Bank runners...how do they do this?
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Bank runners...how do they do this?
Snow down to 1000'. Sigmet for severe icing above 2500'. Freezing level 2500' Inter BKN 1500' & ice pellets at destination.
20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander. How?
20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander. How?
Dont know how you can do that in any aircraft, turboprops and jets are not certified for flight into severe icing conditions.
I feel sorry for the guys who feel the pressure ...either from the company (to get the job done)..or from within (to get more time in the book for the next career step) for think they have to fly in such conditions.
I feel sorry for the guys who feel the pressure ...either from the company (to get the job done)..or from within (to get more time in the book for the next career step) for think they have to fly in such conditions.
Apache, please tell me that was tongue in cheek?!? Irony is usually lost on me through a PC. If it wasn't:
CAR 238
It was definitely forecsat and it was definitely actually there!!
CAR 238
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not allow the aircraft to take off for a flight during which the aircraft may fly into known or expected icing conditions, if the aircraft is not adequately equipped with either de-icing or anti-icing equipment of the type and quantities directed by CASA.
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How we do it is diverting to more suitable airports and waiting for the toll people to drive to that airport and get the bank bags
Also there is no pressure at all to "get the job done". If we don't get in, we don't get in. We sometimes delay flights for hours until the weather clears. We go to IFR minima's and that's it
No one has even attempted to land in snow.
Talking about severe icing above 2500 feet, how does any IFR aircraft get anywhere (without anti icing) , not just bank runners?
Also there is no pressure at all to "get the job done". If we don't get in, we don't get in. We sometimes delay flights for hours until the weather clears. We go to IFR minima's and that's it
No one has even attempted to land in snow.
Talking about severe icing above 2500 feet, how does any IFR aircraft get anywhere (without anti icing) , not just bank runners?
yigy2
And that is the point that is being made. They shouldn’t be going anywhere except staying on the ground.
Talking about severe icing above 2500 feet, how does any IFR aircraft get anywhere (without anti icing) , not just bank runners?
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(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not allow the aircraft to take off for a flight during which the aircraft may fly into known or expected icing conditions, if the aircraft is not adequately equipped with either de-icing or anti-icing equipment of the type and quantities directed by CASA.
I realise that this is taking the LITERAL meaning of the regs, and as such may not be the INTENT, but as long as it is both SAFE and LEGAL, then there is no problem.
IF CASA wish to prosecute on the unwritten intent of their regs, then they may have a problem.
IF of course, an ACTUAL was NOT available, and said bankrunner DID enter KNOWN or EXPECTED icing conditions without DE-ICE / ANTI-ICE equipment, then they are foolhardy, illegal and dangerous.
Having re read your reply, and the conditions WERE there, then I say that he/she HAS broken the law. I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, BUT the law as stated DOES allow one to ascertain that ACTUAL conditions where you DON'T expect to enter icing conditions are legal to proceed with.
apache,
Dont read the reg 238 in isolation, reg 239 deals with flight planning "in the cases of flights away from the vicinity of an aerodrome and all I.F.R. flights", 20 minute hop is not staying in the vicinity of an aerodrome.
Reg 239 must takes into account "current weather reports and forecasts for the route to be followed and at aerodromes to be used"
With snow vis can reduce to below 50m, not VFR or IFR weather. Snow also means the OAT is not greater than 4 deg C (above 4 deg C its slush, drizzle, or rain), which means for a piston engine aircraft at least engine icing conditions.
Ice pellets to me is associated with airframe or aerial damage.
Dont read the reg 238 in isolation, reg 239 deals with flight planning "in the cases of flights away from the vicinity of an aerodrome and all I.F.R. flights", 20 minute hop is not staying in the vicinity of an aerodrome.
Reg 239 must takes into account "current weather reports and forecasts for the route to be followed and at aerodromes to be used"
With snow vis can reduce to below 50m, not VFR or IFR weather. Snow also means the OAT is not greater than 4 deg C (above 4 deg C its slush, drizzle, or rain), which means for a piston engine aircraft at least engine icing conditions.
Ice pellets to me is associated with airframe or aerial damage.
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How we do it is diverting to more suitable airports and waiting for the toll people to drive to that airport and get the bank bags
hmmm.
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How does an RPT turboprop fly to somewhere which has ice pellets forecast?
How does any aircraft fly somewhere with TS's forcast all day?
How does someone fly somewhere with fog forecast all day?
There are also other options for staying out of icing conditions such as not flying into cloud.
If we divert 40 miles to get around cloud, we do it. Toll pay for the plane anyway where ever it ends up
I can gurantee there is no pressure. Please understand this. I work in this organisation and can tell you.
I would be the first to tell you it is dodgy if it where.
Bear in mind now there is only ********, GAM, and wagga air centre that do the job now. These are good GA companies and there machines are the best I've flown. Not like the old days
We delay flights and divert, We wil take off at lunch time when it's a bit warmer if we have tol
We also ring people on the ground at these airports and get an actual weather report as well. If they say it's crap, we don't even attempt to go there
Screwed one isolated incident doesn't account for everyone
How does any aircraft fly somewhere with TS's forcast all day?
How does someone fly somewhere with fog forecast all day?
There are also other options for staying out of icing conditions such as not flying into cloud.
If we divert 40 miles to get around cloud, we do it. Toll pay for the plane anyway where ever it ends up
I can gurantee there is no pressure. Please understand this. I work in this organisation and can tell you.
I would be the first to tell you it is dodgy if it where.
Bear in mind now there is only ********, GAM, and wagga air centre that do the job now. These are good GA companies and there machines are the best I've flown. Not like the old days
We delay flights and divert, We wil take off at lunch time when it's a bit warmer if we have tol
We also ring people on the ground at these airports and get an actual weather report as well. If they say it's crap, we don't even attempt to go there
Screwed one isolated incident doesn't account for everyone
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“Snow down to 1000'. Sigmet for severe icing above 2500'. Freezing level 2500' Inter BKN 1500' & ice pellets at destination.
20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander”
Feel free to correct me, but isn’t an Aero Commander certified for flight into moderate icing conditions only?
20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander”
Feel free to correct me, but isn’t an Aero Commander certified for flight into moderate icing conditions only?
connection fee,
Icing Approval:
a. The Models 680T, 680V, 680W, and 681 may be flown through known icing conditions when equipped in accordance with Aero Caommander Service Letter No. 196.
b. The Model 690 may be flown through known icing conditions when equipped in accordance with Aero Commander Service Letter No. 241A or Drawing 890338. Flight Manual Supplement 4 dated 6/10/71 is required.
c. Models 690A and 690B are fully equipped and approved for flight into known icing. See Flight Manual (Pilots Operating Handbook) for list of required operable equipment. Safe Flight P/N C-01426 and C-01427 required to provide stall warning.
d. Model 690C Serial Numbers 11600 thru 11619 approved for flight into known icing after compliance with Rockwell Service Letter No. 329. Serial Numbers 11620 and Subs are fully equipped for flight into known icing. See Pilots Operating Handbook for list of required operable equipment.
e. Model 695, 695A, 695B and690D are fully equipped for flight into known icing. See Pilots Operating Handbook for list of required operable equipment.
I have seen 500 series about with known icing STC, however AFAIK the 500 series was never certified as such at the factory.
Icing Approval:
a. The Models 680T, 680V, 680W, and 681 may be flown through known icing conditions when equipped in accordance with Aero Caommander Service Letter No. 196.
b. The Model 690 may be flown through known icing conditions when equipped in accordance with Aero Commander Service Letter No. 241A or Drawing 890338. Flight Manual Supplement 4 dated 6/10/71 is required.
c. Models 690A and 690B are fully equipped and approved for flight into known icing. See Flight Manual (Pilots Operating Handbook) for list of required operable equipment. Safe Flight P/N C-01426 and C-01427 required to provide stall warning.
d. Model 690C Serial Numbers 11600 thru 11619 approved for flight into known icing after compliance with Rockwell Service Letter No. 329. Serial Numbers 11620 and Subs are fully equipped for flight into known icing. See Pilots Operating Handbook for list of required operable equipment.
e. Model 695, 695A, 695B and690D are fully equipped for flight into known icing. See Pilots Operating Handbook for list of required operable equipment.
I have seen 500 series about with known icing STC, however AFAIK the 500 series was never certified as such at the factory.
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Just curious why CASA hasn't nailed the freight boys if they just keep going up and collecting ice cubes.... Just a thought.
PS "DirectAnywhere" not by chance a high time instructor that loves watching charter...
PS "DirectAnywhere" not by chance a high time instructor that loves watching charter...
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How do they do it?
Easy, they can get away with it - usually. (Maybe that explains Havachat's CASA comment?)
Trouble is when one does it one day and makes it without incident, another (who is maybe less experienced), tries it the next and also gets away with it. Gets to be a competition of who is the most macho. In that situation who would want to be the one that whimps out? We just don't have a culture based on the art of leaving a bigger margin than absolutely necessary. Sure, you might think you can probably stay clear of cloud, but what if you cannot?
As for the difference between 'actual' and 'forecast', maybe one should heed the worst of either. If they are relying on that point of law, I don't fancy their chances. It aint often the Met people get that far wrong anyway.
Having said all of that, have been out west, IFR twice in the last week, just about managed to climb and descend in VMC, stayed clear of ovc cloud around Katoomba/Bathurst/Orange at 9/10,000 on both occasions, with lowest safes around 6000' and FL 4500 and below - was I legal? (Not sure I was comfortable, but I know quite a few Bankrunners who often do it - so why not? )
Easy, they can get away with it - usually. (Maybe that explains Havachat's CASA comment?)
Trouble is when one does it one day and makes it without incident, another (who is maybe less experienced), tries it the next and also gets away with it. Gets to be a competition of who is the most macho. In that situation who would want to be the one that whimps out? We just don't have a culture based on the art of leaving a bigger margin than absolutely necessary. Sure, you might think you can probably stay clear of cloud, but what if you cannot?
As for the difference between 'actual' and 'forecast', maybe one should heed the worst of either. If they are relying on that point of law, I don't fancy their chances. It aint often the Met people get that far wrong anyway.
Having said all of that, have been out west, IFR twice in the last week, just about managed to climb and descend in VMC, stayed clear of ovc cloud around Katoomba/Bathurst/Orange at 9/10,000 on both occasions, with lowest safes around 6000' and FL 4500 and below - was I legal? (Not sure I was comfortable, but I know quite a few Bankrunners who often do it - so why not? )
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Having said all of that, have been driving out west, twice in the last week, managed to rob two banks and TAB, stayed clear of the Police around Katoomba/Bathurst/Orange at 9 – 10 am on both occasions, with a 10 year jail term if caught - was I legal? (Not sure I was comfortable, but I know quite a few Bank robbers who often do it - so why not?)
You’re playing Russian Roulette, one days it’s going to be the bullet.
You’re playing Russian Roulette, one days it’s going to be the bullet.
Havachat, assume what you will, but refer to the seventh post here. Might give you some idea of what I fly and have done for several years now.
I'm just someone who spent enough time in GA - including charter - prior to my current life to know some of the s&*t that goes on.
That includes watching freight dogs departing at 10.00 pm into known icing with non-equipped aircraft because they knew no public servant would be out of their bed at that time of night.
I'm just someone who spent enough time in GA - including charter - prior to my current life to know some of the s&*t that goes on.
That includes watching freight dogs departing at 10.00 pm into known icing with non-equipped aircraft because they knew no public servant would be out of their bed at that time of night.