"Short Field" Touch and Go?
Thread Starter
"Short Field" Touch and Go?
One thing that bugs me is the practice of doing short field touch and go's on short (750m) gravel strips. I have some misgivings about the safety of doing this.
I've done the numbers for the aircraft concerned and the strip is acceptable for short field takeoOff OR Landing.
However, doing a short field touch and go bothers me because after landing with full flap, you have to select the correct takeoff flap by feel (Piper Arrow 25 deg., or Cessna zero or ten deg.depending on model)), without taking your eyes off the strip, keep it straight on the gravel and select full power.
Now I've had one expereince with a Cessna flap switch that almost got the pair of us doing this manoeuvre (C150's don't fly well at all with 40 deg) and I'm wondering if the exercise isn't a little more risky than it needs to be. One or two little mistakes and you are through the fence or into the trees.
It appears to make more sense to me to do a full stop short field landing followed by a short field takeoff. OK, it takes longer, but I think it provides better training and even the opportunity of a cup of tea or a loo stop.
I also wonder if its better training as well as less risky. Assuming I've done a reasonable prec search and cleared off the Emu's and roo's, why would I want to do a go around after touching down on terra firma in the right location? Well if I bounce I might want to go around, but I'm airborne when I start the procedure.
Assuming it is something that needs practice, I think one needs to be very very clear when the decision must be made to reject or continue the takeoff, and I think there is a great deal of room for confusion here. I'm not sure how to deal with this possibility.
For example the strip has a decision point midway by which one is required to have full power for a go around. Well what if you don't? I think a conscious decision has to be taken somewhere to continue the takeoff or start braking immediately.
Similar decision for a late touchdown.
To put it another way, are we training to do a go around? If so, and we stuff it up, shouldn't the corrective action be brake and stop?
Over to you.
I've done the numbers for the aircraft concerned and the strip is acceptable for short field takeoOff OR Landing.
However, doing a short field touch and go bothers me because after landing with full flap, you have to select the correct takeoff flap by feel (Piper Arrow 25 deg., or Cessna zero or ten deg.depending on model)), without taking your eyes off the strip, keep it straight on the gravel and select full power.
Now I've had one expereince with a Cessna flap switch that almost got the pair of us doing this manoeuvre (C150's don't fly well at all with 40 deg) and I'm wondering if the exercise isn't a little more risky than it needs to be. One or two little mistakes and you are through the fence or into the trees.
It appears to make more sense to me to do a full stop short field landing followed by a short field takeoff. OK, it takes longer, but I think it provides better training and even the opportunity of a cup of tea or a loo stop.
I also wonder if its better training as well as less risky. Assuming I've done a reasonable prec search and cleared off the Emu's and roo's, why would I want to do a go around after touching down on terra firma in the right location? Well if I bounce I might want to go around, but I'm airborne when I start the procedure.
Assuming it is something that needs practice, I think one needs to be very very clear when the decision must be made to reject or continue the takeoff, and I think there is a great deal of room for confusion here. I'm not sure how to deal with this possibility.
For example the strip has a decision point midway by which one is required to have full power for a go around. Well what if you don't? I think a conscious decision has to be taken somewhere to continue the takeoff or start braking immediately.
Similar decision for a late touchdown.
To put it another way, are we training to do a go around? If so, and we stuff it up, shouldn't the corrective action be brake and stop?
Over to you.
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A short field go around I can understand, but a short field touch & go seems like a pretty pointless exercise.
I would have thought the idea was to bring the aircraft to a full stop in the shortest distance and then backtrack and do a short field take off. I can't really see the problem flap wise,especially with a fixed undercarriage machine. Nothing near the flap selector to confuse you. Perhaps in a retractable you would need to be pretty careful what switch you were moving but in a fixed U/C model there's only one switch to choose from.
[QUOTE]Now I've had one expereince with a Cessna flap switch that almost got the pair of us doing this manoeuvre
Sounds like the mistake everyone makes only once- "55kts, starting to climb out-flaps up" Whoops!
I would have thought the idea was to bring the aircraft to a full stop in the shortest distance and then backtrack and do a short field take off. I can't really see the problem flap wise,especially with a fixed undercarriage machine. Nothing near the flap selector to confuse you. Perhaps in a retractable you would need to be pretty careful what switch you were moving but in a fixed U/C model there's only one switch to choose from.
[QUOTE]Now I've had one expereince with a Cessna flap switch that almost got the pair of us doing this manoeuvre
Sounds like the mistake everyone makes only once- "55kts, starting to climb out-flaps up" Whoops!
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I actually think T'nG's at short fields are much safer initially if you're intention is not to land you can set yourself up for a "trial" approach, see what the last 200agl feel like, check the drift, float, wind, obstacles, surface, and then see where your aim point would be, if you get it wrong, no dramas you still have the kinetic to fly away.
I think rocking up and saying from the word go that "I am going to Land no matter what" is challenging fate,
and as we all probably know fate is female, and does not discriminate......
I think rocking up and saying from the word go that "I am going to Land no matter what" is challenging fate,
and as we all probably know fate is female, and does not discriminate......
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The Oaks is only 300mtrs ???, ah Ultralights , it has got to be longer than that, I thought its about 450-500-even 600+ at least ?.
back in 2 mins ...................
NSW Bush trip guide says OAKS is 850, prob more like 750 to 800 useable.
06/24 @ Katoomba is (was) good fun, 900mtrs, bubbly off all ends, trees all around, ................like being alive!
back in 2 mins ...................
NSW Bush trip guide says OAKS is 850, prob more like 750 to 800 useable.
06/24 @ Katoomba is (was) good fun, 900mtrs, bubbly off all ends, trees all around, ................like being alive!
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try landing at cockatoo island, 500m strip and you gotto launch of the third humpty do....
Short field is awesome fun, nice flat approach using full flap and lots of power to keep the AS on the nail, and you never need 40 in a 150, 30 is more than enough, i flew a 150 aerobat with 40 of flap and it was a complete waste of time.
If you have a long enough strip, short field prac is awesome for stop n go's
Short field is awesome fun, nice flat approach using full flap and lots of power to keep the AS on the nail, and you never need 40 in a 150, 30 is more than enough, i flew a 150 aerobat with 40 of flap and it was a complete waste of time.
If you have a long enough strip, short field prac is awesome for stop n go's
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Ah yes....good ol' Cockatoo Island. Used to love watching the boys come into land there...and then watch them scream past the parking pad! 
While the landing was fun, the takeoff was where you really sat up and took notice; especially right on max weight for the strip in a 210...
The other short strip, which is only down the "road" from Cockatoo is Koolan. Actual runway length is 530m (as opposed to Cockatoo's 730m), but it was the trees on both strips that cut down the useable length.
While the landing was fun, the takeoff was where you really sat up and took notice; especially right on max weight for the strip in a 210... The other short strip, which is only down the "road" from Cockatoo is Koolan. Actual runway length is 530m (as opposed to Cockatoo's 730m), but it was the trees on both strips that cut down the useable length.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all your comments. This is the first thread I've ever seen where a group of pilots are bragging "mine's smaller than yours"
Seriously, to a lowly mug PPL holder, it is a small strip, since most of my flying has been at MB. I've been into and out of it now quite a few times now, and it does look tiny with real obstacles at each end.
Now dropping in at say 65 knots you are doing about 33 m/sec. Assuming you land 10m in, you have 740 left and about 12 seconds to the halfway point - by which time you need full power on and have the flaps at 25 degrees. I've done it in the past no problems.
However, the point of my post is not about the length of the strip as such, but about the correct procedure to minimise the risk of "Go around! - No Brake!" type accidents, exactly like the QF 747 at Bangkok in miniature.
In the absence of advice to the contrary, it's full power three seconds after touchdown, and then get rid of some flap.
Seriously, to a lowly mug PPL holder, it is a small strip, since most of my flying has been at MB. I've been into and out of it now quite a few times now, and it does look tiny with real obstacles at each end.
Now dropping in at say 65 knots you are doing about 33 m/sec. Assuming you land 10m in, you have 740 left and about 12 seconds to the halfway point - by which time you need full power on and have the flaps at 25 degrees. I've done it in the past no problems.
However, the point of my post is not about the length of the strip as such, but about the correct procedure to minimise the risk of "Go around! - No Brake!" type accidents, exactly like the QF 747 at Bangkok in miniature.
In the absence of advice to the contrary, it's full power three seconds after touchdown, and then get rid of some flap.
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Hey Sunfish, I'll bet after a few touch and go's your ability to touch down on an aiming point will be much improved as well as your approach and power management.
As for short field landing practice...anyone can jump on the brakes and pull back on the stick after touchdown, the tricky part is landing in the place you intended.
As for short field landing practice...anyone can jump on the brakes and pull back on the stick after touchdown, the tricky part is landing in the place you intended.
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SUNFISH
25 of flap in a 150?
no wonder you are struggling, should have 10 at most, i never even use flap for t/o in a 150, especially when doing a t&g
if you do a short field with a stop and go you will drop 10 and sit brake before you start to roll, most 150's have 3 stages, 10/20/30, although some of the older cessnas have 10/20/30/40 but you can go half way between a stage.
Taking off with 25 is going to get you killed as you will have no climb peformance and when you dump a bit of flap you will be low slow and sink like a brick....
EDIT: sorry sunfish, i didnt realise you were talking about the piper with the 25....
25 of flap in a 150?
no wonder you are struggling, should have 10 at most, i never even use flap for t/o in a 150, especially when doing a t&g
if you do a short field with a stop and go you will drop 10 and sit brake before you start to roll, most 150's have 3 stages, 10/20/30, although some of the older cessnas have 10/20/30/40 but you can go half way between a stage.
Taking off with 25 is going to get you killed as you will have no climb peformance and when you dump a bit of flap you will be low slow and sink like a brick....
EDIT: sorry sunfish, i didnt realise you were talking about the piper with the 25....
Last edited by 4SPOOLED; 6th Aug 2005 at 07:22.
