Anyone from procedural towers?
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Anyone from procedural towers?
...Do they still call them that?
I'd be interested in finding out what it's like working there as there's a chance this wanderer might be coming home. Any replies greatly appreciated
I'd be interested in finding out what it's like working there as there's a chance this wanderer might be coming home. Any replies greatly appreciated
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go to www.civilair.asn.au and put up a thread there. You will have more luck.
Just Binos
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Still a few of us dinosaurs around. Procedural tower/approach is a very satisfying position for those suited to it. This is unrecognised in the salary scale, but if you want out of the rat race they're worth considering. If you have any particular questions feel free to PM me.
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RAC/OPS
I concur with Binos. I to hope to go back to a procedural tower/app environment one day. That satisfiying I will take the pay cut. Many "young" folk are steering in this direction as the "old" wise ones put the handset down for the last time. If you enjoy being "jack of all trades" in a regional/outstation then this job is for you. PM if you wish
VT
Care to expand??????
I concur with Binos. I to hope to go back to a procedural tower/app environment one day. That satisfiying I will take the pay cut. Many "young" folk are steering in this direction as the "old" wise ones put the handset down for the last time. If you enjoy being "jack of all trades" in a regional/outstation then this job is for you. PM if you wish
VT
Procedural towers work best when the controller sleeps in, Tamworth is the best for that. Mind you things are pretty good down Wagga way with its procedural tower as well
Just Binos
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I very much doubt that the recently registered Vacant Towers will bother responding, since it's perfectly clear he has no idea how procedural towers work.
If there is an ex procedural tower/app controller who has gone to a radar centre and wants to claim it's more complex, I'd like to hear from him/her on this thread. I don't think I'll be knocked over in the rush.
If there is an ex procedural tower/app controller who has gone to a radar centre and wants to claim it's more complex, I'd like to hear from him/her on this thread. I don't think I'll be knocked over in the rush.
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Binos,
Tops (BN) and West (ML) groups have traffic densities and workloads that are far more complex than a procedural tower.
Try this out for size,
Tops Group abutts Ujung, Bali, Melbourne, Moresby FIRs. This requires 3 different cross boundary coordination rules, and 5 Letters of Agreement. Tops also abutts Darwin and Tindal RAAF airspace which requires different coord again with a separate MAT SUPPS.
Tops Sectors abutt Ocean, Reef, and Outback Groups each requiring separate LOAs.
They have A, C, E, and G class airspace. They have trans-continental, oceanic, and radar airspace and a radar procedural mix around Darwin and Tindall.
Aircraft range in performance and size from your GA type bugsmashers to Heavy Jet, not to mention Military types including non-Australian military types often with limited VHF.
Tops uses ADS, CPDLC, HF third party and VHF comms.
Tops uses 3 different track symbols for its Air Situation display. Square - flight plan tracks
Round - radar tracks
Triangles - ADS tracks
Each track requires different type of coord and separation standards.
Tops busiest shifts are the 1400 - 2200 shift and the 2300 - 0600 shift. that's right, the late evening and the doggo.
The weather patterns in Tops airspace for 6 months of the year are monsoonal. Wx diversions of 120nm are not uncommon.
So tell me Binos. Is Mackay tower more complex than that?
Tops (BN) and West (ML) groups have traffic densities and workloads that are far more complex than a procedural tower.
Try this out for size,
Tops Group abutts Ujung, Bali, Melbourne, Moresby FIRs. This requires 3 different cross boundary coordination rules, and 5 Letters of Agreement. Tops also abutts Darwin and Tindal RAAF airspace which requires different coord again with a separate MAT SUPPS.
Tops Sectors abutt Ocean, Reef, and Outback Groups each requiring separate LOAs.
They have A, C, E, and G class airspace. They have trans-continental, oceanic, and radar airspace and a radar procedural mix around Darwin and Tindall.
Aircraft range in performance and size from your GA type bugsmashers to Heavy Jet, not to mention Military types including non-Australian military types often with limited VHF.
Tops uses ADS, CPDLC, HF third party and VHF comms.
Tops uses 3 different track symbols for its Air Situation display. Square - flight plan tracks
Round - radar tracks
Triangles - ADS tracks
Each track requires different type of coord and separation standards.
Tops busiest shifts are the 1400 - 2200 shift and the 2300 - 0600 shift. that's right, the late evening and the doggo.
The weather patterns in Tops airspace for 6 months of the year are monsoonal. Wx diversions of 120nm are not uncommon.
So tell me Binos. Is Mackay tower more complex than that?
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More Tissues please................
DirtyPierre
You poor darling, you are kidding eh?
Are you one of those that applied and got knocked back?
This was a simple request from someone about getting into a Tower and you come up with this rubbish.
You obviously have no idea what happens in a Tower.
You giveth, now taketh,
Can you read?
Sorry, I missed what Tower you came from.
Nice and cosy in the centre? More money, Ausstar, comfy rec rooms. State of the art console and all those wonderful tools, Team Leaders, OM's, etc. Everything on a platter. Break's every 1.5-2.0 hours?
Miles of airspace, taaats tools, comms and all the info you need at your fingertips........oh I forgot.... the wx
Before you go and slag more Tower people - go and work in one, you might even enjoy it, you WILL find it more complex than en-route, if you can peel yourself away from the struggle of different airspace, different ranges of aircraft performance and all your abutting airspace etc.
It is people like you who divide the members and sell the Towers out. Just keep thinking of yourself in the EBA. United remember
Oh sorry, for the record, yes I did go en-route to outstation and back to the big world. Will settle for the outstation anyday.
You poor darling, you are kidding eh?
Are you one of those that applied and got knocked back?
This was a simple request from someone about getting into a Tower and you come up with this rubbish.
You obviously have no idea what happens in a Tower.
You giveth, now taketh,
Can you read?
If there is an ex procedural tower/app controller who has gone to a radar centre and wants to claim it's more complex, I'd like to hear from him/her on this thread. I don't think I'll be knocked over in the rush.
Nice and cosy in the centre? More money, Ausstar, comfy rec rooms. State of the art console and all those wonderful tools, Team Leaders, OM's, etc. Everything on a platter. Break's every 1.5-2.0 hours?
Miles of airspace, taaats tools, comms and all the info you need at your fingertips........oh I forgot.... the wx
Before you go and slag more Tower people - go and work in one, you might even enjoy it, you WILL find it more complex than en-route, if you can peel yourself away from the struggle of different airspace, different ranges of aircraft performance and all your abutting airspace etc.
It is people like you who divide the members and sell the Towers out. Just keep thinking of yourself in the EBA. United remember
Oh sorry, for the record, yes I did go en-route to outstation and back to the big world. Will settle for the outstation anyday.
Just Binos
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So tell me Binos. Is Mackay tower more complex than that?
I've been fortunate enough to spend almost all my ATC career in a tower. I'm not here to compare willies with anybody. When you've had experience of coping with the transition between approach and tower functions, let me know. I do note that the only respondent to my earlier question hasn't come from an ex-procedural tower controller.
I'm available on PM if you want to take it further.
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Ah Dirty P,
methinks thou doth protest too much. Don't like your job huh?
In answer to RAC/OPS and Binos .. I have worked procedural towers in PNG, Queensland and the ME and I have worked en-route procedural and radar en-route and approach at several locations, many busier than any Oz sector, and I can honestly say that, whilst a busy radar approach sector can provide a high degree of satisfaction ............ there ain't nothin like a procedural tower for job enjoyment.
I may be a dinosaur but I don't care. I am back in a procedural tower after a long break, and I'm loving it.......most of the time
methinks thou doth protest too much. Don't like your job huh?
In answer to RAC/OPS and Binos .. I have worked procedural towers in PNG, Queensland and the ME and I have worked en-route procedural and radar en-route and approach at several locations, many busier than any Oz sector, and I can honestly say that, whilst a busy radar approach sector can provide a high degree of satisfaction ............ there ain't nothin like a procedural tower for job enjoyment.
I may be a dinosaur but I don't care. I am back in a procedural tower after a long break, and I'm loving it.......most of the time
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This was a simple request from someone about getting into a Tower and you come up with this rubbish.
No I'm not in a procedural tower, but what do you know of my ATC experience. Worked with me in the last 22+ years?
Before you go and slag more Tower people
I love my job. Otherwise I wouldn't have been doing it for so long. And if you think I protest to much, show me where I'm wrong.
Last edited by DirtyPierre; 23rd Oct 2005 at 12:48.
Just Binos
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I have no suggestion that Pierre was slagging off at tower people; he wasn't, any more than I'm doing with en-route. I'm also aware that TOPS can be a nightmare, and my very brief encounter with en-route I found very unsatisfying. Sounds as though Pierre was ex-military, perhaps ex-FS (as am I) but none of the places he mentioned are actually procedural towers, unless he was ATC at Mt Isa before it closed down, so there does remain the niggling matter of qualifications to comment on them.
That aside, I'm not interested in running down any of my colleagues. My point was that like TwoDogs, I have generally found procedural app/twr to be enormously satisfying in that you are handed off the crap and are paid to sort it out, just you, from the time they call till they're on the ground. That transition that I mentioned from approach to aerodrome control doesn't happen anywhere else these days.
I might add that since Cathro has departed the scene having failed in his appointed mission of privatising towers, ASA appear to have woken up to the uncomfortable fact that the age profiles in outstation towers suck, so now we find ourselves a training waypoint for ab-initios. I think this will end in tears, but that's another story!
It won't be in my remaining time but one day outstation tower controllers will be paid the same as en-route. Perhaps that will keep the dinosaurs happy! (And no, I'm not complaining about my salary).
I'd still like to hear if there are any ex-outstation guys who moved on and found the work more challenging or satisfying?
That aside, I'm not interested in running down any of my colleagues. My point was that like TwoDogs, I have generally found procedural app/twr to be enormously satisfying in that you are handed off the crap and are paid to sort it out, just you, from the time they call till they're on the ground. That transition that I mentioned from approach to aerodrome control doesn't happen anywhere else these days.
I might add that since Cathro has departed the scene having failed in his appointed mission of privatising towers, ASA appear to have woken up to the uncomfortable fact that the age profiles in outstation towers suck, so now we find ourselves a training waypoint for ab-initios. I think this will end in tears, but that's another story!
It won't be in my remaining time but one day outstation tower controllers will be paid the same as en-route. Perhaps that will keep the dinosaurs happy! (And no, I'm not complaining about my salary).
I'd still like to hear if there are any ex-outstation guys who moved on and found the work more challenging or satisfying?
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Binos,
Thank you. I wasn't having a go at anyone, just refuting your statement.
BTW, Willy used to be a procedural tower when the controller isn't approach (radar) rated. Not sure if that still happens. (Bit of a dinosaur in that department myself).
Twodogs,
Agreed, I'd love to work procedural towers again, nothing better than actually seeing the aircraft you're talking to. (so thats what a DASH 8 looks like!), but because of the CDP (which binos mentioned) and the fact I'm not in the ASG (Towers group) I don't even get an interview for all the tower vacancies I apply for.
Binos,
Next time I'm in Mackay I must call in and say hello. I normally come up once a year for the rugby (Qld country versus whoever out at Quarry Hill).
Thank you. I wasn't having a go at anyone, just refuting your statement.
BTW, Willy used to be a procedural tower when the controller isn't approach (radar) rated. Not sure if that still happens. (Bit of a dinosaur in that department myself).
Twodogs,
Agreed, I'd love to work procedural towers again, nothing better than actually seeing the aircraft you're talking to. (so thats what a DASH 8 looks like!), but because of the CDP (which binos mentioned) and the fact I'm not in the ASG (Towers group) I don't even get an interview for all the tower vacancies I apply for.
Binos,
Next time I'm in Mackay I must call in and say hello. I normally come up once a year for the rugby (Qld country versus whoever out at Quarry Hill).
Just Binos
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Would be a pleasure, Pierre. Just mention the day and I'll join you. Don't forget the Pineapple in January though!
It's funny you mention lots of Brisbane ATC wanting to get out. The experience up around this neck of the woods is that when a vacancy is advertised, few are the applications finally received from experienced controllers. Actually agreeing to take a pay cut would seem to be quite difficult when the time comes to sign the paper.
It's funny you mention lots of Brisbane ATC wanting to get out. The experience up around this neck of the woods is that when a vacancy is advertised, few are the applications finally received from experienced controllers. Actually agreeing to take a pay cut would seem to be quite difficult when the time comes to sign the paper.
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Binos,
Pineapple Hotel - I'm there. Just to talk to Jerricho & Plazbot together.
The big complaint in Brissie at the moment (apart from the current CA negotiations) is that when a tower vacancy comes along, we in ATM miss out. Myself, and a number of others have applied numerous times for various outstation towers, but we miss out because we are not ASG (District).
I'm sure there are some in the CDP who would like to come to BN or ML Centre, we are actually short staffed. That's one of the reasons we go TIBA so often, and one of the reasons they won't release staff if they do win a position at a tower.
Bugger!
Pineapple Hotel - I'm there. Just to talk to Jerricho & Plazbot together.
The big complaint in Brissie at the moment (apart from the current CA negotiations) is that when a tower vacancy comes along, we in ATM miss out. Myself, and a number of others have applied numerous times for various outstation towers, but we miss out because we are not ASG (District).
I'm sure there are some in the CDP who would like to come to BN or ML Centre, we are actually short staffed. That's one of the reasons we go TIBA so often, and one of the reasons they won't release staff if they do win a position at a tower.
Bugger!
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Well, I don't know much about the different ATC workloads, but this morning going though Binos neck of the woods, I was kinda impressed with the following.
DME arival conditions, 1 x B1900 from the north, 2x Lear 45's requesting INST APP due training requirments, 1 x Dash 8 from the north, 1 x Dash 8 from the south, 1 helicopter departing to the N/E and three piston aircraft inbound from various directions with one ending up conducting a missed for whatever reason and wanting space to check out an issue.
And just about all the the turbine and jet aircraft were on quick turnarounds.
As well as having to organize taxying and parking designed for less than was looking,... and I think a 737 and 717/A320 were due very shortly after.
I don't know what the rest of the day was like but this was a 20 minute snapshot. (And handover/takeover phone calls to boot).
It worked well.
DME arival conditions, 1 x B1900 from the north, 2x Lear 45's requesting INST APP due training requirments, 1 x Dash 8 from the north, 1 x Dash 8 from the south, 1 helicopter departing to the N/E and three piston aircraft inbound from various directions with one ending up conducting a missed for whatever reason and wanting space to check out an issue.
And just about all the the turbine and jet aircraft were on quick turnarounds.
As well as having to organize taxying and parking designed for less than was looking,... and I think a 737 and 717/A320 were due very shortly after.
I don't know what the rest of the day was like but this was a 20 minute snapshot. (And handover/takeover phone calls to boot).
It worked well.
Last edited by Black Maria; 24th Oct 2005 at 10:31.