Side-slipping in light aircraft
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everyone should know how, just in case.
Could be you need it all out plus slip to make it into a spot not of your choosing ie engine failure.
Could be the only place available to land comes close to exceeding your max crosswind component and you need it to maintain control.
I reckon, use any means, fair or unfair to get it down safely.
Some time ago testing officers were failing CPL candidates for side slipping during the forced landing phase of the flight test.
You have to ask yourself....
Could be you need it all out plus slip to make it into a spot not of your choosing ie engine failure.
Could be the only place available to land comes close to exceeding your max crosswind component and you need it to maintain control.
I reckon, use any means, fair or unfair to get it down safely.
Some time ago testing officers were failing CPL candidates for side slipping during the forced landing phase of the flight test.
You have to ask yourself....
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some time ago testing officers were failing CPL candidates for side slipping during the forced landing phase of the flight test.
For example, failing someone for slipping would be surprising. But if someone demonstrates poor judgement all the way around the FLWOP pattern, culminating in being too high and needing to sideslip to make the field, perhaps a failed result might be reasonable at CPL level.
Which is why instructors get upset about student pilots using sideslip to fix up poor approaches, whether powered or unpowered.
My apologies Currawong if you are being accurate in your description of certain rogue examiners.
cheers,
O8
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All a matter of context, I think.
Like stalling in a turn.
Good thing to avoid if that is not what you want to do.
But efficient way to change direction/lose height if you know what you are doing.
Disclaimer - not in any way endorsing the practice.
Like stalling in a turn.
Good thing to avoid if that is not what you want to do.
But efficient way to change direction/lose height if you know what you are doing.
Disclaimer - not in any way endorsing the practice.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: OZ
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gday
I find it amazing all this debate, as the Australian National Competency Standards for Private & Commercial Pilots requires certain stasndards be met, before the issue of a licence. Unit 7 Execute Advanced Manoeuvres & Procedures. 7.4 Sideslip aeroplane, it then goes on with half a page of stuff to be met. If any instructor refuses to teach or discourages students from sideslipping should hand in their rating. That’s nearly as bad as those who refuse to teach spinning and spin recovery they should never had been given a rating in the first place. That should get some going. I agree that some POH do prohibit sideslipping under certain circumstances but the Cessna 150 & 152 does not with or without flap and the 172 is normally placarded avoid sideslip with flap I don’t take that a as prohibit I would certainly use sideslip in an emergency.
Cheers Q
I find it amazing all this debate, as the Australian National Competency Standards for Private & Commercial Pilots requires certain stasndards be met, before the issue of a licence. Unit 7 Execute Advanced Manoeuvres & Procedures. 7.4 Sideslip aeroplane, it then goes on with half a page of stuff to be met. If any instructor refuses to teach or discourages students from sideslipping should hand in their rating. That’s nearly as bad as those who refuse to teach spinning and spin recovery they should never had been given a rating in the first place. That should get some going. I agree that some POH do prohibit sideslipping under certain circumstances but the Cessna 150 & 152 does not with or without flap and the 172 is normally placarded avoid sideslip with flap I don’t take that a as prohibit I would certainly use sideslip in an emergency.
Cheers Q
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Great Southern Land
Age: 57
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sideslip through 180 degrees?
TMP
It's not something I thought up myself. I was given instruction in slipping in both straight and curved descents. Just as we all can fly a descending turn in balance, so should we all be able to fly a descending turning sideslip. If the aircraft can do it, no reason not to know how.
Currawong, QNIM & 7GCBC have pointed out that slipping might be needed....the best spot to put the aircraft down in a hurry mightn't be straight ahead!
I've never considered it unsafe, with the usual caveat that everything done in an aeroplane can end in tears if care isn't taken.....
Cheers
It's not something I thought up myself. I was given instruction in slipping in both straight and curved descents. Just as we all can fly a descending turn in balance, so should we all be able to fly a descending turning sideslip. If the aircraft can do it, no reason not to know how.
Currawong, QNIM & 7GCBC have pointed out that slipping might be needed....the best spot to put the aircraft down in a hurry mightn't be straight ahead!
I've never considered it unsafe, with the usual caveat that everything done in an aeroplane can end in tears if care isn't taken.....
Cheers
On PPL test, my examiner did a few things:
Closed throttle at 50 feet on takeoff from dirt strip and asked me what I was going to do now?
Asked for a demonstration of steep turns at 500 feet AGL after a practice forced landing. Worked OK.
Asked for demonstration of slip on final, and when I didn't know how to do it, he showed me. You never know when you will need it.
All survival skills that aren't in the manual, but vital things to know.
Closed throttle at 50 feet on takeoff from dirt strip and asked me what I was going to do now?
Asked for a demonstration of steep turns at 500 feet AGL after a practice forced landing. Worked OK.
Asked for demonstration of slip on final, and when I didn't know how to do it, he showed me. You never know when you will need it.
All survival skills that aren't in the manual, but vital things to know.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airspeed?
I always watched my airspeed impecaby, not necesarilly increasing it though.
I flew in a glider once, with an experienced pilot, I cocked up the approach, he took over, and put the aircraft into a sideslip, I looked at the ASI, and to my horror watched it reduce off the scale, along with the pitch up manouver... When I asked him about it, he just said, "oh, you should never look at the ASI in a slip"
That brings me to a question.... I tried it in a Citabria, not alot happened... That is stalling in a side slip...Is a sideslip a stable manouver???
ie: I would have thought that having crossed controls would be pro-spin. But it doesn't seem so...
Bag of worms????? I dunno.
I flew in a glider once, with an experienced pilot, I cocked up the approach, he took over, and put the aircraft into a sideslip, I looked at the ASI, and to my horror watched it reduce off the scale, along with the pitch up manouver... When I asked him about it, he just said, "oh, you should never look at the ASI in a slip"
That brings me to a question.... I tried it in a Citabria, not alot happened... That is stalling in a side slip...Is a sideslip a stable manouver???
ie: I would have thought that having crossed controls would be pro-spin. But it doesn't seem so...
Bag of worms????? I dunno.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would recommend that every instructor on light aircraft cover the ASI, altimeter, RPM and turn indicator with Post-it notes or something similar, at least once during a student's training during circuits. It inspires confidence on flying the aircraft by power and attitude and listening to the sounds. Seat of the pants stuff is still alive.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QNIM
I don't think anyone here is suggesting it shouldn't be taught, it's just not something that should need to be used on a daily basis as a means of losing height because you screwed the approach. Flapless approaches, forced landings etc are all taught but generally not used in day to day operations. I would say sideslipping falls into this category.
I would definitely discourage it's use for day to day approaches. It's uncomfortable, gives erroneous readings on pressure instruments, can cause engine probs as already discussed and is unnecessary. Maybe more emphasis should be placed on making students focus on their airspeed and profile rather than practicing a bail out option.
If you're flying privately however and get a kick out of sideslipping then why not? Keeping in mind that every crosswind landing is a sideslip, which I'm pretty sure is what the syllabus is getting at when it says "side slip aeroplane"
I don't think anyone here is suggesting it shouldn't be taught, it's just not something that should need to be used on a daily basis as a means of losing height because you screwed the approach. Flapless approaches, forced landings etc are all taught but generally not used in day to day operations. I would say sideslipping falls into this category.
I would definitely discourage it's use for day to day approaches. It's uncomfortable, gives erroneous readings on pressure instruments, can cause engine probs as already discussed and is unnecessary. Maybe more emphasis should be placed on making students focus on their airspeed and profile rather than practicing a bail out option.
If you're flying privately however and get a kick out of sideslipping then why not? Keeping in mind that every crosswind landing is a sideslip, which I'm pretty sure is what the syllabus is getting at when it says "side slip aeroplane"
Last edited by ovum; 29th Aug 2005 at 05:59.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Moorabbin
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have thought that having crossed controls would be pro-spin. But it doesn't seem so...
A skidding turn . Entry into a spin from this configuration, is it more "dynamic" than from a stall? This has raised my curiosity due to experiencing a considerable deceleration in a flattish skidding turn. How close was I to experiencing a departure from controlled flight. In the C172 there was no indication of approaching stall except rapid dropping of indicated airspeed. I think I will have to borrow an instructor and some altitude to see where this leads.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i was taught not to sideslip a cessna with full flap, to loose height, however on finals in a cross, cross controls are recommended as you can land in a stronger crosswind. I still love angling into the wind down finals and kicking her straight over the threshhold though.....much more comfortable and the a/c is in balance, unlike when in a slip.
Side slipping is also usefull in a FL......very usefull to be able to drop a couple of hundred feet in a slip if you are not going to make your intended field/road. You only get one chance without an engine!!
Side slipping is also usefull in a FL......very usefull to be able to drop a couple of hundred feet in a slip if you are not going to make your intended field/road. You only get one chance without an engine!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's seems they only teach crossed controls for crosswinds these days. To me it seems so much simpler to crab down finals and kick it straight.
Are training standards getting worse? the last few ppl's I've seen come through can't even land in a crosswind the crossed control way. Is it just another way of spinning out the trainng to cost more?
The only way you'll find out what the Aircraft will do in a sideslip is read the handling notes and go out with somebody expirenced and see what the Aircraft actually will do at height. Sideslipping is a good way to lose height, it was the only way with the older stuff.
Are training standards getting worse? the last few ppl's I've seen come through can't even land in a crosswind the crossed control way. Is it just another way of spinning out the trainng to cost more?
The only way you'll find out what the Aircraft will do in a sideslip is read the handling notes and go out with somebody expirenced and see what the Aircraft actually will do at height. Sideslipping is a good way to lose height, it was the only way with the older stuff.
Registered User **
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from Bellanca Citabria POM
LANDING (obstacle)
Use of normal landing procedures in addition:
1) Flaps - Full Down
2) Approach Airspeed - 60 MPH
3) Throttle as desired to control rate of Descent
4) Slip aircraft as necessary to increase rate of descent
WARNING
A relatively high rate of descent is possible in this configuration when at full gross weight and the throttle closed, If Airspeed is allowed to decrease velow 60 mph, then level off can only be assured with application of power.
That is directly from the Citabria POH (or PO Manual)
I see no reason not to slip, infact if I'm at 4500 and I need to be inbound at 1800 into a gap and I have 30sec - 1 minute to do it, I will slip at 16-1700rpm (carb on) and 70kts, and If I have no flaps then I'll use full rudder and enough stick to keep her in line, I do not however use aggressive slips with full flap as that can damage the flaps.
Cross controls ? Is this not really a slip anyway ?, I used into wind wing and opposite rudder last weekend to take the drift out, with 14deg flap on touchdown ?
I don't see a problem with this, whatever the Type as long as the POH does not prohibit ?
LANDING (obstacle)
Use of normal landing procedures in addition:
1) Flaps - Full Down
2) Approach Airspeed - 60 MPH
3) Throttle as desired to control rate of Descent
4) Slip aircraft as necessary to increase rate of descent
WARNING
A relatively high rate of descent is possible in this configuration when at full gross weight and the throttle closed, If Airspeed is allowed to decrease velow 60 mph, then level off can only be assured with application of power.
That is directly from the Citabria POH (or PO Manual)
I see no reason not to slip, infact if I'm at 4500 and I need to be inbound at 1800 into a gap and I have 30sec - 1 minute to do it, I will slip at 16-1700rpm (carb on) and 70kts, and If I have no flaps then I'll use full rudder and enough stick to keep her in line, I do not however use aggressive slips with full flap as that can damage the flaps.
Cross controls ? Is this not really a slip anyway ?, I used into wind wing and opposite rudder last weekend to take the drift out, with 14deg flap on touchdown ?
I don't see a problem with this, whatever the Type as long as the POH does not prohibit ?
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
side slip with power on
I will slip at 16-1700rpm (carb on)
I reckon its fine, use power during a sideslip(on approach) similarly to power in a normal approach. i.e. to control rod or aiming point.
Aero? Are you saying that during a side slip turn, it is more dodgy, or a skid is more dodgy? I must say that I get a tad confused with this teminology, I can't see any good reason to skid, except by mistake. Not a good reason though.
BTW, thanks for the confirmation on the side slip as being a stable manouvre.
thanks in advance...