Changing Industry
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Changing Industry
Well i think its pretty easy to see that the industry is changing! The days are gone when a CFI could walk out to a tree and shake out half a dozen instructors. However are the small "old ways" flying schools keeping up with the times? It seems not! The likes of TVSA/BMSA are well known for exploiting junior instructors. To many "Happy to be" ex-employees of the company
have had little good to say about the operation, it seems that they should trade the gold bars for clown costumes which is more indicitive of their place in the industry. From what i've heard, i'd caution anyone seeking a first job.
They're not alone unfortunately. Other operators should take a good look around and adjust with the times.
Instructors don't have to be treated like S**T anymore for very little money...sorry guys thats just the way it is!
have had little good to say about the operation, it seems that they should trade the gold bars for clown costumes which is more indicitive of their place in the industry. From what i've heard, i'd caution anyone seeking a first job.
They're not alone unfortunately. Other operators should take a good look around and adjust with the times.
Instructors don't have to be treated like S**T anymore for very little money...sorry guys thats just the way it is!
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Well well well sounds like im not the only one "disillusioned" with this particular operator.
My initial circuits were flown in a 25 kt crosswind. My instructor admitted that the only reason why he was flying with me in these conditions was so he could by dinner that night!!!
I did some maths and worked out his hourly pay rate per week for that week.... try $2.50 an hour.
How is any operator supposed to deliver quality training when their staff get payed less than an acne covered teenaged burger flipper!!!!!!!!!
A note to any operator; wake up and smell the coffee, you want our business, you deliver the goods!!!!
My initial circuits were flown in a 25 kt crosswind. My instructor admitted that the only reason why he was flying with me in these conditions was so he could by dinner that night!!!
I did some maths and worked out his hourly pay rate per week for that week.... try $2.50 an hour.
How is any operator supposed to deliver quality training when their staff get payed less than an acne covered teenaged burger flipper!!!!!!!!!
A note to any operator; wake up and smell the coffee, you want our business, you deliver the goods!!!!
Join Date: May 2005
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I put something similar on a post about homosexual Australian pilots, but it applies equally to junior instructors.
Flying schools make their $$$ hiring aircraft and instructors by the hour.
So, if they don't have critical mass they can't pay a wage.
To get critical mass they need more students or more hire.
Add to that the 'oversupply' of young instructors, mostly with 200 hours and you have a supply/demand inequality which means you are not worth the $$$ of the teenage burger flipper (critical mass!!!).
Now look at it this way.
Make CPLs 500 hours. Require 200 hours cross country. Allow the rest on a PPL Instructor rating (after the 200 x-c).
Now you have done two things, reduced supply (not as many CPLs can afford this, but I suppose you have increased supply of burger flippers).
Increased hire. The 200 can be solo, but the plane is still hired.
Reduced cost. The PPL fles for less than the burger flipper but must be supervised. More students can afford to fly. So more HOURLY $$$ salary for the 'qualified instructor'.
Oh, and if you get rid of 'issued by CASA' CFIs and just set a standard, then instructing can become a profession instead of just another form of CASA nepotism.
Oh, one last point to head of the expected ranting, young CPL's attitude to GA and training is what scares off many students. You ain't gods (you ain't even a god's toenail) and you NEED them if you want a decent wage. So wise up a bit.
Barry
Flying schools make their $$$ hiring aircraft and instructors by the hour.
So, if they don't have critical mass they can't pay a wage.
To get critical mass they need more students or more hire.
Add to that the 'oversupply' of young instructors, mostly with 200 hours and you have a supply/demand inequality which means you are not worth the $$$ of the teenage burger flipper (critical mass!!!).
Now look at it this way.
Make CPLs 500 hours. Require 200 hours cross country. Allow the rest on a PPL Instructor rating (after the 200 x-c).
Now you have done two things, reduced supply (not as many CPLs can afford this, but I suppose you have increased supply of burger flippers).
Increased hire. The 200 can be solo, but the plane is still hired.
Reduced cost. The PPL fles for less than the burger flipper but must be supervised. More students can afford to fly. So more HOURLY $$$ salary for the 'qualified instructor'.
Oh, and if you get rid of 'issued by CASA' CFIs and just set a standard, then instructing can become a profession instead of just another form of CASA nepotism.
Oh, one last point to head of the expected ranting, young CPL's attitude to GA and training is what scares off many students. You ain't gods (you ain't even a god's toenail) and you NEED them if you want a decent wage. So wise up a bit.
Barry
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most instructors are just passing on what got dished out to them when they were training..its a time honoured tradition..just go take a ride with a big schools CFI if you want to see where the attitude comes from
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Mate I know.
My daughter was learning to fly as YSBK, except some sleaze bag instructor though it his right to hit on her.
Now she learns with a 'real' instructor ay YMER.
My wife was contemplating learning at YSBK, then the same pimply faced idiot tried to crack on to her at a party. (My daughter pointed this out to her mum).
Now she learns at YMER.
Now this guy seems to think that being an instructor makes him somehow 'special' while in both cases the 'women' just thought he was a w@anker.
What he has done though is cost this school big $$$$
Barry
My daughter was learning to fly as YSBK, except some sleaze bag instructor though it his right to hit on her.
Now she learns with a 'real' instructor ay YMER.
My wife was contemplating learning at YSBK, then the same pimply faced idiot tried to crack on to her at a party. (My daughter pointed this out to her mum).
Now she learns at YMER.
Now this guy seems to think that being an instructor makes him somehow 'special' while in both cases the 'women' just thought he was a w@anker.
What he has done though is cost this school big $$$$
Barry
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DYNAMIC STALL, I like your post and agree with you, however; the working condition to which I refer to do not include such things as pay, hours etc (I wasnt trying to imply that it was, just bad wording on my part). What I was in fact referring to was the treatment of staff at TVSA. I have heard from a couple of people (whom I trust and usually dont have a bad word to say about anybody) that working at TVSA was awful due to management treating staff like crap. Does good treatment included yelling and demeaning instructors in front of other staff and students over trivial matters such as forgetting to tick a box to let other know you made a phone call? Does good treatment include reprimanding an instructor because they didnt want the instructor to do a briefing for the student, they just wanted to get the aircraft in the air so they could make money? While I agree that a brand new CPL isnt very employable, thats not to say that they have to be treated in such a way because of that fact.
I think you get the drift of what im saying. On the up side of that, the quantity of hours and pay was very good, so i wasnt trying to imply anything on that part. There is however a limit with what people will put up with, and as history has shown, most instructors at TVSA dont last very long and are usually replaced quick smart by someone who doesnt know what theyre getting themselves in for. It doesnt matter what industry you're working in, be it burger flippers or pilots, if you treat your staff bad theyre not going to be around for very long.
Just a heads up for anybody who is considering TVSA as a job. They will be really nice to you on the phone and interview. As soon as you start, get ready to be treated like crap. Don't use them as a reference as they will bag you out something awful, however; if it makes them look good (ie, youre now flying for QANTAS) they will turn around and tell all their students that their previous student so and so is flying for QANTAS and how proud they are and what a good pilot he/she is...etc etc.
I really only posted in this thread to begin with to see if management are still up to their old antics, however; something tells me someone new is running the show? Maybe things have improved for the better, we can only hope.
I have heard that TVSA have threatened legal action in the past over a few posts, so ill be interested to see if this lasts.
I think you get the drift of what im saying. On the up side of that, the quantity of hours and pay was very good, so i wasnt trying to imply anything on that part. There is however a limit with what people will put up with, and as history has shown, most instructors at TVSA dont last very long and are usually replaced quick smart by someone who doesnt know what theyre getting themselves in for. It doesnt matter what industry you're working in, be it burger flippers or pilots, if you treat your staff bad theyre not going to be around for very long.
Just a heads up for anybody who is considering TVSA as a job. They will be really nice to you on the phone and interview. As soon as you start, get ready to be treated like crap. Don't use them as a reference as they will bag you out something awful, however; if it makes them look good (ie, youre now flying for QANTAS) they will turn around and tell all their students that their previous student so and so is flying for QANTAS and how proud they are and what a good pilot he/she is...etc etc.
I really only posted in this thread to begin with to see if management are still up to their old antics, however; something tells me someone new is running the show? Maybe things have improved for the better, we can only hope.
I have heard that TVSA have threatened legal action in the past over a few posts, so ill be interested to see if this lasts.
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Well if that is the case then it is just unprofessional and that organisation will fail.
People with the money to learn to fly, or even instructors, are generally not idiots (my previous reference to LG aside) and won't abide by that sort of treatment.
But then, I don't know who TVSA are.
Barry
People with the money to learn to fly, or even instructors, are generally not idiots (my previous reference to LG aside) and won't abide by that sort of treatment.
But then, I don't know who TVSA are.
Barry
