Private flying and CAO 48
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Private flying and CAO 48
Gday
I am sitting studying CPL Air Legislation, and have a question for you CPL and ATPL holders.
The way I read CAO 48 and 48.1, it looks like once you hold a licence higher than a Private Licence, you cant do any flying in a light aircraft on your days off, or before or after a rostered duty. And any private flying has to be considered in flight and duty time limitations.
Am I reading it correctly, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
I am sitting studying CPL Air Legislation, and have a question for you CPL and ATPL holders.
The way I read CAO 48 and 48.1, it looks like once you hold a licence higher than a Private Licence, you cant do any flying in a light aircraft on your days off, or before or after a rostered duty. And any private flying has to be considered in flight and duty time limitations.
Am I reading it correctly, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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G'day Nicko,
CAO 48 applies only to commercial operations. There are no flight and duty limitations on private operations.
All the best with your studies.
Cheers,
Inbound
CAO 48 applies only to commercial operations. There are no flight and duty limitations on private operations.
All the best with your studies.
Cheers,
Inbound
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There have been many interpretations on this one over the past 20+ years. At the end of the day if your chosen recreation is flying then you should be able to do it.. no diferent from driving a racing car or similar on your RDO.
Where it got a bit sticky was that some airline types flew their light a/c to work etc... not really the intent and the CAA/CASA interpretation was that doing so was to be counted as part of your duty time. Fair enought I say.
Over the years there were many discussions about the limits outlined in the CARs vs those in 48 and how it might apply to PVT ops. 48 makes no mention of PVT ops as I recall.
I am not across the very latest of the regs etc., especially with some operators using an exemption at work.
Many got around it (for the sake of their employer requiring max hours) to obtain a concession for some limited PVT flying over the limits in 48. This was granted to many pilots that I know - I still have mine.
Read the Regs as well as 48. Depending on how you read it, but the interpretation was (repeat was) that duty time for private ops was counted in commercial ops (at the start, but not always the end of shift).
Your employer usually has to tick the box as well, so at the end of the day the concession was the way to go. Thats a practical answer, but maybe not the one you want or need!! No doubt other players will enter with their 2c worth..
Where it got a bit sticky was that some airline types flew their light a/c to work etc... not really the intent and the CAA/CASA interpretation was that doing so was to be counted as part of your duty time. Fair enought I say.
Over the years there were many discussions about the limits outlined in the CARs vs those in 48 and how it might apply to PVT ops. 48 makes no mention of PVT ops as I recall.
I am not across the very latest of the regs etc., especially with some operators using an exemption at work.
Many got around it (for the sake of their employer requiring max hours) to obtain a concession for some limited PVT flying over the limits in 48. This was granted to many pilots that I know - I still have mine.
Read the Regs as well as 48. Depending on how you read it, but the interpretation was (repeat was) that duty time for private ops was counted in commercial ops (at the start, but not always the end of shift).
Your employer usually has to tick the box as well, so at the end of the day the concession was the way to go. Thats a practical answer, but maybe not the one you want or need!! No doubt other players will enter with their 2c worth..
CAO 48.0 Para 1.3 states:
The holder of a pilot licence other than a private pilot licence who engages in aerial work, charter, or regular public transport operations, shall be subject to the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.
So if you hold CPL/ATPL and conduct private operations then you must count this time as flight and duty.
The holder of a pilot licence other than a private pilot licence who engages in aerial work, charter, or regular public transport operations, shall be subject to the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.
So if you hold CPL/ATPL and conduct private operations then you must count this time as flight and duty.
CAO 48.0 Paragraph 1.3
The holder of a pilot licenceother than a private pilot licencewho engagesin aerial work, charter or RPT operations, shall be subject to the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitaions made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty performedin the course of private operations.
So if you work full time as a pilot then your company "owns" your 900 or 1000 hours. Where it gets interesting is when a pilot is employed under an AWA that specifies say 900 hours per annum but a company exemption allows 1000 hours per annum. Does that then allow 100 hours of private flying? I believe so.
EDITED TO SAY TURBANTIME BEAT ME! Also remember that it is not holding the licence that is the issue it is being engagedin said operations. What about paragraph 1.4?
Notwithstanding anything contained in these orders..... a flight crew member shall not fly.....is suffering from or is likely to be suffering from fatigue or illness which mayaffect judgement or performance...
Last edited by Icarus2001; 18th Jan 2006 at 09:15.
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CAO 48.0
This is very correct, but if you read on to the definitions...
If I choose to fly on a RDO or weekend privately, this is NOT duties associated with my employment. Therefore while the flight time is included in F&D records there is NO DUTY TIME on days off in private ops.
However IF you conducted a "private flight" on the same day as a duty shift either prior to, or after work, or particularly in the middle of a duty such as on your lunch break, you must count it as duty. Much more difficult to seperate the intent in these cases.
CAO 48.1
This means you cannot WORK 7 days in a row. BUT you can fly PRIVATELY as long as it has nothing to do with work.
The company you work for DOES NOT OWN YOUR HOURS!
You can fly privately as you like, or even work for other companies. Australia is a free country last time I checked. (shhh! don't tell DOTARS!)
HOWEVER! EACH company you work for and the PILOT (you), share a joint responsibility to adhere to F&D times under CAO 48.0 & 48.1. Therefore most companies do not like you flying privately or working for another company as it makes it difficult for them to keep track of your flight and duty IN TOTAL!. It makes it difficult for CASA to ensure you and the company(s) concerned are complying if your records are different!
So advise your employer(s) of your private (and other work) flying and as long as you are in no danger of exceeding flight time limits or of fatigue considerations (as already mentioned) you should be ok.
Cheers!
Z.
1.3 The holder of a pilot licence other than a private pilot licence who engages in aerial work, charter, or regular public transport operations, shall be subject to the flight and duty time limitations specified by CASA in section 48.1 of this Part. Calculations of flight and duty time limitations made under the provisions of section 48.1 shall take into account any flight and duty time performed in the course of private operations.
tour of duty: means the period between the time a flight crew member commences any duties associated with his or her employment prior to making a flight or series of flights until he or she is finally relieved of all such duties after the termination of such flight or series of flights and includes reserve time at the airport.
If I choose to fly on a RDO or weekend privately, this is NOT duties associated with my employment. Therefore while the flight time is included in F&D records there is NO DUTY TIME on days off in private ops.
However IF you conducted a "private flight" on the same day as a duty shift either prior to, or after work, or particularly in the middle of a duty such as on your lunch break, you must count it as duty. Much more difficult to seperate the intent in these cases.
CAO 48.1
1.12 A pilot shall not commence a flight and an operator shall not roster the pilot for a flight unless during the 7 days period terminating co-incident with the termination of the flight he or she has been relieved from all duty associated with his or her employment for at least 1 continuous period embracing the hours between 10 pm and 6 am on 2 consecutive nights.
So if you work full time as a pilot then your company "owns" your 900 or 1000 hours.
You can fly privately as you like, or even work for other companies. Australia is a free country last time I checked. (shhh! don't tell DOTARS!)
HOWEVER! EACH company you work for and the PILOT (you), share a joint responsibility to adhere to F&D times under CAO 48.0 & 48.1. Therefore most companies do not like you flying privately or working for another company as it makes it difficult for them to keep track of your flight and duty IN TOTAL!. It makes it difficult for CASA to ensure you and the company(s) concerned are complying if your records are different!
So advise your employer(s) of your private (and other work) flying and as long as you are in no danger of exceeding flight time limits or of fatigue considerations (as already mentioned) you should be ok.
Cheers!
Z.
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Zhaadum past being an expert on this but I'm with triadic.
Where do you draw the line and why do WE have the rule if it isn't meant to be applied across the board.
There have been many may abuses.
Witness an Australian airline pilot running an aircraft ferry business, using his ID 90, stepping straight out of a Cessna at the end of a Trans Pacific ferry into the cockpit of his waiting aircraft to operate a days flying.
Extreme example maybe but neither can you be a little bit pregnant.
Whether it is the interpretation
of the rules or not, I as a passenger would hope that the airline on which I'm flying OWNs the pilots hours. They can then between them work out how and on what conditions they are consumed.
IMHO It's got bugger all to do with Aussie rights, if you are going to sell your skills commercially, which because we are NOT machines, by any definition are a fragile commodity, then I am as a passenger, entitled to the full benefit of them, I am after all paying your wages.
Where do you draw the line and why do WE have the rule if it isn't meant to be applied across the board.
There have been many may abuses.
Witness an Australian airline pilot running an aircraft ferry business, using his ID 90, stepping straight out of a Cessna at the end of a Trans Pacific ferry into the cockpit of his waiting aircraft to operate a days flying.
Extreme example maybe but neither can you be a little bit pregnant.
Whether it is the interpretation
of the rules or not, I as a passenger would hope that the airline on which I'm flying OWNs the pilots hours. They can then between them work out how and on what conditions they are consumed.IMHO It's got bugger all to do with Aussie rights, if you are going to sell your skills commercially, which because we are NOT machines, by any definition are a fragile commodity, then I am as a passenger, entitled to the full benefit of them, I am after all paying your wages.
Whats the policies of airlines about pvt flying on days off. QF, DJ, Rex etc. Is there a limit of a few hrs a month. I know some guys like to do a bit of aeros or some low and slow stuff in a J3 Cub etc.
Whats the difference anyway, many guys and gals have 2nd job or run business, or even mothers who have 24/7 jobs raising kids.
Whats the difference anyway, many guys and gals have 2nd job or run business, or even mothers who have 24/7 jobs raising kids.
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I actually encountered this situation in my last job. I was keen to do some private flying on the weekends and sometimes after work. CASA was consulted and their answer was no problems at all. The explanation I was given from CASA was that the 'private' operations reference was to stop employers asking their pilots to exceed flight and duty limitations whilst operating under 'private' operations. e.g. Pilot does max Tour of Duty-aircraft has to return back to base empty. Employer says to pilot-"Its OK-its a private positioning flight".
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On the same topic but a slightly different angle...do you have to comply with 48.1 if you work in a 'private operation'? ie..you fly company personnel around in the company plane. 
do you have to comply with 48.1 if you work in a 'private operation'? ie..you fly company personnel around in the company plane.
These Orders shall apply to aerial work, charter and regular public transport service operations unless otherwise stated.
Therefore the operation you mentioned along with parachuting ops etc don't have to comply with CAO 48
BUT, if the CPL/ATPL holder does engage in AWK/CHRTR/RPT then he/she must take that flight and duty time into account for the AWK/CHRTR/RPT operation only.
Eg) Let's say the pilot has done 80 hours flight time as private ops and then wants to do another 30 hours Charter within the 30 day period. This will not be allowed as he will break the 100hrs while engaged in AWK/CHRTR/RPT ops.
However, if the pilot conducts 30 hours Charter and then wants to conduct a further 80 hours as private ops, then he can do so.
Clear as mud?
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Thanks for all the replies!!
So, now a practical one for you..........say you were to be rostered CNS-MEL, off duty at MEL at 0500L on Monday, and not rostered to go flying again till late in the next afternoon (Tuesday)
...........assuming you were not fatigued, could you do a private flight on the Monday afternoon, after a rest period of 10 hours?
So, now a practical one for you..........say you were to be rostered CNS-MEL, off duty at MEL at 0500L on Monday, and not rostered to go flying again till late in the next afternoon (Tuesday)
...........assuming you were not fatigued, could you do a private flight on the Monday afternoon, after a rest period of 10 hours?
Nicko,
Yes, the pilot could do a private flight, but if he wants to engage in another AWK/CHRTR/RPT operation then he will have to take into account the private flight conducted for the flight and duty calculation.
In your scenario, theoretically, the pilot could do a private flight straight after his sign off, but in order to conduct another commercial flight he/she may have to take the next 24 hours off to comply with CAO 48 (depending on how long the PVT flight was).
Yes, the pilot could do a private flight, but if he wants to engage in another AWK/CHRTR/RPT operation then he will have to take into account the private flight conducted for the flight and duty calculation.
In your scenario, theoretically, the pilot could do a private flight straight after his sign off, but in order to conduct another commercial flight he/she may have to take the next 24 hours off to comply with CAO 48 (depending on how long the PVT flight was).
