Pilots requesting ammended levels
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Pilots requesting ammended levels
G'day all,
Just a quick one. Not a big deal, but why do a lot of pilots ask for an ammended level after they are cleared to their planned level if they knew they wanted it in the first place?
Here is an example:
"Melbourne Centre, XXX123 climbing to FL200"
"XXX123, Melbourne Centre, climb to FL390" (Planned Level)
"Climb to FL390, requesting ammended FL370, XXX123"
"XXX123, climb to ammened FL370"
"Climb to FL370, XXX123"
I can undestand if you find a nice smooth level at a later stage in climb and ask for it then, but why not ask on first contact with centre if you know you want it? In cases where an ammended level is asked for, the above scenario happens in about 70% of cases. Just seems like a waste of time really.
Cheers,
NFR
Just a quick one. Not a big deal, but why do a lot of pilots ask for an ammended level after they are cleared to their planned level if they knew they wanted it in the first place?
Here is an example:
"Melbourne Centre, XXX123 climbing to FL200"
"XXX123, Melbourne Centre, climb to FL390" (Planned Level)
"Climb to FL390, requesting ammended FL370, XXX123"
"XXX123, climb to ammened FL370"
"Climb to FL370, XXX123"
I can undestand if you find a nice smooth level at a later stage in climb and ask for it then, but why not ask on first contact with centre if you know you want it? In cases where an ammended level is asked for, the above scenario happens in about 70% of cases. Just seems like a waste of time really.
Cheers,
NFR
No Further Requirements
At flight planning our cruise level is based on a number of factors. They are:
1. Weight
2. wind
3. ISA deviation in temp
4. Cost at various levels i.e. fuel v flight time
5. etc.
Things do have a habit of changing after the flight plan was filed by dispatch. We may have to change out level because our weight has changed. If our weight has gone up then we may have to lower our planned level. Of course we know this before pushback and would request a lower lever with our clearance request if this was the case. ISA deviations hotter than expected can also make it difficult to reach our planned level though personally I can only remember this happening a few times. The main reason I would ask for a lower level is if we pushed back late and I was trying to make up time. TAS for the aircraft I fly tends to be higher in the low 30’s than the high. The penalty though for this is a higher specific fuel burn. In this case we have decided that OTP is more important than fuel burn as the knock on effect if we were late into Hong Kong can be enormous and potentially is very expensive for my company.
At flight planning our cruise level is based on a number of factors. They are:
1. Weight
2. wind
3. ISA deviation in temp
4. Cost at various levels i.e. fuel v flight time
5. etc.
Things do have a habit of changing after the flight plan was filed by dispatch. We may have to change out level because our weight has changed. If our weight has gone up then we may have to lower our planned level. Of course we know this before pushback and would request a lower lever with our clearance request if this was the case. ISA deviations hotter than expected can also make it difficult to reach our planned level though personally I can only remember this happening a few times. The main reason I would ask for a lower level is if we pushed back late and I was trying to make up time. TAS for the aircraft I fly tends to be higher in the low 30’s than the high. The penalty though for this is a higher specific fuel burn. In this case we have decided that OTP is more important than fuel burn as the knock on effect if we were late into Hong Kong can be enormous and potentially is very expensive for my company.
NFR,
I think that the answer that is closest to the truth is that we think of it well before we get transferred to the sector that issues the final level, and then have a brainfart and then forget to mention it on first contact.
You guys give us the planned level and we remember that the planned level wasn't what we really wanted and then ask for the new level.
It really is that simple - we tend to look at it on the ground after the final figures are in the box and make a mental note to ask for a different level - and promptly forget!
Most of us are blokes and as my wife will tell you we can only do one thing at a time, and the pushenpullenstick is the one thing we are concentrating on when we call you!
We don't do it to piss you off - honest! just like you guys don't issue us with late reductions in descent speed just after we commence descent and instantly make us high on profile just to piss us off.....but both work!
I think that the answer that is closest to the truth is that we think of it well before we get transferred to the sector that issues the final level, and then have a brainfart and then forget to mention it on first contact.
You guys give us the planned level and we remember that the planned level wasn't what we really wanted and then ask for the new level.
It really is that simple - we tend to look at it on the ground after the final figures are in the box and make a mental note to ask for a different level - and promptly forget!
Most of us are blokes and as my wife will tell you we can only do one thing at a time, and the pushenpullenstick is the one thing we are concentrating on when we call you!
We don't do it to piss you off - honest! just like you guys don't issue us with late reductions in descent speed just after we commence descent and instantly make us high on profile just to piss us off.....but both work!
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NFR,
That could have been us last week. At around the time we changed frequency, we'd also changed the Cost Index for the cruise. This reduced the optimum level for cruise and so we requested the lower level. It just happened that it coincided with the freq change. Otherwise it would have been"Climbing F200, request amended F370" which would have saved the verbiage.
G'day
That could have been us last week. At around the time we changed frequency, we'd also changed the Cost Index for the cruise. This reduced the optimum level for cruise and so we requested the lower level. It just happened that it coincided with the freq change. Otherwise it would have been"Climbing F200, request amended F370" which would have saved the verbiage.
G'day
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404 Titan and Dehavillanddriver have pretty much covered it.
I try to remember to request the lower level (usually due to higher weight) on transfer, but when the controller clears us to the originally flight planned level, that is the time that we usually remember.
I try to remember to request the lower level (usually due to higher weight) on transfer, but when the controller clears us to the originally flight planned level, that is the time that we usually remember.
For those of us driving lesser machines without FMS etc, a simple glance at the GPS during the climb may indicate a stronger headwind than forcast which would make us want to level out earlier as wind speeds tend to increase with altitude, and the TAS will be higher lower down. Increased fuel burn at lower altitude not too much of a factor on some types.
Of course if a good tail wind is encountered I want to keep going up for as long as the increase in wind speed compensates for the reducing TAS.
Also if the wind direction is backing or veering with altitude, and the wind is a crosswind on planned track, a change of level may turn a 20kt headwind component into a 20kt tailwind component when cross winds of 60kts plus are encountered.
Suck it and see applies sometimes.
Of course if a good tail wind is encountered I want to keep going up for as long as the increase in wind speed compensates for the reducing TAS.
Also if the wind direction is backing or veering with altitude, and the wind is a crosswind on planned track, a change of level may turn a 20kt headwind component into a 20kt tailwind component when cross winds of 60kts plus are encountered.
Suck it and see applies sometimes.
Nunc est bibendum
G'day NFR,
Good question. DHD is absolutely spot on. We forget. When you do hear us ask for the amdned level on first contact, it'll probably be the F/O on the radio. The skippers are generally the ones who forget to ask for the amended level!
Regards,
Good question. DHD is absolutely spot on. We forget. When you do hear us ask for the amdned level on first contact, it'll probably be the F/O on the radio. The skippers are generally the ones who forget to ask for the amended level!
Regards,
Could be that the crew asked for a different level when they contacted departures but were told........."make that request on the next frequency........"
Happens a lot.
Happens a lot.
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Thanks one and all for the responses. It was as I had thought - brainfart! No big deal, but just the rate it happens at made me think there may be another reason.
Clearly, we are all human. If this post sticks out in peoples' minds, maybe we have achieved something!
Cheers all and happy flying. Caution: TIBA!
NFR.
Clearly, we are all human. If this post sticks out in peoples' minds, maybe we have achieved something!
Cheers all and happy flying. Caution: TIBA!
NFR.
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It doesn't piss us off (too much ). When it does happen, the response (off air of course) is usually "Well why didn't you ask for that in the first place."
Now I know - you forgot. Fair cop.
Cheers,
NFR.
). When it does happen, the response (off air of course) is usually "Well why didn't you ask for that in the first place."Now I know - you forgot. Fair cop.
Cheers,
NFR.
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NFR, it just makes the job interesting. Remember, pilots too like things such as levelling off just before getting cleared to change level, alternate speed decreases and increases, wild vectors and holding patterns. I mean really, where's the fun of flying if it's all done at the optimum cost index without delay?
