Aerotropics?

[jangerlingjangerling]

What is the deal with Aerotropics taking money each week from their pilots to pay for the training they are getting for their islanders. They are already getting far below what they deserve but this seems to be a bit of a farce? Also heard that they dont assist peoples family in visiting the pilots on horn eg staff travel on tropics aircraft. That lovely lady who lost her husband on the Lockart metro started to shed light on this in the "Australian" several months back.
Taking money from underpaid pilots in remote areas where food is so expensive has got be a joke.

Wake up Aerotropics and treat your pilots better


By the way never been to Horn or GA side of Cairns airport

[Lisag]

Hi
jangerlingjangerling,

Yes that lovely lady is me and I can certainly confirm, and I obviously made it very public, that Aero-Tropics took a bond from my late husband's pay-cheque for his training on the bongo.

They did however offer a discount for family (wife, children) to travel on their airline.

I'm not so lovely anymore!

More to come!

cheers,
Fiona Norris

[dougiehouserMD]

I worked for this mob not that long back and would advise the following...

In my opinion, holding professional qualifications such as a CPL/ATPL and M/E CIR with 1500+ hours (av qual's of guys joining) deserves respect in my book. The same way I respect engineers for all the hard work they have done to get where they are.

Aero Tropics shows absolutely no respect to their pilots and makes you feel like absolute scum... for what? Oh yeah, they are giving you the “privilege” of flying a twin (BN2!) on "so called" RPT routes... wow!

Get your hand off it Aero Tropics and start treating your pilots with the respect and decency they and all others deserve. And while im on a roll, take a good look at the “Check and Training” that you are providing... everything from line training, endorsements and checks are by far the worst standards I have come across.

The moral amongst pilots was that of constant everyday negativity towards the company and their operations and the like stated above.

If your are reading this RL start making some changes mate... I know you and other management have tried to address these concerns in the past by making special trips to Horn but talk is cheap cobba. It takes more than a free feed at the pub and cheap XXXX Gold cans to win over an angry group of pilots.

They didn't have the training bond when I was there but to hear that these poor blokes are now being bonded truely indicates the type of people who are running the show. And before people start saying that they "had" to bond people cause they have such a high turn over of pilots well that again is their own fault... Its pretty simple logic - pay them correctly, give them an organised week (a real roster), give them a chance to get to Cairns to see the real world every now and then and for god sake treat them with some respect.

These pilots are not 200hr fresh CPL's, they have some decent experience under their belts and shouldn't be forced into doing jobs as sweeping hangar floors or washing the head engineers cars just to prove they are a "company" man.

All I can say is, if you want to treat your pilots like this, don’t get p!ssed off when they pack up and leave at short notice... bonding is not the answer... not even close.

And to top it off, due to some expansion and securing some new contracts, Aero Tropics is seen by potential new pilots as being up there with Skytrans, Hinterland etc... New pilots beware, Aero Tropics does not even come close to these companies.

I thought I had a pretty bad job before I joined Aero Tropics... I say no more.

[Ace on Base]

I may be stirring the pudding a bit here, but a very valid question -

I recall a company in the straits that had their AOC revoked after a fatal accident on one of the outer islands. How is it that Aerotropics has slipped under CASA's radar and are still operating RPT?

If this has already been discussed on a different thread - sorry, I didnt do my research!

Keep Smilin' Sunshiners!!

Ace

[Mainframe]

DougiehouserMD

A/T did not "secure" new contracts, they were "given" two DOTARS contracts, despite not meeting the tender specs, after the last elections.

There were highly compliant, qualified and reputable tenderers overlooked, much to the naive surprise of all.

Ace on Base

I recall that A/T's neighbour had their RPT AOC revoked because that operator became bogged,
after receiving a false strip-condition report.

Rumour has it that A/T has had 4 aircraft boggings this year (March and July, and the wet is not here yet!), so far,
and without the inconvenience of having their RPT AOC revoked.

Either the gods are smiling on them, or something is happening behind the scenes, in politics, to afford this level of protection.

It is interesting to note that an affiliated political party gave the Government control of the senate as from July 1st.

All is not as it seems, and all will eventually come out in the wash, as it usually does.

[crash_comics]

Lawn Mower

Did the fiasco of blamming the piolots for the seized engine on the lawn mower ever get sorted out. I recall a quote from the engineering department..."if they don't put oil in the lawn mower, how do we know if they put oil in the planes?". May I add that the accomodation in Horn Island is demoralizing as well.

[captain bling]

So, they managed to get bogged again huh....mmmmmmm.......so, this time did they manage to find the station they were suppose to land at before they managed to bog themslves?, or did they decide that near enough (i.e. 5 NM away) was good enough?

Who was diving this time? - PB ??? oh well, i guess that daddies Dash 8 might have some equipment on board to help him find that big airport in Cairns, wouldnt want you to mistake Mareeba for Cairns and get bogged.

Are these guys operating the Mail Run as RPT. .... would you allow your family to travel on an aerotropics aircraft ??????

[Captain Starlight]

Captain Bling and Mainframe

Rumour has it, and CASA's Web site confirms it, this company does not hold an RPT for any of the mail runs.

Rumour has it that you don't need an RPT AOC if you use a loophole called the "interposed travel agent".

This clever little dodge was dreamed up to beat RPT rules in the straits when LCRPT was first introduced.

It was verified as valid, but not implemented and tested up there.

Paying passengers are being carried on a scheduled service that doesn't have an RPT AOC to legitimise it.

Who cares about CASA when they can be so easily sidestepped.

By sheer coincidence, a former employee just happens to be the "interposed travel agent".

A trawl through the AAT records will find that person adversely mentioned
with regards to another earlier operation in the straights.

For those who wish to set up an RPT operation and wish to avoid all the processes that CASA insist on, here's how:

you just simply set up a licenced travel agency, that agency then charters your aircraft, sells and fills the seats,
and CASA can watch helplessly while they get on with surveilling those operators who go through the "normal" process.

Forget the level playing field, this isn't cricket, but who cares?

[Mainframe]

Captain Starlight

Sounds like a good idea:

Save money on maintenance, no need for for class A maintenance all that goes with it.

Save money on check and training, not needed.

Big saving here, no route checks, no proficiency checks, no recency etc, this is brilliant!

AND BEST OF ALL, it has CASA's blessing.

And just to round off the savings, don't worry about paying the award.

This is great, sounds like a licence to print money.

somehow I think my earlier comment might have to be withdrawn

"all is not as it seems, and all will eventually come out in the wash, as it usually does"

This is marvellous stuff, bet VB and J* wish they'd have thought of it when they started up.

[The Bullwinkle]

dougiehouserMD

The so-called "PROFESIONAL PILOT" who flew Islanders at 14,000 feet without oxygen, did daily inspection and run-ups in less time than anybody else could even walk to the aircraft. Doesn't bother carrying licence and medical when CASA are up on Horn Island.

All I can say is, if you want to treat your pilots like this, don’t get p!ssed off when they pack up and leave at short notice

Nobody was pissed off when you left. Relieved is probably a more appropriate word. You were an accident waiting to happen, and thankfully when it did, you at least had the decency to do it with another company. Yes, we heard all about your antics after you left Aerotropics.

You are obviously still very childish. Grow up a bit and get on with your life. I thought becoming a father might have matured you, but then again, that's another story for another day.

Wind your neck in you unprofessional excuse for a pilot.

Rant over.

[aerotropics]

jangerlingjangerling, for your information, "the deal" with Aero-Tropics is that it is doing it's damnedest to beat the odds for GA business. It has not been helped by a rash of pilots who have made a career out of ladderclimbing, with no regard to their word or professional commitment. These guys come knocking on our door begging for a position, promising "Mr, Mr, Let me fly your airplanes, I'll be most comitted to you and your company, and yes, I'll make a commitment to stay for 12 months etc etc" In good faith we employ them, making it clear up front what we will pay them, how we will train them, and what will be expected of them (professional conduct for at least 12 months to offset the training we put into them). In many cases some of these guys dont even meet the regulatory minimum experience requirements stipulated by CASA for RPT operations, which means more training / ICUS etc on our part. In the past, on a handshake we have agreed on the 12 month commitment. Then, after 1-2 months on Horn Is. they start pumping out resumes to Jet/Turboprop operators en masse. Inevitably, after a further few months one of those operators offers them a job similar to the following manner; "we have a (aircraft type) course starting the day after tomorrow, be on it or miss out." Captain Ladderclimber calls me up and says "Thanks for the twin hours I needed, I'm out of here tomorrow, bye." I have just spent in the vicinity of $5k training this guy, giving him the endorsement/line training he needed to fly my RPT airplane, and before I can even dream of recouping what I have spent, he is gone, without even the professional courtesy of reasonable notice. It's no skin off Capt Laderclimber's nose, he's now got the job he always wanted, but who will fly my airplane tomorrow? And what about the money I invested in him?

Well we got sick of it. And by the way, if these guys keep their commitment, they get every cent of their training bond back after 12 months service, and as it came out of their pay in small amounts over time they didn't even have to find the cash in first place. I don't think you'll find Virgin paying their pilots their $35k 737 endorsement back at any time.

Unfortunately, as usual, it was the minority who ruined it for the masses. Mostly, we find professional pilots (as are our current crew) of good professional character. After 12 months or more if they choose, we are only too pleased to see them all achieve their career goals. I have many past employees in Qantas, Australian, Virgin, who I feel a sense of pride towards in developing their careers. Many of whom still wander in our office from time to time to say Hi.

Capt Paul Norris was one of the good guys, and I'm certain the bond would not have been necessary with his honourable character. As it was, no bonds had been withheld fom his pay, and if it were it would have been returned to his estate without delay.

I hope the above has been informative, and let's not make pprune an employer slagging match. No one forces pilots to work here, they do it of their own free will.

As for the rest of the spineless anonymous remarks above, you can expect to be treated like a professional when you begin to act like one. How about trying to be part of the solution rather than adding to the problem.

Regards,
RL

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Bullwinkle, thats not the best of it,

What about the Instrument Rating Renewal he failed at Horn a couple of months before he left.

When asked by the ATO " What are the requirements for descent below LSALT at Night" he responded with " Derrr, I shouldn't be flying at night, should be at home drinking beer".

Or who starts drinking at 4pm the day before he left Horn Island, then jumped into one of the Bongo vans at midnight and did a beat up on the township ( obviously still drinking untill that time ).

You wouldn't be where you are without your Horn time, be that good or bad.

[Bashinabout]

Unless your facts are scrupulously right you really should be a little more careful about what you say. Incorrect facts aired in such a public way can do major harm to a company.

As for the pay and conditions, enough has been said on this topic, much of which I do agree with. However, accepting the position is accepting the pay too.

As for getting bogged or misidentifying a station strip, GET OVER IT! On an anonymous forum you are happy to beat your chests, but how many of you guys have seen these strips? And how many of you would bet your left leg that after some rain you wouldn’t get bogged too? Or misidentify a strip? Dry versus wet looks a whole lot different from the air……

[jangerlingjangerling]

Dear RL - Aerotropics

Dear RL - Aerotropics

I appreciate your response to my thread, it is always good to see some people not hide behind false names and play games, from that perspective you have my respect. I acknowledge that getting by in GA is tough and indeed it is a cut throat industry. I would like to add a few of my perspectives to some of your points.

Ladder climbing - Operators should understand that the majority of pilots have aspirations to move on from piston GA into jet or turboprops. The money (especially what your company offers) is just not enough for one mouth to get by on, let alone a family. Happy workers will stay for a while and staff retention shouldn't be a problem if you keep a happy ship. Your main rival from what I understand is Skytrans. They pay award and don’t have their pay packets docked for a training bond. From what I understand they shake hands and have a gentlemens agreements with the boss for at least 12months and due to the fact that they are kept happy, they stay for at least 12 months.
By suggesting that because virgin ask you to throw $30k at an endo, that it justifies you to bond for training, I can't see your logic. I understand that when someone new is put on that there are some initial training costs. The figure you throw around is $5k. Apart from the endo training on the bongo, aren't most of your ICUS runs done on paying services already, so in a sense all that is lost is 80kg or so of payload of which I'm sure the trainee is offloaded before a paying pax. What I think is lost here also is that every time that pilot goes to work he/she is also making money for the company. So in 2/3 months that pilot would have easily recouped you actual training outlay. The pilot goes to work to get paid, gain experience and in doing so makes money for the boss/company every flight.
From what I understand the accommodation is fairly substandard for the tropics guys/girls on Horn and to only pay them around $28k a year for an RPT standard pilot why wouldn't a pilot start to look at greener pastures after a few months?
Some of your guys and girls have family in Cairns and they should have more of an opportunity to get back there or have their family members taken up to horn at reasonable staff rates of course not at the expense of a full paying customer. Normal standby staff travel is not a illegitimate expense.

Your staff retention will change significantly if you just did a few things
- pay award - legal minimum
- look to improve accommodation on Horn.
- Make better access for family members to visit or be visited.
- Don’t insult your pilots by pulling cash from their pay for training, the only companies that make you bond for training is Skippers and aerotropics (not for only for endo but for training) and guess what they too have retention problems. Training is a cost that all companies have to bare. This extra cost to your pilots who are earning you money is insulting to them and no wonder they start to look further a field.

Thanks RL for replying to the thread, I know several former and current employees of your company and I have always thought very highly of your staff and your operation but I felt compelled to ask a few questions regarding the current conditions especially when your competition is doing the right thing by their staff and aerotropics staff morale is at an all time low. I look forward to reading positive threads in the future about this once great northern Australian company. Thanks RL for your time and this wasn’t meant as an insult just an opportunity to look at things from another perspective.

[piston captain]

I know a few tropo's boys and the latest is, they're being asked to sign a contract AFTER they have been employed so the company can recoup training costs.

How the hell can you have the audacity to ask someone to re-sign a contract AFTER they're employed? I think thats a bit rich considering they already have an agreement in place.

Also the turnaround time expected from the pilots is appalling!
15 mins to get pax out, unload, reload, recalc wt and balance and then prepare the a/c for departure. Whether the boys can do it or not is irrelevant, it just looking for trouble.

[J430]

Turnarounds

Piston mate,

You raise a very good point, for any operator.

Look at the report on the Cherokee 6 at Hamilton Island a few years ago. Apart from some poor choices in lifestyle by the pilot, rushing pre takeoff and intersection departures all because of too tight a schedule may have been the last few holes in the bit of swiss cheese to line up.

J

[The Bullwinkle]

From what I understand the accommodation is fairly substandard for the tropics guys/girls on Horn

Airconditioned, fully furnished. Beats the hell out of the Mozzie hut in Kowanyama. I suppose it's all relative. If you have just moved out of Mummy and Daddy's house on the North shores of Sydney, it probably is substandard.

Some of your guys and girls have family in Cairns

And some have family in Melbourne, or Sydney or Perth. Hell, I didn't see my parents for over 3 years while I was pursuing my career. It was my choice. Why should the employer have to foot the bill?

Also the turnaround time expected from the pilots is appalling! 15 mins to get pax out, unload, reload, recalc wt and balance and then prepare the a/c for departure.

If a 737 with 180 pax can be turned around in 30 mins, a couple of pax in a bongo in 15 mins is quite achieveable. At least it used to be, back when we just got the job done. Hell, I even had time to grab a quick smoke during turnarounds (back in the days when I indulged in that disgusting habit).

As was pointed out previously, nobody held a gun to anybody's head. If you don't like the pay and conditions, don't accept the job. Maybe you would like RL to move Horn Island 428 nautical miles down the coast to keep you happy. Horn is where it is, the work is there, the hours are there if you want them, and you can make some great friends and some great memories if you so wish. Is the glass half full or half empty? All depends on your attitude.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Piston and Jangerling,

I do not and have not worked for Aerotropics, although i have spent a fair amount of time in the Cairns / Torres region.

There is quite alot that you two have stated that is quite simply, wrong.

The agreements / talk about wages and conditions ( interview ) is done before commencment of employment, i know that personally, so for all that accept the position / conditions do so of their own free will.

Legal minimum, well have a bit of a surf through PPRUNe and you'll find that the award for us pilots in QLD is the State Minimum Award, which is the absolute minimum that any industry is required to pay, $400 odd per week, talk to QLD Industrial relations if you do not believe me.

Accomodation, well the houses on Horn ( being every structure that a person lives in ) is of a very different standard to that in Sydney or Brisbane.

No pilot is obligated to live in the company accomodation, they can go rent a unit, it would cost about the same.

From my first hand experience when over at the troppo's house on the various celebrations, most of the issues with the accomodation are due to pissed residents smashing things, or not cleaning up after themselves.

Better Access for Family, give me a break, there are two Sunstate flights a day, do you think that the aviation companies up there are adult day care centres ?.

What if RL only employed pilots that were endorsed on type, how would you like that option ?.

The jobs there and places like Halls Creek are, and always have been what they are, unless you say no at the interview you do not have a leg to stand on.

It's because of pilots like you that do not meet your handshake agreements and have accepted jobs for these wages and conditions, which in the harsh light of day you are not willing to honour that these conditions exist.

If you dont like the Pay "or" Conditions, just say "no".

If you say yes and do not honour your commitment, It makes me happy to know Aerotropics will grind you into the dirt when QANTAS rings.

You guys should get your facts straight.

[piston captain]

LHR I too have not worked or do not work for aerotropics, but I have done time in the Torres.

Mate I agree completely that pay/conditions, training bond etc would be discussed at the interview and it's up to each individual to decide whether they want the job/hours or not. No one is forced to take the job.
I'd also go further and say there are people in this industry (not aerotropics related) who are hardly 'company orientated' and have no intention of sticking to their handshake agreements, it's a fact of GA. READ: It isn't always the company.

HOWEVER I'm here to tell you that there IS people being asked to sign contracts AFTER their employment has already commenced, by several months actually. That IS out of line condsidering an agreement is already made. Pretty happy with where my facts lie on that issue, maybe you need to ask a few more people?

If a 737 with 180 pax can be turned around in 30 mins, a couple of pax in a bongo in 15 mins is quite achieveable

True, however how many people are assisting with the turnaround? It's hardly comparing apples with apples now is it?
I'm not suggesting that it can't be done, I think the crews prove that it can. I'm simply implying that I don't think it's particularly good from a safety perspective. 15mins is pretty tight and when things are rushed things are forgotten or done "on the run" and we all know how good that is.

[The Bullwinkle]

I too have not worked or do not work for aerotropics

I have, and the turnaround times are ample.