Bank runners...how do they do this?
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To yigy2
Mate you may well work in this organisation but that does not mean for one second that you know what goes on at other bases,you presumably work out of BK,so are you involved in the inner workings of all five other bases.I think Not
I can tell YOU there is pressure, and corner cutting and good cause for questions on this subject.
I can tell YOU there is pressure, and corner cutting and good cause for questions on this subject.
Last edited by rearwhelsteer888; 16th Aug 2005 at 22:58.
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Freight from Bankstown
TOLL won’t let you go unless they have called the landing end and clarified that you will get in. No one wants to waste money holding in sh!tty weather or holding in low temps were icing can be a problem. Last week I flew over the ranges and cruised free of ice then on descent picked up a little. Part of the story. I understand that some might suggest that i shouldn’t have descended through a little cloud that was hovering just below zero. Not all times below zero in cloud you will collect frightening amounts of ice - Bet it didn’t say that in the textbooks.
As far as being a bank runner goes, Toll are a lot more worried about the weather at the other end than at any charter IFR/VFR organisation I have worked for previously. Barry the papa smurf at Bankstown toll takes care for us all and they want us to be efficient but holding on the ground burns far less cash for the company than diverting due to icing or not getting visual or thunderstorms etc. This is done by calling operators at the landing end and also the toll staff on the ground.
It surprises me that GAM at other ports feel "pressure to go" - learn to say "no". This could be a factor of Toll at that particular port too.
Thankyou for all those people who have taken time to write there 2 cents worth in regard to the safety of bank runners. I didn’t know that peopled cared. Cheers and shucks for your concern
Any way I wouldn’t want to fly an aero commander either.....jokes
TOLL won’t let you go unless they have called the landing end and clarified that you will get in. No one wants to waste money holding in sh!tty weather or holding in low temps were icing can be a problem. Last week I flew over the ranges and cruised free of ice then on descent picked up a little. Part of the story. I understand that some might suggest that i shouldn’t have descended through a little cloud that was hovering just below zero. Not all times below zero in cloud you will collect frightening amounts of ice - Bet it didn’t say that in the textbooks.
As far as being a bank runner goes, Toll are a lot more worried about the weather at the other end than at any charter IFR/VFR organisation I have worked for previously. Barry the papa smurf at Bankstown toll takes care for us all and they want us to be efficient but holding on the ground burns far less cash for the company than diverting due to icing or not getting visual or thunderstorms etc. This is done by calling operators at the landing end and also the toll staff on the ground.
It surprises me that GAM at other ports feel "pressure to go" - learn to say "no". This could be a factor of Toll at that particular port too.
Thankyou for all those people who have taken time to write there 2 cents worth in regard to the safety of bank runners. I didn’t know that peopled cared. Cheers and shucks for your concern
Any way I wouldn’t want to fly an aero commander either.....jokes
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to rearwhelsteer888
mate, that is correct
Knowing everyone who personally flies out of the BK base, I know there is no pressure from that base only
As far as other bases go, I have no idea as I have not seen it so I can't comment
Knowing everyone who personally flies out of the BK base, I know there is no pressure from that base only
As far as other bases go, I have no idea as I have not seen it so I can't comment
As someone who also flies for the organisation mentioned I can also state that I have never experienced any pressure to break any rules/ laws etc. And I am not in the bases mentioned !!
The ' pressure ', if any ,only comes from me to myself. The occasional courier may need a slap to remember their place but TOLL are good. Gee this must be a disappointing read for the seemingly numerous self righteous bores who think by writing their tripe on this site they are doing their bit to improve the industry. The same tired old names, same tired old cr*p. First time posting on this site for me, and , as I have a life, probably one of the last. But, as previously mentioned, it sure is nice to know people care. Shucks too.
The ' pressure ', if any ,only comes from me to myself. The occasional courier may need a slap to remember their place but TOLL are good. Gee this must be a disappointing read for the seemingly numerous self righteous bores who think by writing their tripe on this site they are doing their bit to improve the industry. The same tired old names, same tired old cr*p. First time posting on this site for me, and , as I have a life, probably one of the last. But, as previously mentioned, it sure is nice to know people care. Shucks too.
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Snow down to 1000'. Sigmet for severe icing above 2500'. Freezing level 2500' Inter BKN 1500' & ice pellets at destination. 20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander. How?
In a Aero Commander. How?
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Always know what your own comfort level is, grow a spine so you will stick to it and go out and get the job done to the best of YOUR ability.
Use the judgement you are expected to possess and respect the regs but don't fly in fear of them. The expert witness in any courtcase will be the guy in the left hand seat, not the guy with the funny wig asking the questions........and yes I have seen it first hand more than once.
Use the judgement you are expected to possess and respect the regs but don't fly in fear of them. The expert witness in any courtcase will be the guy in the left hand seat, not the guy with the funny wig asking the questions........and yes I have seen it first hand more than once.
Hey Screwed !
Where did this happen? If it was where I think it was (SW Vic).
I was flying a VFR nav training flight on that cold day, the TAF was the same as you quoted but the actuals were no where as bad. Bit of light snow thats all,vis greater than 10K. The only ice I got was in my bundy and coke at the pub later that night.
Get a life..............
Where did this happen? If it was where I think it was (SW Vic).
I was flying a VFR nav training flight on that cold day, the TAF was the same as you quoted but the actuals were no where as bad. Bit of light snow thats all,vis greater than 10K. The only ice I got was in my bundy and coke at the pub later that night.
Get a life..............
screwed!
I remember talking to a few people that did bankruns in the bad old days and was quite turned off by what they said.
However, things have definitely changed, these guys are surprised to hear that these days there is nowhere near the pressure there used to be and in fact there is a culture of compliance with the rules rather than a culture of bending them for maximum benefit. They're also surprised to hear that aeroplanes and pilots alike are well looked after.
There are many misconceptions out there about this gig with things that have happened in the past......but these days they're just simply not true.
However, things have definitely changed, these guys are surprised to hear that these days there is nowhere near the pressure there used to be and in fact there is a culture of compliance with the rules rather than a culture of bending them for maximum benefit. They're also surprised to hear that aeroplanes and pilots alike are well looked after.
There are many misconceptions out there about this gig with things that have happened in the past......but these days they're just simply not true.
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In the old days there was probably more pressure to get in and to go regardless of conditions cause of the high ineterest rates of the time. The banks needed to get the paperwork sooner so they could make more money. I think there were more turbines floating round then too. eg MU2s etc - now theres a story on ice build up!!!!
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I heard this little gem a while ago about the "halcyon days" of bankrunning, where TNT wouldn't give a stuff about pilot nor plane - they just wanted you airborne:
we all agree that when dtermining whether there is "more than 4/8s of cloud at destination, then "Few + Scattered = Broken? "
The Bankrunners AIP ?
"few at 500' + scattered at 700' = Broken at 1200' "?
we all agree that when dtermining whether there is "more than 4/8s of cloud at destination, then "Few + Scattered = Broken? "
The Bankrunners AIP ?
"few at 500' + scattered at 700' = Broken at 1200' "?
Just Binos
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FWIW, a close friend of mine got her first IFR job with GAM. They paid award wages, and when she got the job, the chief said to her, "*****, I don't ever want to have to ring your father and tell him you ploughed into the side of a mountain trying to deliver bits of paper". She was impressed and so was I, and no, she didn't work out of Bankstown.
If more GA companies were as scrupulous as GAM, the industry would be in better shape. If a few rogue pilots want to wave their willies by doing stupid things, I believe you will find it's not under pressure from the company; much more likely their own egos.
If more GA companies were as scrupulous as GAM, the industry would be in better shape. If a few rogue pilots want to wave their willies by doing stupid things, I believe you will find it's not under pressure from the company; much more likely their own egos.
Read in a US airline safety magazine that the ice protection system on big jets is essentially designed to handle rime icing conditions. It stated that mixed and clear icing conditions can exceed the design limits of the aircraft ice protection system. Reason is that rime ice are relatively low levels of liquid water and as such the ice will confine itself to leading edges. The ice protection systems can remove or prevent it.
On the other hand,mixed and clear ice are associated with precipitation - size drops and relatively high quantities of liquid water. These conditions can deposit ice on and AFT of your leading edges and when this happens your ice protection system cannot remove the aft portion of the ice because it was never designed to handle this type of ice.
Does this principle apply to GA aircraft in Australia that are equipped to fly in icing conditions? If so, seems to me that a thorough study of the icing forecast and types is vital to safe operation.
On the other hand,mixed and clear ice are associated with precipitation - size drops and relatively high quantities of liquid water. These conditions can deposit ice on and AFT of your leading edges and when this happens your ice protection system cannot remove the aft portion of the ice because it was never designed to handle this type of ice.
Does this principle apply to GA aircraft in Australia that are equipped to fly in icing conditions? If so, seems to me that a thorough study of the icing forecast and types is vital to safe operation.
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swh,
Very good dissertation on Aero Commander pedigree.
Unfortunately not completely correct. Your attention is drawn to BASI Investigation Report 9402804 appertaining to Aero Commander 690B c/n11380, VH-SFG, wherein it states
"In service operation of the aircraft found that flame out from icing occured under conditions that were not originally thought to be conducive to a flameout"
But further on in the report,
" Given the ambiguous instructions contained within both airworthiness directives, it is unreasonable to expect that any person associated with the maintenance or operation of SVQ would have been aware that the aircraft was not appropriately equipped for continuous operation in icing conditions"
Prospector
Very good dissertation on Aero Commander pedigree.
Unfortunately not completely correct. Your attention is drawn to BASI Investigation Report 9402804 appertaining to Aero Commander 690B c/n11380, VH-SFG, wherein it states
"In service operation of the aircraft found that flame out from icing occured under conditions that were not originally thought to be conducive to a flameout"
But further on in the report,
" Given the ambiguous instructions contained within both airworthiness directives, it is unreasonable to expect that any person associated with the maintenance or operation of SVQ would have been aware that the aircraft was not appropriately equipped for continuous operation in icing conditions"
Prospector
prospector,
Things have changed since, the FAA AD changed, and the flight manual has chaged. From memory the aircraft had complied with the AD at the time of the accident, however the AD had a flaw in it.
The original certification basis listed before is correct, the AD addresses some engine issues to meet that certification basis.
Things have changed since, the FAA AD changed, and the flight manual has chaged. From memory the aircraft had complied with the AD at the time of the accident, however the AD had a flaw in it.
The original certification basis listed before is correct, the AD addresses some engine issues to meet that certification basis.
Last edited by swh; 22nd Aug 2005 at 03:15.
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swh,
Just as an aide- memoir, some of the findings relative to icing.
15. All airworthiness directives applicable to the aircraft had been certified as having been completed.
16. The engines of the aircraft were not correctly modified to allow continuous flight in icing conditions.
17. Airworthiness directives issued by the Federal Aviation Administration and Civil Aviation Authority did not correctly specify the engine modifications to be completed before allowing flight in icing conditions.
Perhaps the original certification for Flight in known ice for the 690B was premature??
Prospector
Just as an aide- memoir, some of the findings relative to icing.
15. All airworthiness directives applicable to the aircraft had been certified as having been completed.
16. The engines of the aircraft were not correctly modified to allow continuous flight in icing conditions.
17. Airworthiness directives issued by the Federal Aviation Administration and Civil Aviation Authority did not correctly specify the engine modifications to be completed before allowing flight in icing conditions.
Perhaps the original certification for Flight in known ice for the 690B was premature??
Prospector
Last edited by prospector; 22nd Aug 2005 at 05:01.