who thinks what about IR laws in australia
who thinks what about IR laws in australia
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jacob
It may affect some in Australia but globally, its a non event. In fact, most people probably won't even know what you are talking about.
Some of us know because we read the international media or are connected with the Australian Industry as a user of services or an employer of crews.
Although I am not affected directly, I disagree with them. I cannot undertstand why Australia is so apathetic about politics when clearly the government is bent on degrading worker's conditions.
It will be interesting to see if there is downward pressure on wages as a result. Companies will take advantage of the new laws, no doubt. Each new contract tender may have costs "shaved" to get the contract.
I hope that it works the other way round and that the shortage will result in negotiating power to increase wages, but in many ways, the old system allowed that through the Union.
Experience shows that pilots have only had very short periods of time to take advantage of any shortage to improve conditions before the wheel turns and the cycle repeats itself.
Its irony that the great US power house economy with all its supposed freedoms has strong and coherent pilot union representation within the large helicopter companies which have undeniably improved thier pay and conditions. Australia looks like being the opposite at the moment.
Finally, you probably didn't get many replies because this is a global helicopter forum, not as Australian current affairs opinion forum. Still, I decided to give you mine anyway.
HH
It may affect some in Australia but globally, its a non event. In fact, most people probably won't even know what you are talking about.
Some of us know because we read the international media or are connected with the Australian Industry as a user of services or an employer of crews.
Although I am not affected directly, I disagree with them. I cannot undertstand why Australia is so apathetic about politics when clearly the government is bent on degrading worker's conditions.
It will be interesting to see if there is downward pressure on wages as a result. Companies will take advantage of the new laws, no doubt. Each new contract tender may have costs "shaved" to get the contract.
I hope that it works the other way round and that the shortage will result in negotiating power to increase wages, but in many ways, the old system allowed that through the Union.
Experience shows that pilots have only had very short periods of time to take advantage of any shortage to improve conditions before the wheel turns and the cycle repeats itself.
Its irony that the great US power house economy with all its supposed freedoms has strong and coherent pilot union representation within the large helicopter companies which have undeniably improved thier pay and conditions. Australia looks like being the opposite at the moment.
Finally, you probably didn't get many replies because this is a global helicopter forum, not as Australian current affairs opinion forum. Still, I decided to give you mine anyway.
HH
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This reminds me of those 'work for nothing' posts....
It'll only affect those companies that adhered to whatever is your current system. The rest will continue to flout whatever law exists.
Join a Union & encourage all your colleagues to do the same. Collective Bargaining brings great rewards in other industries as well as in ours overseas. When pilots learn that cutting someone else's each other's throat is cutting their own, we will get somewhere.
It'll only affect those companies that adhered to whatever is your current system. The rest will continue to flout whatever law exists.
Join a Union & encourage all your colleagues to do the same. Collective Bargaining brings great rewards in other industries as well as in ours overseas. When pilots learn that cutting someone else's each other's throat is cutting their own, we will get somewhere.
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I really can't see the problem. If you can't negotiate a wage or salary package for yourself, I understand you can still use someone to do it for you.
As far as the boss not paying a decent ammount of money for what you do, could it be you are asking too much, if not leave, he maybe some sort of a mongrel to work for.............
I honestly think if a Pilot is worth it he/she will be paid well.
I've been a member of a number of unions and can't recall them arranging anything for me other than time off with out pay.
And no I'm not a boss or an employer.
As far as the boss not paying a decent ammount of money for what you do, could it be you are asking too much, if not leave, he maybe some sort of a mongrel to work for.............
I honestly think if a Pilot is worth it he/she will be paid well.
I've been a member of a number of unions and can't recall them arranging anything for me other than time off with out pay.
And no I'm not a boss or an employer.
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I wish all employers were so kind to pay their employees their well deserved pay. and im not saying they're all bad either. Many employers are fair but from my experience MOST ARENT. I dont believe any pilot should be paid less than 20k in their first years. its such a dangerous job, and i'm always hearing about horrible accidents on the news.
if kids start work at 15 why cant they join a union at fifteen.
if kids start work at 15 why cant they join a union at fifteen.
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Well I will give my opinion. People who know my background will realise where I stand comes from a business background of analysis.
Having read some draft provisions of the legislation, I am very concerned for the furture. Whilst specific provisions of the yet to be Act are scary, the macroeconomic theory underpinning it is worse. Almost as bad as the lil gimp in Canberra when quizzed about Dixon's threat to offshore 3000 engineering jobs to China.."Oh well it happens all the time in a globalised market"
Great all that wisdom from a guy on the public purse for at least the last 30years....
So here goes. It appears to me the legislation has at it's core a belief(IMO-ridiculous) that in order to continue as an economy, we must limit the ability of labour to increase remumeration. This is based upon a prolonged skills shortage, exaccerbated by the growth in retirements of the baby boomers. The shoe will increasingly be on the other foot as labour skills shortage bite across many industries where skilled people work. Market economies know that a shortage generates an increase in price. The government is well aware that we face a serious taxation shortfall we will not be able to support our retirees into their retirement.
So in order to preserve relative competitiveness, we import an adversarial system, based on right wing ideology, not suprising enthusiastically supported tby the business council and b@stards like our CEO at QF. Growth in economies to our north, coupled with an aging population, risks the continued growth of our economy and those of most western nations. Recently the USA has acknolwedged that they face increasing competition for the mnantle of a world economic power as China surges ahead...
So instead of making the existing system better, the government can implement anything it wants. They have control of both houses pf parliament.
For people like me, I am an optimist, I hope the opposition and the states will gut the legislation in the High Court. If this legislation beds down we I believe will lose many of the norms we accept today as rights. Mind you it will not happen too fast otherwise the masses will get more spooked.
It is my belief debate will be gagged, the numbers utilised to push through legislation which I think in years to come will have far reaching consequences for the much touted Australian way of life....The devil is certainly in the detail
Having read some draft provisions of the legislation, I am very concerned for the furture. Whilst specific provisions of the yet to be Act are scary, the macroeconomic theory underpinning it is worse. Almost as bad as the lil gimp in Canberra when quizzed about Dixon's threat to offshore 3000 engineering jobs to China.."Oh well it happens all the time in a globalised market"
Great all that wisdom from a guy on the public purse for at least the last 30years....
So here goes. It appears to me the legislation has at it's core a belief(IMO-ridiculous) that in order to continue as an economy, we must limit the ability of labour to increase remumeration. This is based upon a prolonged skills shortage, exaccerbated by the growth in retirements of the baby boomers. The shoe will increasingly be on the other foot as labour skills shortage bite across many industries where skilled people work. Market economies know that a shortage generates an increase in price. The government is well aware that we face a serious taxation shortfall we will not be able to support our retirees into their retirement.
So in order to preserve relative competitiveness, we import an adversarial system, based on right wing ideology, not suprising enthusiastically supported tby the business council and b@stards like our CEO at QF. Growth in economies to our north, coupled with an aging population, risks the continued growth of our economy and those of most western nations. Recently the USA has acknolwedged that they face increasing competition for the mnantle of a world economic power as China surges ahead...
So instead of making the existing system better, the government can implement anything it wants. They have control of both houses pf parliament.
For people like me, I am an optimist, I hope the opposition and the states will gut the legislation in the High Court. If this legislation beds down we I believe will lose many of the norms we accept today as rights. Mind you it will not happen too fast otherwise the masses will get more spooked.
It is my belief debate will be gagged, the numbers utilised to push through legislation which I think in years to come will have far reaching consequences for the much touted Australian way of life....The devil is certainly in the detail
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It is too early to say because the sneaky bastards only released the full detail on the day it was tabled.
As always - the devil is in the detail.
There is no need for it - it is ideologically driven by one person alone.
Perhaps the fact that the coalition backbench are insisting on changes to it gives an idea of how draconian it is.
Don;t be misled by the glossy propoganda - if you can bear to even watch the $M of your money being spent to waste it.
You DO NOT have automatic right to have a union represent you. That is a distortion of the truth. In fact, union official can be fined or even jailed for being in the workplace.
Didn;t see that in the ads.
No doubt there are supporters of this out there - tell me why. And tell me what evidence there is to support this rubbish?
As always - the devil is in the detail.
There is no need for it - it is ideologically driven by one person alone.
Perhaps the fact that the coalition backbench are insisting on changes to it gives an idea of how draconian it is.
Don;t be misled by the glossy propoganda - if you can bear to even watch the $M of your money being spent to waste it.
You DO NOT have automatic right to have a union represent you. That is a distortion of the truth. In fact, union official can be fined or even jailed for being in the workplace.
Didn;t see that in the ads.
No doubt there are supporters of this out there - tell me why. And tell me what evidence there is to support this rubbish?
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We all know that unions are in it for themselves and power, their scare mongering is well known....but nothing really changes...and that is this!!....IF you work for a great company with fantastic people and management...then this I/R cange is the best thing since sliced bread and you won't need it or unions anyway...
IF you work for a bunch of scum-bags...then you won't be surprised at what could or will come, and anywhere in between...well best of luck, but there is one thing for sure, this and really every other government will look after business interests....for without it we have nothing...
That's what Mr Howard meant when he said if you don't like your employer just go and find another job...people will vote with their feet and the scum-bag employers will find it hard to employ anybody...well that's the theory...
IF you work for a bunch of scum-bags...then you won't be surprised at what could or will come, and anywhere in between...well best of luck, but there is one thing for sure, this and really every other government will look after business interests....for without it we have nothing...
That's what Mr Howard meant when he said if you don't like your employer just go and find another job...people will vote with their feet and the scum-bag employers will find it hard to employ anybody...well that's the theory...
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Employers aren't going to give $ away in "collective agreements", "negotiations", and AWA's. I don't think there will be a single employer in the whole country who won't take advantage.
except for my dads employer....which is his cousin. But i bet there aren't many here who work for other family members.
thats my view anyway.
jacob
except for my dads employer....which is his cousin. But i bet there aren't many here who work for other family members.
thats my view anyway.
jacob
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People are prepared to pay 5bucks a week to be a member of a club and get a cheaper beer and a feed - but are too scabby to pay union dues to protect their work conditions.
Go figure.
Go figure.
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If you want to know how well an employee can bargain with his/her employer, ask a GA pilot. What we have now in Australian GA is effectively what is being proposed nationally. We have the award of course, but it is universally ignored, so we are effectively living Howard's fantasy now.
The employee only has a position of power in the negotiation if they are in demand. We have record low unemployment now but that will peak and trough as it always has. This legislation could never go through during a period of high unemployment, hence the Christmas rush.
The employee only has a position of power in the negotiation if they are in demand. We have record low unemployment now but that will peak and trough as it always has. This legislation could never go through during a period of high unemployment, hence the Christmas rush.
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I was on an AWA for the last 10 years of working life---- in mining.
Mining companies didnt like unions for reasons of "stupid strikes",and i mean stupid ie--wrong flavoured ice cream ,pie at work not hot enough etc etc.
Go to a union meeting and see boats on trailers parked outside and you knew which way the vote would go----lets make a long weekend + out of it.
The unions caused there own downfall and people lost thousands a year.
Ok ,the airline industry arent that bad---quite good actually.
So basically our company wanted continual productivity with the least amount of people.You always needed more to catch up lost production,although the consistency was the major factor.
That aside.
We were lucky that they offered us more money to sign.True,everyone was wary and the brown nosers were the first to sign.In the end everyone bar about 5% of the die-hards had signed.Over the years they even signed because why do the same work and get thousands less.
Being shift work our gross pay is worked out as before--ie,public holidays,etc---nothing has changed.
Only crap that has changed is no smoko,s anymore but you can call up for a fatique break-----just mention safety and ya got them around your little finger.
Also the method of a pay rise sucks although it still goes up each year--like going back to school and getting a school report.
In days of old under an hourly rate was about $8 an hour going up to $14 when you had all the skills
The minimum base was starting pay and top base was for a multi task.
Over the years the base has gone from $23-$31 up to $44-$54.
The base is a 40 hour week
Then shift allowance and site allowance
If your a dayshift worker on essential services you get a callout allowance to cover work out of hours.In most cases this is more than covers the work done but is designed for an average.
As far as negotiating your pay is all crap---the starting point is what you are on now.
If you come from another company with full experience then you will have to negotiate as they will only offer the base,but present staff wont have to worry about that.
If ya get the sack or reckon your been hard done by,or all of a sudden doing more hours etc you can go to a "fair treatment"working your way up through the management till your satisfied.If still no good you go to the industrial court and they pay the lawyers bill.
If all thats not in your AWA then think hard.
You do NOT have to sign one and unless there is a reasonable benefit to do so ,its best to stay the way you are.
If you dont sign,maybe they may punish you by not giving you the flights where you get most of your allowances.
Im not for or against them,but just stating my experience.
As for casuals,i dont think its for cheap labour,but mainly for other economic reasons,such as the hype with the bird flue.What if passengers drop by half.In any bussiness you dont want full time staff getting paid when there not needed.
Minings the same but it costs the company more for them than it does for us due to food and room plus paying an employment agency,and the worker gets $10-$15 an hour less with no holidays etc.When theres a downturn "bye bye"-----no redundances etc
WA is on a boom which also benefits Qantas Link.Ask any crew and they will tell, you they havent worked their arse off like this before.
One thing that makes me laugh is everyone bagging Qantas----your not on your own.Being an aviation forum its understandable,but 90% of people bag their companys anyway.
No one has been ,is,or ever will be happy-----thats life.
Works only an interference of life
Mining companies didnt like unions for reasons of "stupid strikes",and i mean stupid ie--wrong flavoured ice cream ,pie at work not hot enough etc etc.
Go to a union meeting and see boats on trailers parked outside and you knew which way the vote would go----lets make a long weekend + out of it.
The unions caused there own downfall and people lost thousands a year.
Ok ,the airline industry arent that bad---quite good actually.
So basically our company wanted continual productivity with the least amount of people.You always needed more to catch up lost production,although the consistency was the major factor.
That aside.
We were lucky that they offered us more money to sign.True,everyone was wary and the brown nosers were the first to sign.In the end everyone bar about 5% of the die-hards had signed.Over the years they even signed because why do the same work and get thousands less.
Being shift work our gross pay is worked out as before--ie,public holidays,etc---nothing has changed.
Only crap that has changed is no smoko,s anymore but you can call up for a fatique break-----just mention safety and ya got them around your little finger.
Also the method of a pay rise sucks although it still goes up each year--like going back to school and getting a school report.
In days of old under an hourly rate was about $8 an hour going up to $14 when you had all the skills
The minimum base was starting pay and top base was for a multi task.
Over the years the base has gone from $23-$31 up to $44-$54.
The base is a 40 hour week
Then shift allowance and site allowance
If your a dayshift worker on essential services you get a callout allowance to cover work out of hours.In most cases this is more than covers the work done but is designed for an average.
As far as negotiating your pay is all crap---the starting point is what you are on now.
If you come from another company with full experience then you will have to negotiate as they will only offer the base,but present staff wont have to worry about that.
If ya get the sack or reckon your been hard done by,or all of a sudden doing more hours etc you can go to a "fair treatment"working your way up through the management till your satisfied.If still no good you go to the industrial court and they pay the lawyers bill.
If all thats not in your AWA then think hard.
You do NOT have to sign one and unless there is a reasonable benefit to do so ,its best to stay the way you are.
If you dont sign,maybe they may punish you by not giving you the flights where you get most of your allowances.
Im not for or against them,but just stating my experience.
As for casuals,i dont think its for cheap labour,but mainly for other economic reasons,such as the hype with the bird flue.What if passengers drop by half.In any bussiness you dont want full time staff getting paid when there not needed.
Minings the same but it costs the company more for them than it does for us due to food and room plus paying an employment agency,and the worker gets $10-$15 an hour less with no holidays etc.When theres a downturn "bye bye"-----no redundances etc
WA is on a boom which also benefits Qantas Link.Ask any crew and they will tell, you they havent worked their arse off like this before.
One thing that makes me laugh is everyone bagging Qantas----your not on your own.Being an aviation forum its understandable,but 90% of people bag their companys anyway.
No one has been ,is,or ever will be happy-----thats life.
Works only an interference of life
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papa smurf,
im sorry to say that your about to get a smack in the head. You see you,ve been talking about the current state. There's this little thing called workchoices which is about to change what an AWA is.
Currently you neither agree nor disagree. I think thats about to change (for the worse)- should these new laws pass.
jacob.
And by the way, your second sentence from the bottom doesn\'t apply to your employer.
im sorry to say that your about to get a smack in the head. You see you,ve been talking about the current state. There's this little thing called workchoices which is about to change what an AWA is.
Currently you neither agree nor disagree. I think thats about to change (for the worse)- should these new laws pass.
jacob.
And by the way, your second sentence from the bottom doesn\'t apply to your employer.
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Jacob,
Given the fact you are 15 years old and still at school, I can't begin to imagine where you have acquired all of your expert knowledge on how the new IR laws will affect you in your current employment.
Also if you're so adamant that you wish to join a union, to ensure you get paid the overtime you're entitled to, and ensure you only work your 40hr week, then I may suggest that you give the ADF a miss as a likely future career.
S64
Given the fact you are 15 years old and still at school, I can't begin to imagine where you have acquired all of your expert knowledge on how the new IR laws will affect you in your current employment.
Also if you're so adamant that you wish to join a union, to ensure you get paid the overtime you're entitled to, and ensure you only work your 40hr week, then I may suggest that you give the ADF a miss as a likely future career.
S64
Last edited by Super 64; 7th Nov 2005 at 02:43.
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instead of thowing away job options we should throw out gay leaders i.e john howard.
dont tell me what career paths arent suitable for me and you., just because of ****e legislation. lets join unions and rally days and fight our way to the top.
to-whoever wrote the last thread to me
jacob
dont tell me what career paths arent suitable for me and you., just because of ****e legislation. lets join unions and rally days and fight our way to the top.
to-whoever wrote the last thread to me
jacob
