Air Nelson
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Hmm sounds like I missed out on something! I take it this "airline" no longer exists?
And how could they call themselves anything-jet if they were flying bandits?
I actually thought you were referring to that fine Irish airline, who I thought were a bit better than that!
And how could they call themselves anything-jet if they were flying bandits?
I actually thought you were referring to that fine Irish airline, who I thought were a bit better than that!
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MOR yeah could be the subject of another thread...basically a company called Trans-Global..(who carried freight) then introduced 2 more bandits..and started to carry pax...then they got into to trouble for maintenance etc etc.....(Iused to work there
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Didn't they have some dodgy method of recording flight time where they took some standard taxi figure off the block time? They ended up with rediculously short sector times.
try a google search for webpages in NZ on CityJet
I like the NZ First page second from bottom...it should be put as a sticky on Pprune for all those that consider it.
Yeah flight time of something like 30 mins for the caravan to go from Auckland to Queenstown saw it all come unstuck
I like the NZ First page second from bottom...it should be put as a sticky on Pprune for all those that consider it.
Yeah flight time of something like 30 mins for the caravan to go from Auckland to Queenstown saw it all come unstuck
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Whats all this talk about Air Nelson not employing overseas pilots, or expats. Total crap, there are several pilots who have been employed recently who have been working abroad. Atleast one of them has been flying wide body jets!
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They obviously invested in the "50 hours recent New Zealand Instrument Flying" requirement then, or "knew somebody".
Many of us have been rejected without interview because we did not have the above.
In my case, I was told by your then Chief Pilot that he would never employ "any bastard who had jumped the queue by flying in Europe", and that he didn't like "foreign bastards taking Kiwi jobs" (a "foreign bastard" including kiwi expats it seems). He went on to explain that the proper preparation for a job at Air Nelson involved hanging around like a bad smell until someone noticed you, washing aircraft, sucking up to everybody in sight, and generally selling yourself short in every department.
Of course most Kiwis accept this as normal. Those of us who have flown elsewhere, understand that real airlines value experience (as diverse as possible) and ability. They don't care where you got it. They also understand the need to occasionally hire direct-entry training staff or captains, becuae sometimes you need an injection of experience to balance up a young and inexperienced pilot workforce.
Air Nelson are the most prominent exponents of parochial stupidity, but most NZ operators do it in some form or another.
BTW I'll bet money that the experienced wide-body jet guy was required to start as an F/O, right? Never happen anywhere else in the world.
Many of us have been rejected without interview because we did not have the above.
In my case, I was told by your then Chief Pilot that he would never employ "any bastard who had jumped the queue by flying in Europe", and that he didn't like "foreign bastards taking Kiwi jobs" (a "foreign bastard" including kiwi expats it seems). He went on to explain that the proper preparation for a job at Air Nelson involved hanging around like a bad smell until someone noticed you, washing aircraft, sucking up to everybody in sight, and generally selling yourself short in every department.
Of course most Kiwis accept this as normal. Those of us who have flown elsewhere, understand that real airlines value experience (as diverse as possible) and ability. They don't care where you got it. They also understand the need to occasionally hire direct-entry training staff or captains, becuae sometimes you need an injection of experience to balance up a young and inexperienced pilot workforce.
Air Nelson are the most prominent exponents of parochial stupidity, but most NZ operators do it in some form or another.
BTW I'll bet money that the experienced wide-body jet guy was required to start as an F/O, right? Never happen anywhere else in the world.
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MOR agree with you, sadly did not meet the requirement with Air Nelson due to lack of NZ hrs. Maybe if I had flown a seneca around at night not a 777 around the globe for BA I might be better suited. Having already flown the Dash 8-300Q with Brymon All I was interested in doing was living in Napier and accepting a quieter life with my family with no jetlag, still flying and doing heaps of pig hunting. Alas I know what I have to do when I go home on holiday.
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Yeah I can see there is a bad side to having a seniority list, but that depends on where your sitting, I for one would be really pissed off if an expat with heaps of jet time came back and jumpedahead of me, we have all done our time wether its overseas or in NZ, I could have gone overseas, but I chose to stay in NZ and fly turbo props.
I think that a seniority list is the fairest way, and although it has its down side, most pilots I know agree it is the best way.
And as far as lack of experienced pilots go at Air Nelson, I don't think thats happened yet. The majority of pilots at Air Nelson have been there at least 10 years, so there hasn't been a need to employ direct entry experienced ex wide bodied jet pilots. Although with the fleet replacement, as part of the deal, Bombardier have been sending over a few of there own pilots temporarily to help with line training.
I think that a seniority list is the fairest way, and although it has its down side, most pilots I know agree it is the best way.
And as far as lack of experienced pilots go at Air Nelson, I don't think thats happened yet. The majority of pilots at Air Nelson have been there at least 10 years, so there hasn't been a need to employ direct entry experienced ex wide bodied jet pilots. Although with the fleet replacement, as part of the deal, Bombardier have been sending over a few of there own pilots temporarily to help with line training.
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What the...
As an ex Air Nelson pilot who now flies Airbuses LHS in Asia I have been reading this thread with interest. Seems like nothing much has changed in the time I've been gone. Air Nelson had excellent standards, very good training and maintenance, nice route structure etc. IMHO its technical standards would rate with the international jet carriers I know from the inside (QF & SQ) and compared to other turbo prop operators I've flown with for they deserve respect for their excellent STD of operation in what can be a demanding environment.
However the comments on management sound familiar - I can remember a couple of wannabes with big chips in Chicken training. And some parochial mgt types who lacked basic mgt and people skills. I guess the SAFE AIR / Blenheim BBQ club guys will all be retired out of there soon but they certainly monopolised the place when the Saabs came, much to many long serving Air Nelson guys disdain (Can't make decisions unless you've flown an Argosy!). It was always a very political place and hence not always a happy camp, but STD's wise - very good.
We had a few expats who had returned home as F/Os while I was there - they were good, and can't remember any animosity towards them, but then many of us had worked hard for almost nothing and put up with many years of NZ GA cr*p to get into Air Nelson, so I can understand the feelings if seniority was ignored. The STD of F/O's after a year or two inside was very high and really little excuse for not giving out commands to their own. Yes Europe and the Mid East have direct entry commands, and I've benefited from that policy too - but its because they lack the F/O's to upgrade. Rarely the case in NZ. Air Nelson seniority was fine by me, you had to meet a good STD for an upgrade when you number came and it eliminated alot of the greasy BS I've witnessed on companies that use the so called "merit" system. If I come home I would accept the seniority system for an F/O's job, IMHO its called having respect for your workmates - and your time will come.
Like any place its the people that make it happen - if they feel threatened by you in an interview then its little Johnny with 1500 hours in Tomahawks who'll get the spot... One could venture if mgt lost their insecurities about not "making it" onto the big stuff and feel comfortable in themselves for the excellent operation they have fostered, they could also feel comfortable about welcoming a wider cross section of joiners and enjoy the breadth of experience they can bring.
Like others I would quite like to one day go home to a nice job in DHC8-300's in Nelson, Napier etc - but not likely unless things change alot there first!
However the comments on management sound familiar - I can remember a couple of wannabes with big chips in Chicken training. And some parochial mgt types who lacked basic mgt and people skills. I guess the SAFE AIR / Blenheim BBQ club guys will all be retired out of there soon but they certainly monopolised the place when the Saabs came, much to many long serving Air Nelson guys disdain (Can't make decisions unless you've flown an Argosy!). It was always a very political place and hence not always a happy camp, but STD's wise - very good.
We had a few expats who had returned home as F/Os while I was there - they were good, and can't remember any animosity towards them, but then many of us had worked hard for almost nothing and put up with many years of NZ GA cr*p to get into Air Nelson, so I can understand the feelings if seniority was ignored. The STD of F/O's after a year or two inside was very high and really little excuse for not giving out commands to their own. Yes Europe and the Mid East have direct entry commands, and I've benefited from that policy too - but its because they lack the F/O's to upgrade. Rarely the case in NZ. Air Nelson seniority was fine by me, you had to meet a good STD for an upgrade when you number came and it eliminated alot of the greasy BS I've witnessed on companies that use the so called "merit" system. If I come home I would accept the seniority system for an F/O's job, IMHO its called having respect for your workmates - and your time will come.
Like any place its the people that make it happen - if they feel threatened by you in an interview then its little Johnny with 1500 hours in Tomahawks who'll get the spot... One could venture if mgt lost their insecurities about not "making it" onto the big stuff and feel comfortable in themselves for the excellent operation they have fostered, they could also feel comfortable about welcoming a wider cross section of joiners and enjoy the breadth of experience they can bring.
Like others I would quite like to one day go home to a nice job in DHC8-300's in Nelson, Napier etc - but not likely unless things change alot there first!
Last edited by El Oso; 23rd Feb 2006 at 23:20.
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Been away on a trip so Ive missed the last few bits......
People that are at Air Nsn now, just out of interest what does one have to do? The career path that Im following would seem to preclude Nsn as a potential option should the bright lights of LGW and LHR ever get a bit much. The seniority based system makes sense (although when I see where Im on my present seniority list I often wonder
), however from the outside it still looks VERY much like its jobs for the boys. And what about this NZ IFR requirement? is it really just a filter...perhaps its like the HR gobbledegook that UK airlines seem to delight in making you do, or is it a justifiable way to keep the seniority list balanced?
just a thought
People that are at Air Nsn now, just out of interest what does one have to do? The career path that Im following would seem to preclude Nsn as a potential option should the bright lights of LGW and LHR ever get a bit much. The seniority based system makes sense (although when I see where Im on my present seniority list I often wonder
), however from the outside it still looks VERY much like its jobs for the boys. And what about this NZ IFR requirement? is it really just a filter...perhaps its like the HR gobbledegook that UK airlines seem to delight in making you do, or is it a justifiable way to keep the seniority list balanced?just a thought
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When I questioned the NZ IFR requirement, I was told that it was there because they "had problems with some foreign pilots not being able to cope with NZ airspace". I asked in what way NZ airspace is different to any other ICAO airspace. He didn't know. The answer, of course, is that it is a LOT simpler than most other ICAO aispace. I asked him in what way NZ procedures were more difficult than any other ICAO-based procedures. He didn't know. The answer, of course, is that NZ procedures are no more difficult (and often a lot simpler) than other ICAO procedures.
Eventually, I got him to admit that it was there only to prevent people by-passing the standard NZ progression throught aero clubs etc. In other words, jobs for the boys, as you suggest.
It may be that the requirement is no longer strictly adhered to, however any airline management that would allow such nonsense at all, has to deeply suspect.
And as for standards, if the stories about roasted Dash 8 engines are true, you have to wonder how high standards really are. Any airline that has trouble introducing such a simple type, surely has a training (and experience) problem.
Eventually, I got him to admit that it was there only to prevent people by-passing the standard NZ progression throught aero clubs etc. In other words, jobs for the boys, as you suggest.
It may be that the requirement is no longer strictly adhered to, however any airline management that would allow such nonsense at all, has to deeply suspect.
And as for standards, if the stories about roasted Dash 8 engines are true, you have to wonder how high standards really are. Any airline that has trouble introducing such a simple type, surely has a training (and experience) problem.
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If I wanted to go and fly overseas, lets say in Europe, I would have to completely resit my ATPL subjects and License (I think) and fork out 20 -30 thousand dollars for a type rating, plus all the problems with getting a work Visa. Coming back to NZ from overseas even if had to do 50 hours of local flying sounds easier to me. I don't think this is a requirement any more?
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Air Nelson are interviewing again shortly for an April or June SAAB ground course, they are hoping it will be the last SAAB course, so any more after this might be on the Q300.
The guys doing the hiring at the moment are top guys and they seem to be choosing a mix of low time pilots and more experienced pilots, (quite a few jumping ship from Eagle and Origin!) I'm no expert on hiring pilots, but I guess they looking for sensible people to fly there aircraft and who are going to stick around for a while.
MOR, Haughtney1 etc, if your really that keen to fly for Air Nelson, I don't think they care if you've been flying overseas or not, but don't approach them demanding a direct entry command, you'll have to accept that there is a seniority list. At the moment F/O's who are getting commands have still got around 4 - 5000 hrs, so they aren't laking that much experience yet! I know of Kiwi pilots in Europe who have commands on 737's with less hours than that.
Air Nelson is not a bad company, like you make it out to be.
The guys doing the hiring at the moment are top guys and they seem to be choosing a mix of low time pilots and more experienced pilots, (quite a few jumping ship from Eagle and Origin!) I'm no expert on hiring pilots, but I guess they looking for sensible people to fly there aircraft and who are going to stick around for a while.
MOR, Haughtney1 etc, if your really that keen to fly for Air Nelson, I don't think they care if you've been flying overseas or not, but don't approach them demanding a direct entry command, you'll have to accept that there is a seniority list. At the moment F/O's who are getting commands have still got around 4 - 5000 hrs, so they aren't laking that much experience yet! I know of Kiwi pilots in Europe who have commands on 737's with less hours than that.
Air Nelson is not a bad company, like you make it out to be.
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Charlie Horse,
If you'd actually read what Ive typed...and more to the point asked, Im not wanting a direct entry command, nor am saying Air Nsn is a bad company. What I asked about was the company hiring policy, the reason I've asked this is because I see Air Nsn as a potential employer in the future, not because its my only option..far from it infact..but because potentially should I ever decide to move back home to NZ I feel it would be nice to have an idea of the lay of the land.
Well I dont give two hoots whos doing what, Im asking as Im interested for my own personal reasons as I have previously outlined... if Air Nsn dont care where you come from..that would be a breath of fresh air in the NZ aviation scene..the 1000hrs or so I did in NZ didnt bear this out.
Its just my experience
If you'd actually read what Ive typed...and more to the point asked, Im not wanting a direct entry command, nor am saying Air Nsn is a bad company. What I asked about was the company hiring policy, the reason I've asked this is because I see Air Nsn as a potential employer in the future, not because its my only option..far from it infact..but because potentially should I ever decide to move back home to NZ I feel it would be nice to have an idea of the lay of the land.
MOR, Haughtney1 etc, if your really that keen to fly for Air Nelson, I don't think they care if you've been flying overseas or not, but don't approach them demanding a direct entry command, you'll have to accept that there is a seniority list. At the moment F/O's who are getting commands have still got around 4 - 5000 hrs, so they aren't laking that much experience yet! I know of Kiwi pilots in Europe who have commands on 737's with less hours than that.
Its just my experience
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Sorry guys I didn't mean to offend or misquote anyone, but I got the feeling a few of you might be trying to turn this into a "Air Nelson bashing thread". Naturally as I work there I was just trying to clarify a few things. This "small minded kiwi attitude problem" funnily enougth I have encounted and I know what you mean. But I don't think this exists at Air Nelson. Recently they have been employing pilots from GA, instructors and other airlines, and yes there are a few from overseas. Althougth we must keep in mind that there has been heaps of employment over the last few years, and once it slows, then I guess management become more picky as to who they choose.
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And that is precisely the problem.
Attitudes in Air Nelson are entrenched, and they come all the way from the top. The "anti-expat" attitude is pure R.I., I know this because he told me so, as did his chief pilot. He had the same attitude when he was running Mot-Air, the only people that ever got jobs there were people prepared to suck up to him big-time. Although he left Air Nelson some time ago, the attitude has remained.
As far as experience goes, it is quite true that Air Nelson will have some F/Os with thousands of hours. However, what you don't mention is that a large proportion of that time was probably spend instructing in singles, or other similar GA flying. But it isn't a matter of hours, it is a matter of quality, and guys with several thousand hours hard IFR are far better equipped for command.
The problem with Air Nelson is that faced with two choices for captain - a company guy with a few thousand hours, mostly in GA, and having flown nothing larger than a Saab; or an outside guy with several thousand hours, mostly command and mostly on sizeable jets, mostly flown in very demanding Euro airspace - they will always give the company guy the command. It makes no rational sense, from any conceivable point of view, but that is what will happen. Most overseas airlines realised aeons ago that experience is your best friend when it comes to accident prevention. However, Air Nelson (amongst others) would rather follow their protectionist policies than bow to common sense. They would rather put relatively inexperienced people in the left seat, when they have a potential goldmine of experience they could call upon.
Of course, most of the returning expats (including myself) have no wish to return to the right seat and be paid a pittance, so all that experience is lost to the type of operation that seems to need it most.
It is, sadly, the story of NZ aviation, from the CAA ("we are the only ones that know anything about aviation"), through the execrable ASL, down through the airlines and into GA. it is, literally, a closed shop.
Attitudes in Air Nelson are entrenched, and they come all the way from the top. The "anti-expat" attitude is pure R.I., I know this because he told me so, as did his chief pilot. He had the same attitude when he was running Mot-Air, the only people that ever got jobs there were people prepared to suck up to him big-time. Although he left Air Nelson some time ago, the attitude has remained.
As far as experience goes, it is quite true that Air Nelson will have some F/Os with thousands of hours. However, what you don't mention is that a large proportion of that time was probably spend instructing in singles, or other similar GA flying. But it isn't a matter of hours, it is a matter of quality, and guys with several thousand hours hard IFR are far better equipped for command.
The problem with Air Nelson is that faced with two choices for captain - a company guy with a few thousand hours, mostly in GA, and having flown nothing larger than a Saab; or an outside guy with several thousand hours, mostly command and mostly on sizeable jets, mostly flown in very demanding Euro airspace - they will always give the company guy the command. It makes no rational sense, from any conceivable point of view, but that is what will happen. Most overseas airlines realised aeons ago that experience is your best friend when it comes to accident prevention. However, Air Nelson (amongst others) would rather follow their protectionist policies than bow to common sense. They would rather put relatively inexperienced people in the left seat, when they have a potential goldmine of experience they could call upon.
Of course, most of the returning expats (including myself) have no wish to return to the right seat and be paid a pittance, so all that experience is lost to the type of operation that seems to need it most.
It is, sadly, the story of NZ aviation, from the CAA ("we are the only ones that know anything about aviation"), through the execrable ASL, down through the airlines and into GA. it is, literally, a closed shop.