Commercial & Atpl Theory Subjects
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Commercial& ATPL Theory Subjects
Di_Vosh if your following this thread closely 404Titan is missing the point, in fact I would say slow getting to the point. I referred to Trent700's & Mach82 by referring to these I know what a/c he flies,he didn't pick it up (Airbus).
Ok back to the subject, a degree gives one flexibility. ie. if you loose your licence you have a backup, its another means of income while your having to put up with the crap when first starting.
Its only a matter of time that what is required in other parts of the world will be required in Oz & Asia. Asia is moving quicker to that realisation than we are. Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal. Airlines want well rounded individuals. 404Titan & his ilk feel degrees are unnecessary because probably they don't have them. You will find that most degree knockers don't have degrees themselves. What is really sad is that young starry eyed individuals are given the impression its not difficult to be a pilot and after a few years of hard work the airlines will beckon & the money will roll in. That is not so. For every one that makes it a hundred wont. I would recommend a degree in Finance, Accounting or Economics, with Financial Planning exploding you will always get a job in that or a related field and finally if your at your wits end you can always become a teacher. You have options, in addition if you get into an airline & you have a degree you have a better chance of getting into management, remember the bean counters have a lot of say in how an airline is run.
Ok back to the subject, a degree gives one flexibility. ie. if you loose your licence you have a backup, its another means of income while your having to put up with the crap when first starting.
Its only a matter of time that what is required in other parts of the world will be required in Oz & Asia. Asia is moving quicker to that realisation than we are. Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal. Airlines want well rounded individuals. 404Titan & his ilk feel degrees are unnecessary because probably they don't have them. You will find that most degree knockers don't have degrees themselves. What is really sad is that young starry eyed individuals are given the impression its not difficult to be a pilot and after a few years of hard work the airlines will beckon & the money will roll in. That is not so. For every one that makes it a hundred wont. I would recommend a degree in Finance, Accounting or Economics, with Financial Planning exploding you will always get a job in that or a related field and finally if your at your wits end you can always become a teacher. You have options, in addition if you get into an airline & you have a degree you have a better chance of getting into management, remember the bean counters have a lot of say in how an airline is run.
Di_Vosh
I have and when I put in a recommendation to the review board, education was only part of the decision process. At the end of the day they look at a number of things and if the person with only year 12 education is more suitable than someone with a degree then so be it, they get the job.
C152R
I’m not missing the point at all. I saw what you wrote. Didn’t answer your question because it wasn’t relevant and A340 don’t have Trents. If you want to discuss the A330 and the Trent 700's I will but lets start another thread shall we.
You really don’t get it do you. Market forces are driving entry requirement down, not recruiters. Almost all the airlines in Europe, Asia, and Middle East don’t require and have no plans on requiring a degree. I would really like you to tell all of us which major airlines in these areas are now requiring degrees? We are finding it difficult enough now getting enough experienced pilots let alone making it even more difficult or if not impossible by putting up some artificial screening process requiring all pilots to have degrees. You really need to have a reality check because you are delusional my friend. By the way I do have a degree but it made f**k all difference when I was recruited, infact I don’t think I even told them about it because it was irrelevant.
Bulls**t. Re-read my previous post about who sets what in airlines. Again you are showing your told ignorance for how airlines are run.
I've not recruited any pilots, but I've recruited in several other industries. I've never had the situation you've described.
C152R
Di_Vosh if your following this thread closely 404Titan is missing the point, in fact I would say slow getting to the point. I referred to Trent700's & Mach82 by referring to these I know what a/c he flies,he didn't pick it up (Airbus).
You really don’t get it do you. Market forces are driving entry requirement down, not recruiters. Almost all the airlines in Europe, Asia, and Middle East don’t require and have no plans on requiring a degree. I would really like you to tell all of us which major airlines in these areas are now requiring degrees? We are finding it difficult enough now getting enough experienced pilots let alone making it even more difficult or if not impossible by putting up some artificial screening process requiring all pilots to have degrees. You really need to have a reality check because you are delusional my friend. By the way I do have a degree but it made f**k all difference when I was recruited, infact I don’t think I even told them about it because it was irrelevant.
Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal.
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Commercial& ATPL Theory Subjects
404Titan Aus. universities are producing about 180 pilot graduates a year & have been for the last 4 years. University of London are also running degree courses ending with a JAR frozen ATPL.I can go on & on, it takes little initiative to find the nos coming out of uni .You have been in the Fragrant Harbour too long.
You say 9 out of 10 applicants are non degree holders I believe you. Thats because it was guys like you doing the recruiting once the number of graduates increase, the non grads are limited. Its only a matter of time.
Its a question of supply & demand once the number of graduates increase which is happening ,the airline will require graduates with the same working conditions.
Di_Vosh we are talking airlines not PA31s. It appears you came to the industry late, the fact that you have a job is enough.
You say 9 out of 10 applicants are non degree holders I believe you. Thats because it was guys like you doing the recruiting once the number of graduates increase, the non grads are limited. Its only a matter of time.
Its a question of supply & demand once the number of graduates increase which is happening ,the airline will require graduates with the same working conditions.
Di_Vosh we are talking airlines not PA31s. It appears you came to the industry late, the fact that you have a job is enough.
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Commercial& ATPL Theory Subjects
Titan I didnt say the 340 was Trent powered. What I did refer to was Trents & Mach82. Didn't you get the dig about Trents & Manual Deicing in Freezing Fog. The Mach82 refers to the 5 APU powered 340. those 340s on the NOPAC routes are a pain in the butt. I would have expected a graduate to differentiate between the two.
Valdiviano, If your still keeping up with the crap that these children 
are spinning then good on you (unfortunately it just shows what kind of profession your son wants in on).
Back to the original Q. I would suggest doing the CPL by distance ED, but do ATPL's in a class room. The reasoning for this is that:
a) CPL exams are easy compared to some of the ATPL ones.
b) It costs about $140 per exam, if you fail you have to pay it again, so you want to get it taught right the first time.
c) At an ATPL theory school your son? is going to meet a lot of people from different fields of the aviation world and with different experience to share. By making friends he maybe able to score himself that elusive first job
or at least get some contacts in the industry. The best schools are the ones that other people hear you about, otherwise you wouldn't hear about them.
Good luck
are spinning then good on you (unfortunately it just shows what kind of profession your son wants in on).Back to the original Q. I would suggest doing the CPL by distance ED, but do ATPL's in a class room. The reasoning for this is that:
a) CPL exams are easy compared to some of the ATPL ones.
b) It costs about $140 per exam, if you fail you have to pay it again, so you want to get it taught right the first time.
c) At an ATPL theory school your son? is going to meet a lot of people from different fields of the aviation world and with different experience to share. By making friends he maybe able to score himself that elusive first job
or at least get some contacts in the industry. The best schools are the ones that other people hear you about, otherwise you wouldn't hear about them.Good luck
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Apologies to Valdiviano
Sorry about the thread creep (it's been known to happen here). 
This argument has been around for over 20 years now, and not just in aviation, but in many other industries.
I agree that having a secondary skill is a good idea when starting out in aviation. However, that doesn't mean that you've got to go to uni to get it. If I were to lose my licence, I'd be falling back on my IT skills, and not what I studied at Uni over 20 years ago (Genetics and Biochemistry - I've never studied I.T. at uni).
People like C152R (who according to his profile is a PPL and a student) seem to think that without a University degree you're going to be discriminated against in an employment application.
But, quotes like
that tell me that you've not worked in many professional workplaces. Just how many airlines have you worked for to get such an opinion? And how many interview boards have you been a part of?
I've interviewed 30 people and employed 5 in the past 12 months (not in aviation, but in I.T.) and NOT ONE employment offer was made due to level of education. And in no case were any of the applicants similar enough in maturity, character or temperament that their differing education made any difference.
DIVOSH!
P.S.
Thank you for reading my profile and your (fairly condescending) quote re: my job. But I don't intend to fly PA31's forever 
This argument has been around for over 20 years now, and not just in aviation, but in many other industries.
I agree that having a secondary skill is a good idea when starting out in aviation. However, that doesn't mean that you've got to go to uni to get it. If I were to lose my licence, I'd be falling back on my IT skills, and not what I studied at Uni over 20 years ago (Genetics and Biochemistry - I've never studied I.T. at uni).
People like C152R (who according to his profile is a PPL and a student) seem to think that without a University degree you're going to be discriminated against in an employment application.
But, quotes like
Once the graduates move in they will employ fellow graduates that would be nomal.
I've interviewed 30 people and employed 5 in the past 12 months (not in aviation, but in I.T.) and NOT ONE employment offer was made due to level of education. And in no case were any of the applicants similar enough in maturity, character or temperament that their differing education made any difference.
DIVOSH!
P.S.
Di_Vosh we are talking airlines not PA31s. It appears you came to the industry late, the fact that you have a job is enough.
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solocmv
I contacted N.S.W. Tafe. spoke to the head teacher, he said the CPL course / evening. would not be offered this year, and perhaps more alarmingly the full-time was very dependant on enrollements. Last year he had barely enough students for the course to be continued. A rather sad indictment on the industry. Also makes it hard if you have a full-time job.
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solocmv did you contact the NSW TAFE based in the city? if it does stop the Advanced Diploma it is a sad reflection of the industry. Unfortunately we are following the US system with theory content so one doesen't need to do a 18 month course when you can pass the CPL exams in 6 weeks.
All the exam questions are out there. We might as well be given a list of all the questions offically by CASA as they do in the US. Perhaps then we can learn the questions and answers and make it a 4 week course.
The quicker they adopt the JAR course the better for all of us.
All the exam questions are out there. We might as well be given a list of all the questions offically by CASA as they do in the US. Perhaps then we can learn the questions and answers and make it a 4 week course.
The quicker they adopt the JAR course the better for all of us.
solocmv
Don’t get too concerned about TAFE. If they don’t offer the courses this year just do one of the home study courses that have been mentioned on this thread. I used NSW TAFE back in the mid eighties only because the exams at the time were written (i.e. not multi choice) and none of the self teach courses were really any good.
rmcdonal
I apologies for going off topic as well but it gets my back up when some want to preach garbage to those that don’t really know.
C152R
Yeah I know that. So what? All this means is in years to come seven or eight out of ten applicants won’t have degrees. Even if you were producing 50% of all pilots that sent resumes to us (we have about 20000 on file at any one time) we still wouldn’t rule out those that didn’t have degrees. We would be shooting ourselves in the foot doing that. Current airline management will continue to cast the net far and wide for new pilots in order to keep pressure on wages and conditions because this is what the bean counters who run the airlines are demanding.
Yeah sure we do the recruiting but as I have said we don’t set the minimum requirements for new pilots. Decisions like this are made much higher up the totem pole, all by people who hold various university degrees I might add. Pilots at management level sometimes have some sought of degree granted but very very few get above flight ops level and therefore don’t get to make these decisions.
I agree with that.
No they won’t. Where have you been? The bean counters that run most airlines won’t be happy until the wages and conditions of pilots are a pittance. Why do you think the conditions would be the same as today for pilots in the future? Recent history tells us otherwise I’m afraid. Isn’t this one of the reasons you gave aviation away, the wage you were expecting wasn't forthcoming. Or are you doing your ATPL subjects?
Yes I did but freezing fog on the ground is hardly ever encountered and even if it was, it is only a problem if the taxi time in plus out is greater than 45 minutes on the Trent powered A330 and 60 minutes on the A340-600. Most combined taxi times wouldn’t be more than 30 minutes.
So you fly C152’s across the North Pacific now do you? The A343, A346 and A330 all cruise at about .82 Mach depending on the situation for a reason. They are most efficient at this speed. If a B744 or a high flying C152 is being held up because of us I’m sorry, not much we can do about it except change levels when we can. If airlines were buying aircraft based on speed then Boeing would have launched the Sonic Cruiser but they didn’t. They want aircraft that are efficient like the A330 and B777. Speed isn’t the name of the game I’m afraid, efficiency is.
PS: C152R, if you want to discuss this anymore I suggest we start a new thread. You and I have hijacked this one enough. Back to the original question. Sorry people.
Don’t get too concerned about TAFE. If they don’t offer the courses this year just do one of the home study courses that have been mentioned on this thread. I used NSW TAFE back in the mid eighties only because the exams at the time were written (i.e. not multi choice) and none of the self teach courses were really any good.
rmcdonal
I apologies for going off topic as well but it gets my back up when some want to preach garbage to those that don’t really know.
C152R
universities are producing about 180 pilot graduates a year & have been for the last 4 years. University of London are also running degree courses ending with a JAR frozen ATPL.I can go on & on, it takes little initiative to find the nos coming out of uni .
You say 9 out of 10 applicants are non degree holders I believe you. Thats because it was guys like you doing the recruiting once the number of graduates increase, the non grads are limited. Its only a matter of time.
Its a question of supply & demand
once the number of graduates increase which is happening ,the airline will require graduates with the same working conditions.
Didn't you get the dig about Trents & Manual Deicing in Freezing Fog.
The Mach82 refers to the 5 APU powered 340. those 340s on the NOPAC routes are a pain in the butt.
PS: C152R, if you want to discuss this anymore I suggest we start a new thread. You and I have hijacked this one enough. Back to the original question. Sorry people.
Last edited by 404 Titan; 2nd Feb 2006 at 15:45.
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hmm... hope i didn't spark something with the TAFE question, but interesting debate chaps.
i see that there are pros and cons to having and not having a university degree. i got me a bachelors of science degree in electrical engineering in the US about 2 years ago, been working in the industry since then, and turning 23 soon. think i'll have to get me a masters degree soon at this rate... any ups for people with an engineering degree and a masters in aviation management?
though most times i wish i started my aviation career back after high school....good luck to y'all.
cheers.
i see that there are pros and cons to having and not having a university degree. i got me a bachelors of science degree in electrical engineering in the US about 2 years ago, been working in the industry since then, and turning 23 soon. think i'll have to get me a masters degree soon at this rate... any ups for people with an engineering degree and a masters in aviation management?
though most times i wish i started my aviation career back after high school....good luck to y'all.
cheers.
