Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
Dont think this is the kind of thing that should come down to law.
In NZ we are taught not to make the first turn until after 500agl.... but it is not a law.
I think the grey area between law and practice needs to be as wide as possible.... and not just in aviation.
Standard procedure should not be on the same boundary as the law..... you need room to move.... Same in all aspects of life.
For some reason the law keeps re-adjusting itself to the norm, and the norm keeps having to be moved away from it... Once again, not just aviation Im talking about,
One day we wont fly anymore..... just stay at home in padded cells because its so much safer.
In NZ we are taught not to make the first turn until after 500agl.... but it is not a law.
I think the grey area between law and practice needs to be as wide as possible.... and not just in aviation.
Standard procedure should not be on the same boundary as the law..... you need room to move.... Same in all aspects of life.
For some reason the law keeps re-adjusting itself to the norm, and the norm keeps having to be moved away from it... Once again, not just aviation Im talking about,
One day we wont fly anymore..... just stay at home in padded cells because its so much safer.
Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
The trouble is that if it isn't law, three things will happen.
1) You will never know what the guy in front of you in the circuit is going to do.
2) There will be more accidents caused by people emulating James Bond on takeoff.
3) There will be more accidents caused by unstabilised approaches.
As the saying goes, "rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" or whatever. As a student and as a low time pilot, I appreciate the existence of the rules because it helps reduce uncertainties - both in terms of expectations of what others are going to do, and what I myself am going to try and do, in other words, mental discipline.
For an idiot like me, starting a climbing turn at say 250 feet, while cycling gear up, setting climb MP, RPM, fuel pump off and engine instruments scan is asking for trouble. The 500 foot stipulation gives me TIME to get things done in an orderly manner - and then start the turn.
Same on final. I like the time to sort things out and make a mental decision about the stability of my approach. My decision to land is at 300 feet with a PUF check, carb heat off (if fitted), or go around.
I've done a few glide approaches where I've still been turning final at 100 feet or less, but that is under instruction.
1) You will never know what the guy in front of you in the circuit is going to do.
2) There will be more accidents caused by people emulating James Bond on takeoff.
3) There will be more accidents caused by unstabilised approaches.
As the saying goes, "rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" or whatever. As a student and as a low time pilot, I appreciate the existence of the rules because it helps reduce uncertainties - both in terms of expectations of what others are going to do, and what I myself am going to try and do, in other words, mental discipline.
For an idiot like me, starting a climbing turn at say 250 feet, while cycling gear up, setting climb MP, RPM, fuel pump off and engine instruments scan is asking for trouble. The 500 foot stipulation gives me TIME to get things done in an orderly manner - and then start the turn.
Same on final. I like the time to sort things out and make a mental decision about the stability of my approach. My decision to land is at 300 feet with a PUF check, carb heat off (if fitted), or go around.
I've done a few glide approaches where I've still been turning final at 100 feet or less, but that is under instruction.
Turning early after takeoff.
Sunfish,
The turn at 500 should be procedural, not mandated by law, except possibly in GAAPs/CTR. Yes it might lead to illusions in the inexperienced, but why do we need rules against it? Black hole approaches and Somatogravic Illusions (night) also catch out the inexperienced, but there are no laws against a new night VFR pilot flying out the back of Bourke.
There are circumstances where it is safer to turn prior to 500', but the law won't allow that. That I cannot get airborne in a single from an ALA in upper kumbutka west, and commence a gentle climbing turn to increase my chances of making it back if all goes quiet is ludicrous and a degredation of safety.
It should be up to the pilot to decide when it is safe to turn. You state that you are still getting the aircraft sorted at that height and you wouldn't turn prior. That is the normal thought process of a trained pilot. Such decision making should be part of the pilot's training.
One of the issues in Australian aviation is that there is a want to remove any form of decision making from the pilot; to have everything SOP'd and done to exacting spelt out procedures. That is fine for Airlines and some GA, but once you are out in the real bush, there are many other factors to consider and where it would be nice to be able to use our judgement without fear of transgressing some regulation. There are so many variables in remote area flying that are unquantifiable, and for that reason there should be fewer laws.
The turn at 500 should be procedural, not mandated by law, except possibly in GAAPs/CTR. Yes it might lead to illusions in the inexperienced, but why do we need rules against it? Black hole approaches and Somatogravic Illusions (night) also catch out the inexperienced, but there are no laws against a new night VFR pilot flying out the back of Bourke.
There are circumstances where it is safer to turn prior to 500', but the law won't allow that. That I cannot get airborne in a single from an ALA in upper kumbutka west, and commence a gentle climbing turn to increase my chances of making it back if all goes quiet is ludicrous and a degredation of safety.
It should be up to the pilot to decide when it is safe to turn. You state that you are still getting the aircraft sorted at that height and you wouldn't turn prior. That is the normal thought process of a trained pilot. Such decision making should be part of the pilot's training.
One of the issues in Australian aviation is that there is a want to remove any form of decision making from the pilot; to have everything SOP'd and done to exacting spelt out procedures. That is fine for Airlines and some GA, but once you are out in the real bush, there are many other factors to consider and where it would be nice to be able to use our judgement without fear of transgressing some regulation. There are so many variables in remote area flying that are unquantifiable, and for that reason there should be fewer laws.
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Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
Just for interest's sake, the Concorde made its departure turn immediately airborne... makes for a pretty impressive takeoff! (in addition to the reheat and speed) 
Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
compressor stall is absolutely right. Sunfish:
I took a Cessna 150 out yesterday - takes over a minute to get to 500 ft on a warm day - plenty of time to read the POH to see what I need to do after take-off. Last time I launched off in a Pitts S-1-11B it took about ten seconds to get to 500 ft and I was ready to rock and roll. I'm not James Bond, just doing a steady climb at speed for best rate of climb.
500 foot stipulation gives me TIME to get things done
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Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
I learnt that the reason was similar to what djpil earlier said.
Typically, on the climb out, and the late base, airspeeds are low. When you make a banked turn, stall speed increases.
The 500' is there to give you time to recover if you were to get into a stall or an incipient spin.
I also understand that at GA strips, or at an aerodrome without PAPI/VASIS, the idea is to get between a 4-5 degree approach, not 3 degree.
Then the other trivial reasons follow on from that, stucture, procedure, law etc.
Typically, on the climb out, and the late base, airspeeds are low. When you make a banked turn, stall speed increases.
The 500' is there to give you time to recover if you were to get into a stall or an incipient spin.
I also understand that at GA strips, or at an aerodrome without PAPI/VASIS, the idea is to get between a 4-5 degree approach, not 3 degree.
Then the other trivial reasons follow on from that, stucture, procedure, law etc.
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Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
Compressor Stall has it in one.
There is no way that we can possibly create a rule for every senario. Thats just crazy. Being an instructor myself I am sick and tired of students asking me for the answer to every senario. "what if this happens, what if that happens"
I can't tell them the answer all the time, there has to be a point where they start to apply what they've learnt and think outside the box as opposed to the robot attitude "The regs say this therefore they are correct in all situations" Wrong.
Now I've vented my spleen, wheres my beer!
Cheers
370
There is no way that we can possibly create a rule for every senario. Thats just crazy. Being an instructor myself I am sick and tired of students asking me for the answer to every senario. "what if this happens, what if that happens"
I can't tell them the answer all the time, there has to be a point where they start to apply what they've learnt and think outside the box as opposed to the robot attitude "The regs say this therefore they are correct in all situations" Wrong.
Now I've vented my spleen, wheres my beer!
Cheers
370
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Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
Sunsnapper,
!
Think Compressor and Angels have you there. Too much regulation is crap! Pilots are trained to and have a responsibility to THINK and apply SOUND JUDGEMENT. There are many airports/situations/conditions where you WILL endanger yourself and the aircraft by complying with a min. 500ft turn after take-off. As Glekichi said it is not a law in NZ and we don't seem to have had your doomsday predictions dogging aviation over here!
Was this one old Dick's ideas? He made a nice impact with the turf at Harihari the other day-there were even reports of a small earthquake along most of the West Coast!
!
The trouble is that if it isn't law, three things will happen.
1) You will never know what the guy in front of you in the circuit is going to do.
2) There will be more accidents caused by people emulating James Bond on takeoff.
1) You will never know what the guy in front of you in the circuit is going to do.
2) There will be more accidents caused by people emulating James Bond on takeoff.
Was this one old Dick's ideas? He made a nice impact with the turf at Harihari the other day-there were even reports of a small earthquake along most of the West Coast!
Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
Originally Posted by LoneyPie
I learnt that the reason was similar to what djpil earlier said.........
The 500' is there to give you time to recover if you were to get into ...an incipient spin.
The 500' is there to give you time to recover if you were to get into ...an incipient spin.
I recall that the PPL/GFPT test form used to have a climbing, turning stall on it but removed now! I can remember doing it in my RPPL test many years ago. Some-one told me that it was not within flight manual limitations of the trainers - can't believe that. Be good for everyone to experience a stall from a skidding turn.
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Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching a student to make those turns at 500 feet. It gives him/her something to focus on, at the very early stage when they need some form of guidance. After the trainee becomes a pilot and is, perhaps, placed in a situation similar to the one that stallie has been describing for the last few years ( 
), the pilot should have enough training and education to be able to arrive at an appropriate command decision.
After all, isn't it all about survival out there? What price "command judgement" and "command decisions" these days?
I'll complicate the issue even further now by saying that a newly minted CIR pilot can use a SID that requires a turn off RWY HDG at 400 feet AGL. How is this different to a VFR pilot, with similar flight hours turning at 500 feet?
), the pilot should have enough training and education to be able to arrive at an appropriate command decision.After all, isn't it all about survival out there? What price "command judgement" and "command decisions" these days?
I'll complicate the issue even further now by saying that a newly minted CIR pilot can use a SID that requires a turn off RWY HDG at 400 feet AGL. How is this different to a VFR pilot, with similar flight hours turning at 500 feet?
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Re: Turn onto xwind and final at 500' - why 500'?
In Ag' we can legally turn after T.O. at 200ft and fly a 500ft circuit at any aerodrome provided appropriate calls are made, however from an Ag' strip it's a whole different ball game.
