blokes with 250+ were still working at the servo at the end of the season.
The number of hours you have will get you an interview but from that point on the CP really wants to know what sort of bloke you are and whether you are going to inspire confidence in the passengers and be able to handle the job in terms or everything other than the flying.
I might be totally wrong here, I'm sure someone is going to argue the point, but that was my impression of the process.
Skydiving is an excellent way to go.
Take your time to get up north, because if you get there with 250 hours and some money saved and a good idea of where you really want to end up then you'll save yourself a lot of rsache.
In WA there are a couple of Skydiving Ops that are always looking for pilots, I know of one who has been looking for one for some time.
Skydiving isn't very disciplined flying, and most likely you'll encounter overloaded planes and old equipment, but where else can you build those first 50 hours?
good luck, enjoy
Looks2Young
You might get work with less than 250 hours or so up north, but you'll be last in line.
In my experince getting work up north I didnt notice any application of a rational policy in hiring people. Some real w*nkers got in early with minimum hours and a few really good blokes with 250+ were still working at the servo at the end of the season.
The number of hours you have will get you an interview but from that point on the CP really wants to know what sort of bloke you are and whether you are going to inspire confidence in the passengers and be able to handle the job in terms or everything other than the flying.
I might be totally wrong here, I'm sure someone is going to argue the point, but that was my impression of the process.
Skydiving is an excellent way to go.
Take your time to get up north, because if you get there with 250 hours and some money saved and a good idea of where you really want to end up then you'll save yourself a lot of rsache.
In WA there are a couple of Skydiving Ops that are always looking for pilots, I know of one who has been looking for one for some time.
Skydiving isn't very disciplined flying, and most likely you'll encounter overloaded planes and old equipment, but where else can you build those first 50 hours?
good luck, enjoy
Looks2Young
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S - unfortunately, unless you have a parachutist 'd' license (200+ jumps), the minimum requirements to be a jump pilot in OZ are 200 hours, with 100 in command and 10 on the type you will be flying. (mins as per APF op regs). Most DZs that will offer a job to a newbie will be small weekend outfits and the hour building can be a little slow.
Other options to consider without spending a shtload more $ are glider towing (will need tailwheelie endorse) or cattle mustering (need low level approval and mustering endorse).
Then there's the scenic game. Broome, Kununurra and Kakadu are the big ones. Bear in mind this work is seasonal, coincides with the dry and recruiting starts around December (in Broome at least), going through till march / april. Most companies have the majority of their crew by March. Broome might be a good option as some of the operators there don't give jobs based on hours but on when you arrived in Broome and how long you'll show commitment by waiting round for a slot.
Darwin is also an option with the charter scene. Or you can instruct, one of the few areas where it's a little easier to score work when compared with competition in other facets of the industry. Either way, get used to spending $$ dude. It never stops.
Other options to consider without spending a shtload more $ are glider towing (will need tailwheelie endorse) or cattle mustering (need low level approval and mustering endorse).
Then there's the scenic game. Broome, Kununurra and Kakadu are the big ones. Bear in mind this work is seasonal, coincides with the dry and recruiting starts around December (in Broome at least), going through till march / april. Most companies have the majority of their crew by March. Broome might be a good option as some of the operators there don't give jobs based on hours but on when you arrived in Broome and how long you'll show commitment by waiting round for a slot.
Darwin is also an option with the charter scene. Or you can instruct, one of the few areas where it's a little easier to score work when compared with competition in other facets of the industry. Either way, get used to spending $$ dude. It never stops.
or cattle mustering (need low level approval and mustering endorse).
.No Sh1t, it's great fun to fly low and all but there is a REAL good reason why the regs say 500'min
Good luck
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Skydiving isn't very disciplined flying, and most likely you'll encounter overloaded planes and old equipment, but where else can you build those first 50 hours?
Wherever you start off your career, remember, this is how you will start off your reputation also! That, along with the friends and referees you will gain, will be worth far more than your first logbook of hours.
Good luck with the search!
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Probably worth getting your Grade 3 as you will get your 50 hours and be a bit more employable. One issue with G3 is the cost to obtain. You could probably buy 50 PIC for less than the course cost (even taking into account the 25 hours mutual flying).
Another possibility, depending on where you are, could be to do a tail dragger endo, build up a bit of PIC and try your luck with glider tug operators. Personally I've never done glider towing so I don't know what sort of hours they look for, but its another avenue to explore...
Good luck.
Another possibility, depending on where you are, could be to do a tail dragger endo, build up a bit of PIC and try your luck with glider tug operators. Personally I've never done glider towing so I don't know what sort of hours they look for, but its another avenue to explore...
Good luck.
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Thanks for all the replies guys, very helpful.
BoundaryLayer I already do have a taildragger endorsement, so I suppose I am that one small step closer.
Sexual Chocolate, I looked up the regs and CASA website for any info about min requirements to operate as a PJE pilot, and all I could find was what you aready quoted:
"(c)if the pilot in command is not the holder of a parachutist certificate “D” or higher — he
or she has not less than 200 hours total aeronautical experience, of which not less than
100 hours must be as pilot in command or is the holder of at least a commercial pilot
licence valid for that type of aircraft; and
(d) has not less than 10 hours aeronautical experience as pilot in command of the aircraft type from which the descent is made.
Which brings me to my question, seeing as I do have a CPL does that mean that I do already meet the requirements? Reverseflowkeroburna perphaps you could explain?
Furthermore the above quoted rules are from the APF (Australian Parachute Federation) regulations, so it doesn't necessarily apply to everybody, only to APF members, correct?
Thanks again for the help
Spelunker
BoundaryLayer I already do have a taildragger endorsement, so I suppose I am that one small step closer.
Sexual Chocolate, I looked up the regs and CASA website for any info about min requirements to operate as a PJE pilot, and all I could find was what you aready quoted:
"(c)if the pilot in command is not the holder of a parachutist certificate “D” or higher — he
or she has not less than 200 hours total aeronautical experience, of which not less than
100 hours must be as pilot in command or is the holder of at least a commercial pilot
licence valid for that type of aircraft; and
(d) has not less than 10 hours aeronautical experience as pilot in command of the aircraft type from which the descent is made.
Which brings me to my question, seeing as I do have a CPL does that mean that I do already meet the requirements? Reverseflowkeroburna perphaps you could explain?
Furthermore the above quoted rules are from the APF (Australian Parachute Federation) regulations, so it doesn't necessarily apply to everybody, only to APF members, correct?
Thanks again for the help
Spelunker
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S - sorry dude I stand corrected. You got it in one. So long as you got your 10 on type you're all good. And yep - only applies to DZs who are affiliated with APF. Bear in mind though that this covers allmost all of them - I only know of one guy in Victoria who runs his own operation independantly. (Ian Matthews?)
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Originally Posted by rmcdonal
I was under the impression there where some minimum glider hrs req to be a tug pilot? Any of the silent flyers have a comment for that?
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I believe SC has hit the nail, and yes I would've expected them all to be APF members too!
When I started at a DZ, a CPL and 10 on type was the go. Of course some things may have changed since, so you best check in the relevant regs. Whilst I had done 3 jumps years before, I believe that the APF membership ("Pink Card") was only temporary and I don't think it that had any bearing on my recruitment as a pilot at the time.
Another benefit of the glider-towing or PJE scenarios is that the "stick & rudder" experience you will get out of doing the high-sortie number days that some of these places do.
As a side note, if you think you might enjoy them, try a couple of jumps. It will give you a valuable, interesting and much more complete perspective on the whole skydiving operation. I did my 3 jumps as a totally independent initiative years before I coincidentally ended up flying for the same operator.
Again, good luck with the road you decide to take!
When I started at a DZ, a CPL and 10 on type was the go. Of course some things may have changed since, so you best check in the relevant regs. Whilst I had done 3 jumps years before, I believe that the APF membership ("Pink Card") was only temporary and I don't think it that had any bearing on my recruitment as a pilot at the time.
Another benefit of the glider-towing or PJE scenarios is that the "stick & rudder" experience you will get out of doing the high-sortie number days that some of these places do.
As a side note, if you think you might enjoy them, try a couple of jumps. It will give you a valuable, interesting and much more complete perspective on the whole skydiving operation. I did my 3 jumps as a totally independent initiative years before I coincidentally ended up flying for the same operator.
Again, good luck with the road you decide to take!
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APF Operational Regulations
3.7. PILOT QUALIFICATIONS
3.7.1.
3.7. PILOT QUALIFICATIONS
3.7.1.
An APF member must not make a parachute descent unless the descent is conducted
from an aircraft in which the pilot in command:
(a) is the holder of at least a private pilot licence, valid for that type of
aircraft, which is not endorsed with any condition limiting him or her to
flying within a specified distance from an aerodrome; and
(b) if the pilot in command is the holder of a parachutist certificate "D" or
higher - he or she has not less than 120 hours total aeronautical
experience, of which not less than 70 hours must be as pilot in
command; and
(c) if the pilot in command is not the holder of a parachutist certificate "D"
or higher- he or she has not less than 200 hours total aeronautical
experience, of which not less than 100 hours must be as pilot in
command or is the holder of at least a commercial pilot licence valid
for that type of aircraft; and
(d) has not less than 10 hours aeronautical experience as pilot in command
of the aircraft type from which the descent is made. For high-wing
Cessna aeroplanes, time accrued on the more complex types may be
credited for the less complex types in accordance with Appendix 3. of
the Jump Pilots Manual; and
(e) if the descent is made from a balloon - is the holder of at least a
commercial pilot (balloon) licence or a Private Pilot (Balloon)
Certificate issued by the Australian Ballooning Federation, and has not
less than 75 hours aeronautical experience as pilot in command of
balloons.
Its all fairly self-explanatory, there is NO requirement to hold a CPL, but if you do hold one you can get paid
I never heard of DZ not being affiliated with the APF, but hey im new to it all
. It is a great way to build your hours and work on those "stick and rudder" skills that Reverseflowkeroburna was talking about. Plenty of T/O and LNDs.
Just dont forget what straight and level looks like
from an aircraft in which the pilot in command:
(a) is the holder of at least a private pilot licence, valid for that type of
aircraft, which is not endorsed with any condition limiting him or her to
flying within a specified distance from an aerodrome; and
(b) if the pilot in command is the holder of a parachutist certificate "D" or
higher - he or she has not less than 120 hours total aeronautical
experience, of which not less than 70 hours must be as pilot in
command; and
(c) if the pilot in command is not the holder of a parachutist certificate "D"
or higher- he or she has not less than 200 hours total aeronautical
experience, of which not less than 100 hours must be as pilot in
command or is the holder of at least a commercial pilot licence valid
for that type of aircraft; and
(d) has not less than 10 hours aeronautical experience as pilot in command
of the aircraft type from which the descent is made. For high-wing
Cessna aeroplanes, time accrued on the more complex types may be
credited for the less complex types in accordance with Appendix 3. of
the Jump Pilots Manual; and
(e) if the descent is made from a balloon - is the holder of at least a
commercial pilot (balloon) licence or a Private Pilot (Balloon)
Certificate issued by the Australian Ballooning Federation, and has not
less than 75 hours aeronautical experience as pilot in command of
balloons.
Its all fairly self-explanatory, there is NO requirement to hold a CPL, but if you do hold one you can get paid
I never heard of DZ not being affiliated with the APF, but hey im new to it all
. It is a great way to build your hours and work on those "stick and rudder" skills that Reverseflowkeroburna was talking about. Plenty of T/O and LNDs.Just dont forget what straight and level looks like
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Other options to consider without spending a shtload more $ are glider towing (will need tailwheelie endorse) or cattle mustering (need low level approval and mustering endorse).
First up, No'one is going to employ you. Its the same old story. no hours or experiance, no job.
Second, the probability of ending up dead or mauled is pretty high.
Third, this is not an hour buiding industry, it is one that the customer wants to see the same pilot back, year after year. it takes a while for the customer to build confidence in the pilot and if you stuff just one job, or have a conflict with the customer, it will fall back on your boss and his company and he will not get that work ever again...........and through word of mouth, none of the close neighbours will be interested either.
Fourth. The bloke employing you will want to see you stay for a while. to justify him having to train you and risk his customers and aircraft, he will want some form of gaurantee your not going to nick off after getting three or four hundred hours.
Fifth. It is going to take you at least five hours that the regs require for the low level training and ten hours minimum for the mustering rating, provided you can find someone to do it. all at your cost. This would be money better spent doing an initial twin and another one or two type endorsments if this is the road you want to take in the future. you would be far better off using that money to hire a 210 or 206 and grab a few buddies and drift about on a holiday and score those hours.
Most (actually all that I know) mustering organisations will not be interested in you unless you have some stock experiance, or are interested in going to work on a station for a while to gain some.
Don't want to rain on your pararde, but Stock mustering is not a fast track into a charter job. some of the charter companies will not regard those hours as good hours either because due to past history of some of the people involved in the old days, you will get the cowboy image thrust apon you, no matter how professionally you operate.
Its a hard road for those first few hours, but we all had to do it.
I built lots of hours when I first started by hanging about the airfields and taking on any sort of ferry/positioning flight offered and picking up the odd charter/scenic flight and by doing aerobatic jolly flights.
get a aerobatic endo and you will learn the limits of your aircraft alot better and you will be surprised how many of your mates will want to go out and do some aero's.
Glider towing:
Set number of hours required before getting an initial endorsement (ie no double towing and no paddock retrieves) from an authorised person is about 40 from memory. In reality, most have this.
To go for those other 2 requirements, must have a minimum of 30 hrs towing (a lot of tows at 0.1 each!).
A tailwheel endorsement is not specifically needed for towing. However, nearly everyone tows with Pawnees, so in practice you will need one.
There is no _legal_ requirement for you to have any gliding experience. BUT most clubs will not let you tow unless you do. That's their choice.
If you want hours, go for the parachute ops. If you've got absolutely no other way, go towing (it will take a while if you can only get a couple of hours a weekend)
Certifs
Set number of hours required before getting an initial endorsement (ie no double towing and no paddock retrieves) from an authorised person is about 40 from memory. In reality, most have this.
To go for those other 2 requirements, must have a minimum of 30 hrs towing (a lot of tows at 0.1 each!).
A tailwheel endorsement is not specifically needed for towing. However, nearly everyone tows with Pawnees, so in practice you will need one.
There is no _legal_ requirement for you to have any gliding experience. BUT most clubs will not let you tow unless you do. That's their choice.
If you want hours, go for the parachute ops. If you've got absolutely no other way, go towing (it will take a while if you can only get a couple of hours a weekend)
Certifs
